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It's a Mall World After All

Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average.
by , 06-29-2011 at 09:43 PM


Los Angeles is as much a state of mind as it is a physical place. Where we shop, dine, and gather is a reflection of our community and us. Los Angeles is a land where Hollywood set designers build houses, architects design movie sets, and many of our most cherished “public” spaces are privately owned and operated. In Los Angeles, anything is possible.

In 1965, architect Charles Moore declared that in Los Angeles “you have to pay for the public life.” This is a region “in terms of the traditions we have inherited” where “hardly anybody gives anything to the public realm.” Journalist Carey McWilliams called Los Angeles an “improbable” place not destined to succeed, but determined to do so.

The planners, architects, dreamers, and schemers who built this region have created entertainment retail centers where it has always been less about the location and more about the destination. They are constantly reinventing the formula to stay one step ahead of a fickle public. These facilities provide entertainment to the masses while achieving the highest possible return for its owners and developers.



Los Angeles has long been a pioneer in the development of entertainment retail centers. The addiction began early on. The Broadway-Crenshaw Center opened in 1947 and is considered one of the earliest suburban retail centers in the United States anchored by a supermarket. When the Lakewood Center opened in 1952, the region had its first mall-type shopping complex.



When Victor Gruen designed the Northland Mall near Detroit built in 1954 and the enclosed Southdale
Mall near Edina, Minnesota built in 1956, he was trying to create a new kind of communal space for post-war America. Many of his imitators only saw these structures as machines for making money. Like other parts of the country, Los Angeles has seen its fair share of uninspired, boring, formula driven boxes of mass consumption.

Los Angeles always marched to a different tune. Where we choose to shop, dine, and be entertained would be no exception. The polycentric region was not built around one central commercial business district like more traditional cities. In Los Angeles, we had to invent the places we wanted to visit.



The first center that tried to break the mold was CityWalk at Universal City in 1993. German-Jewish immigrant Carl Lamellae founded Universal City in 1915 for the sole purpose of making motion pictures. The property grew from 230-acres to more then 425-acres with the additions of a popular studio tour and theme park added in 1964 and a live concert venue in 1972. Universal Studios was becoming more then just a movie studio. It was becoming a major entertainment destination.

By 1989, legendary entertainment mogul and head of Universal Studios Lew Wasserman hired architect Jon Jerde to draft a master plan for the property to capitalize on this momentum. Jerde’s reputation was growing due to his simple, yet effective architectural elements for the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic as well as the Horton Plaza shopping center in the Gaslamp District in downtown San Diego. Horton Plaza would become a catalyst for the revitalization of that city’s urban core.

A major component of the master plan was an entertainment retail center to be called CityWalk. In a Los Angeles Times interview Jerde said, “I saw CityWalk as a venue for human intercourse.” He agreed with Charles Moore and said, “All America is now private except for profit centers” and only “New York and San Francisco held on to more foot driven aspects of human interaction, but most of the country has been given over to separateness and loneliness.” He wanted to create something that was different and not just another decorated shed laminated in a historical or fashionable model. Jerde said, “Our enemies are artifice and the ersatz [with] fake this and that, like those theme restaurants. But people reject it. It’s exceedingly difficult to make sure that what you do isn’t exceedingly synthetic and contrived.”
CityWalk’s first phase opened in 1993. Jerde created a two block long pedestrian “street” that was influenced by hill towns in Italy such as Tuscany as well as North Beach in San Francisco. The street is functional and connects the parking structures required by this isolated, compact hilly site to the theme park’s front gate.



Jerde said, “CityWalk had to be appropriately built on the architectural language of L.A., as opposed to New York or Paris. And the language of L.A. is that there is no language except stucco buildings and layers put upon them. So the thematic element is layering.” Juxtaposed facades, historic neon signs, and billboards frame the narrow street, which Jerde says creates “a sequential plan of orchestrated events.” The massing of the buildings came from computer-compiled traces of local architecture. No one building is replicated. Instead you have a collage of images and traits of the city. Jerde wanted a space that is “self-consciously designed” yet tries to appear to have grown organically. CityWalk does feels energetic, bordering on chaotic, as it tries to echo the visual chaos of a complete city within the space of a few yards. The street leads to a large central plaza capped by a steel-web canopy. Within this multi-story space are an interactive fountain by WET Design and a second level of nightclubs and restaurants dubbed CityLoft. CityWalk is more then just shopping and dining. More then a third of the 540,000 square foot building area is dedicated to offices and a satellite college campus.

CityWalk’s second phase opened in 2000 and is best experienced at night. Lighting is used as the signature architectural component. Los Angeles Times critic Nicolai Ouroussoff suggested “the new structures offer fewer architectural quotations, leaning toward a more abstract aesthetic” with “images distilled from Los Angeles’ own peculiar landscape of fantasy.” He says, “the effect is a ‘Blade Runner’-like collage of commercial images, a tensely energetic mix of fantasy and reality.”
CityWalk is not without its detractors. Cultural critic Norman Klein said that the shopping center is “a Victorian-style separation of classes in our public life” while writer Lewis Lapham said the it was for consumers that “had no intention of going to see the original city fours miles to the south.” Scholar Mike Davis said, “It fulfills our worst prophecies.”

Jerde would depend on a sense of randomness, surprise, and disorder. Universal’s long-time competitor, The Walt Disney Company, would go in a different direction with Downtown Disney in Anaheim. The entertainment retail center opened in 2001 as part of a major expansion of the Disneyland Resort that included a new theme park and a hotel.



John Hench, 65-year Disney veteran, said, “The whole ‘malling of America,’ I think is the expression – comes from Main Street here in Disneyland. They suddenly discovered that they could build a shopping mall and make it work a lot better by observing what happened here.” However, he said, “Their observation is only partial, it didn’t penetrate too deeply, but they knew they wanted to make sense of the place.”

Hench explained that Disneyland worked “simply because every member of the thing, every facility, agrees on what the place is. One building recognizes the existence of the other. There’s plenty of diversity, but there isn’t contradiction.” He said, “Most urban environments are basically chaotic places, as architectural and graphic information scream at the citizen for attention. This competition results in disharmonies and contradictions that…cancel each other [out].” He warns, “A journey down almost any urban street will quickly place the visitor into visual overload as all of the competing messages merge into a kind of information gridlock.”

Hench taught his designers that architectural chaos “does have some stimulation to it because it’s a threat – you’re stimulated by a threat, but how long can you continue that?” He proposed, “We stimulate them with another kind of emotion, with the kind of stimulus that says, ‘You’re going to be okay.’ It’s the stimulation you get out of a party or a fiesta, or having fresh-killed game. The primitive thing – we all eat again.” The result is “not a threat, it’s the reverse.” This advice would become the model that most developers would follow.



Downtown Disney has none of the harsh edges to be found at CityWalk. Timur Galen of Walt Disney Imagineering said the district “possesses its own unique ‘sense of place,’ evoking the feeling of stepping into a garden paradise.” It features a meandering pathway dotted with planters, fountains, and deflected views. A hotel is integrated into the mall along with numerous performance spaces. The center is not as highly detailed and theatrical as Main Street inside of Disneyland. However, it does capture that spirit of reassurance that is inside of the park.



The architectural vocabulary developed at Disneyland has influenced other “invented” places. For an outstanding example, one has only to exit Disneyland and drive north along the freeway to The Grove in the Fairfax district of Los Angeles. Built in 2002, the Grove is one of the most successful shopping centers in the region. It was built adjacent to another “invented” place, the historic Farmer’s Market (built in 1934). Developer Rick Caruso considers Walt Disney a hero and said that he is “one of the true geniuses in the world.” He had already built other “lifestyle” centers in suburban locations such as The Commons at Calabasas and The Lakes at Thousand Oaks. The Grove would be his first urban infill project of this type.

Caruso said, “What we are building are downtowns. It’s not just the big ideas, it’s also the little ideas that matter” and his goal is to build “a great street.” “It’s a thousand different things you notice but you couldn’t tell what it is,” he says. “It’s the scale of buildings and the width of the street. It’s the rhythm of the trees and the lampposts. It’s eye candy that your brain pick up but you can’t really say what makes a difference.” He was inspired by the redevelopment of Rome’s Via Veneto and wanted to capture the elegance and spirit of an Italian villa. The Grove features a musical fountain designed by WET design and a double-decker trolley that was designed by former Disney Imagineer George McGinnis.



Like Disneyland, The Grove features building façades framing a narrow corridor using forced perspective. Forced perspective is a filmmaking technique that adds depth to motion pictures. Within the built environment, forced perspective can create an illusion of greater building height while maintaining an intimate atmosphere. At Disneyland, the first floor is generally nine-tenths scale while the upper floors get progressively smaller. At The Grove, the first floor is full-scale while the upper floors get progressively larger.

Caruso left nothing to chance. He even hired a feng shui expert who recommended that the main street should not be straight but feature curves. The result is a highly energized space, not as laid back as Disneyland’s Main Street but not as chaotic as CityWalk. The result is what the Los Angeles Times described as a “wildly popular amusement park-like shopping center.”

By 2001, the integration of housing within an entertainment retail center would be realized with the opening of the Paseo Colorado in Pasadena designed by Ehrenkrantz, Eckstut and Kuhn Architects. Paseo Colorado was meant to compliment the Beaux Arts-style Civic Center. Caruso would take this concept one step further with The Americana at Brand in Glendale in 2008. Americana at Brand is based on 1940s Charleston, South Carolina.

For decades, many tourists and local residents have asked themselves the same question; when you want to visit Hollywood, the movie capital of the world, where do you go? Walt Disney would capture a bit of that spirit in Anaheim with Disneyland. Universal Studios successfully opened up the front door and invited guests to peak behind the curtain. In both cases, you had to pay an admission for the experience. What if somebody built a gathering place that celebrated Hollywood that was actually in Hollywood and did not have a front gate admission? That is a question that David Malmuth kept asking himself while he worked for the development arm of The Walt Disney Company.

Malmuth had worked on the rehabilitation of the New Amsterdam Theater in New York City and he saw first hand how this investment became a catalyst in the revitalization of Times Square. Could Disney do the same thing for the heart of Hollywood – Hollywood Boulevard and Highland Avenue?



For many, the center of Hollywood is the iconic Grauman’s Chinese Theater, famous for world premieres and the signatures, footprints, and handprints of popular motion picture personalities from the 1920s to the present day. Disney did have a vested interest in this particular block. In 1989, they acquired the El Capitan Theater as a showcase for their new entertainment offerings and reopened the facility in 1991 after an exhaustive restoration. The El Capitan Theater is only steps away from the Chinese Theater.

After Malmuth surveyed the neighborhood, he did not like what he saw. The failing Hollywood Galaxy entertainment complex was a couple of blocks to the east of the El Capitan. Across the street was the rundown Hollywood Hotel owned by Mel Simon. Much of Hollywood Boulevard was feeling the pain caused by the construction of the METRO Red Line subway. The neighborhood was in much need of help. Visitors who embraced the bigger then life myth of Hollywood would constantly walk away disappointed when they visited the actual place.

In an interview, Malmuth said, “Visitors had money, they had interest, they were looking for something special, and their expectations were not being met. He felt that the positive changes he witnessed at 42nd Street in New York could happen in Hollywood.

Malmuth’s original concept for Hollywood and Highland was to have each of the major movie studios “adopt a block” of storefronts where guests could interact with the products much the same way they do at Disneyland and Universal Studios. Each studio would have a complete floor. The storefronts would include studio themed retail stores, restaurants, and opportunities to preview upcoming films. Many of the studios such as MGM, Paramount, Warner, and Sony had already experimented with place-based entertainment venues, so he thought this would be a natural fit.

Malmuth proposed that Disney “create a place that was rooted in the soil and could not be duplicated anywhere else.” Hollywood and Highland would not be a suburban shopping mall planted in city. Instead, it would celebrate its urban presence yet become the safe, clean, gathering place for those seeking the “Hollywood” experience.



The property across the street from the El Capitan was perfect. Warner Brothers owned fifty percent of the Chinese Theater. The rest of the property was owned by the MTA as well as the Community Redevelopment Agency of the City of Los Angeles (CRA). The CRA was trying to consolidate the remaining properties. A subway station was planned for this location. In 1995, Malmuth began working with recently elected Los Angeles City Councilwoman Jackie Goldberg to bring the pieces together.

Confident that he was on to something big, in March 1996 Malmuth made a presentation to Disney CEO, Michael Eisner and company president, Michael Ovitz. Eisner told Malmuth that Disney only did real estate deals if it served the entertainment arm and that need was already being served with the theater. Disney passed on the deal. Soon, the other studios would loose interest and the concept would transition into a more traditional shopping mall.

In June 1996, Malmuth left Disney and brought the concept to Lou Wagman at TrizacHahn. The City of Los Angeles released an RFP for the redevelopment of the block adjacent to the Chinese Theater in April 1997. TrizacHahn partnered with Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects and won the contract. An agreement was reached in April 1998 for a project with an estimated cost of $615 million. The CRA would contribute $90 million with $30 million set aside for the Kodak Theater. The Kodak Theater was a critical piece of the project.



The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences was looking for a new home for the Oscars. The Pantages Theater as well as the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion was considered but it was decided to build a state-of-the-art facility. The City would retain ownership of the theater. Malmuth said, “What we talk about in describing our ambition here for Hollywood Boulevard is to create a place that’s authentic.” The Kodak Theater would add instant credibility.

The architectural centerpiece of the five-story entertainment retail complex is a massive interior courtyard inspired by the Babylon set from D.W. Griffith’s film Intolerance. The movie set was one of the largest ever built in Hollywood. The entire sculpture frames the Hollywood sign. Architect Vaughan Davies, who worked on the project, commented that this view is the most compelling part of the project. Tying everything together internally is a series of mosaics called “The Road to Hollywood” by Erika Rothenberg.

The exterior is laminated with billboards, which have been granted exempt status from city standards until 2022. The billboards hide the lack of quality architecture. This is a money making machine with none of the flash expected in Hollywood. Like a movie set, there is one side that is to be filmed (the interior) and another that just holds up the façade (the exterior).

However, the center is filled with compromises. The original plan to be a showcase for the studios is reflected in the confusing circulation pattern. Along with the METRO subway station in the basement, the complex has a bowling alley, nightclubs, a broadcast studio, and a 65,000 square foot ballroom.

Although critics have slammed the project, Hollywood and Highland has attracted considerable new development in the surrounding area fulfilling one of the original project goals. Today, the stars out front along the Hollywood Walk of Fame are considered the most desirable along Hollywood Boulevard.

What is the next step in the evolution of the entertainment retail center? With constant pressure to reinvent the genre, it may not be long before we find out.

What are your favorite Disney-ized spaces and magical places?

SAMLAND EVENT ALERT: We've been teasing you for weeks with Sam's upcoming event at the Huntington Gardens on July 9th. This is your last chance to secure a spot as registration must close by July 5th.

“LOS ANGELES: INVENTED SPACES OR AUTHENTIC PLACES?”
Presented by the Los Angeles Region Planning History Group in cooperation with the Huntington-USC Institute on California and the West Huntington Library and Gardens

Saturday, July 9, 2011 at the Huntington Library and Gardens
Coffee & Pastries: 9:30 a.m. Colloquium and Lunch: 10:00 a.m. – 2:00 p.m.
The Los Angeles region has evolved as much from out-sized dreams and inventions as from traditional rules for establishing human settlements. Carey McWilliams called Los Angeles an “improbable” place not destined to succeed, but determined to do so. As Southern California developed, the visionaries who built this region knew it was less about location and more about destination. The enormous popularity of “invented” or themed destinations – Venice of America, Olvera Street, Disneyland, Third Street Promenade, CityWalk, The Grove and many others – has provided planners, designers and developers with inspiration and lessons on both success and failure. What is the difference between those places that have a “unifying vision” and those that celebrate a “messy vitality”? Where do “invented” places end and “authentic” places begin? In a land where set designers build houses, architects design movie sets, and many of our most cherished “public” spaces are privately owned and operated, anything is possible. A distinguished panel, moderated by author and planner Sam Gennawey, will address these questions.

  • David Sloane, Professor, USC School of Policy, Planning, and Development
  • Hassan Haghani, Community Development Director, City of Glendale
  • Vaughan Davies, Principal and Director of Urban Design, AECOM
  • Tim O’Day, O’Day and Associates
  • Neal Payton, Principal, Torti Gallas and Partners

Cost is $40; for students with valid student ID, $20

Fee includes coffee and pastries, lunch, parking, and day pass to the Huntington

Seating is limited; please RSVP to:
Alice Lepis, Secretary
[email protected] (preferred) or at 818.769.4179 no later than
Tuesday, July 5, 2011
Don't miss any of our updates, follow SAMLAND on Twitter @ SamlandDisney

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Updated 07-01-2011 at 07:57 AM by Dustysage (Southdale Mall name corrected)

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Comments

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  1. MickeyMaxx's Avatar
    Good golly I enjoy your articles! Just fascinating stuff, Sam!

    Thanks!
  2. PragmaticIdealist's Avatar
    Malls, in general, are problematic for a few specific reasons.

    First, there usually is an internalized design that does not relate very well to the street and to the public realm. Hollywood & Highland, Paseo Colorado, and Jon Jerde's West Hollywood Gateway and Horton Plaza, as well as some parts of the Caruso projects, are possible exceptions.

    Second, despite the efforts of Victor Gruen to prevent the outcome with his enclosed-downtown concept that developers largely rejected, malls, until very recently, had only one use: retail. A diversity and density of uses, however, are extremely important for creating walkability and sustainability and for centralizing development and promoting transit. Destination retail, as well as neighborhood-serving and workplace-supporting retail, ultimately, needs residential and office space, which, in turn, benefit from their proximity to these establishments. This mix also helps keep these spaces active 24 hours a day and seven days a week.

    Third, malls usually create superblocks that destroy circulation and connectivity. Pedestrian-exclusive spaces, like Santa Monica's Third Street Promenade, can only work with a sufficient level of pedestrian traffic. Otherwise, these streets require calmed automobile traffic in order to provide eyes-from-the-street and to activate the spaces.

    Fourth, malls are all too often surrounded by surface parking lots because transit is usually an afterthought, but these facilities inhibit walkability. The better design puts parking underground or in structures that are wrapped by other uses and that scatters these facilities throughout a district and concentrates them near major thoroughfares. Malls have always been good in their promotion of "park-once" behavior and in their provision of parking facilities that are shared among several retailers, though.

    Fifth, the retail mix of malls is usually abysmal since national and international chains dominate. A diversity of building stock can prevent this outcome, as can retail rent control.

    Sixth, malls lack authenticity because one developer is usually in control of a large parcel. Interestingly, Vaughan Davies recently led a team from AECOM to create a Vision & Action Plan for the city center of San Bernardino that proposes taking Victor Gruen's 40-acre Central City Mall and breaking it into pieces that would be developed by a collection of specialists, thereby restoring authenticity to the site.
    Updated 06-30-2011 at 05:46 AM by PragmaticIdealist
  3. acroyear's Avatar
    Acknowledging that PragmaticIdealist's comments mostly still hold true, I find as far as the themed mall idea goes, Las Vegas is hands-down the "winner". Most only know the casinos, hotels, and main theaters (Cirque du Soleil, etc), but in actuality most of the resorts on the strip are themed micro-cities with extensive shopping centers within. Each are usually themed to the hotel's larger theme, with The Bellagio and Caesar's Palace being the most extensive. These themes are then extended with other pedestrian niceties such as the Bellagio's conservatory, or MGMGrand's lion pen.

    In fact, one can see the lack of inventiveness in some companies when one looks at Planet Hollywood. The space of PH was originally the Aladdin, and much of the interior is still themed to that impressionistic, romanticized view of Arabia we had prior to the current political unpleasantness. As PH refurbishes sections of the large mall, it is replacing that faux interior with...well...nothing. The refurbed sections of the mall nearest the casino floor are duller and drabber than any generic suburban mall I've ever been in. The only pleasant parts of the mall are those that still hold the Aladdin touches to them.

    PH really is a company that has lost its identity in that the theme simply doesn't scale unless you are able to invest in the larger "Hollywood" look the way Disney has in DHS and parts of DCA. PH's over-expansion has cost them the income needed to build that kind of themeing where they need it, so their name on the Strip with such a lackluster experience is actually hurting their brand, and by extension the "Hollywood" name, more than helping it.
  4. PragmaticIdealist's Avatar
    One of my problems with Caruso is that, even though he is obsessed with historicist pastiche, he makes absolutely no effort to connect architecture with the locale in which said architecture resides.

    Los Angeles has very interesting historical styles, including some that are exclusive to the city, but Caruso only wants to recreate something vaguely European or something from Charleston, South Carolina.
  5. The Shadoe's Avatar
    Minor correction to be made: It's Southdale Center that's located in Edina, Minnesota. Not Southland Mall.


  6. PragmaticIdealist's Avatar
    I really dislike most of Downtown Disney, which is pedestrian and prosaic and which shows very little imagination.

    The Art Nouveau wine bar with the champagne-flute bowers is memorable, but everything else falls flat. And, really, why should views be deflected, instead of terminating with focal points?
  7. QuiGonJ's Avatar
    Idealist, I agree with you about Caruso. I have lived in Glendale for almost 25 years, and the Americana ripped out a historic firehouse and a recording studio that had been in operation for many years so we could have an Armani Exchange four blocks from the National Guard armory that is Glendale's main homeless shelter.

    The Americana is such a walled city it has choked the rest of Brand Blvd and the other complexes that were built in the past 20 years or so. I won't blame it for the fall of the Galleria, since that place was badly kept up for years and overall, the mall chains of the 80s are now just history, but Caruso's property certainly isn't big on sharing or being part of the city it's actually in, as in its recent sniping of Nordstrom's from the Galleria.

    And on DTD, you are correct there too. I think it's a bit too laid back.
  8. Mousecat's Avatar
    Wonderful comments. This is the level of discussion we hope to have on July 9th. The format is designed to foster significant audience participation. I hope that all of you can attend.

    Sam
    SamLand's Disney Adventures
  9. StevenW's Avatar
    I'm not sure what L.A. truly is. It seems like L.A. gets a lot of criticism, but there is no solution.

    In my day to day life, there is no need for such things as CityWalk, Downtown Disney, or the Grove. These retail areas are not so much as retail centers as they are entertainment areas. I usually do my shopping at the big box stores where the parking lots do serve a purpose... to hold the cart of products I've bought. In reference to PragmaticIdealist, expecting pedestrian traffic to the retail center is a misunderstanding of its general purpose in both scenarios (you drive to do your shopping, and you drive to seek your entertainment).

    As much as I dislike the sameness of our retail stores, I don't see an alternative. The boutique stores have higher prices and are unlikely to sell lower priced items in the variety that we have come to expect. Besides, the retail stores are increasingly closing. Go to any mall, retail is suffering.

    Much of what passes for retail centers are a trendy reflection of the latest and greatest. There is little local cultural references. As such, why does this article seem to be so Disney biased? As if Disney is the better way or any former Disney manager has the better concept.

    The next best thing in retail is more... that's the trend.
  10. jpg391's Avatar
    Sam, this is a great article as usual.
  11. PragmaticIdealist's Avatar
    Among "power strip" malls with big-box stores, nothing beats West Hollywood Gateway, which is a clever design that relates well to the street while placing a Target on top of a Best Buy. The complex is pedestrian-friendly, and it is designed to inform future surrounding development. Additionally, two levels of parking with express elevators to individual stores were placed underground since no high-quality transit serves the West side at the moment.
  12. PragmaticIdealist's Avatar
    I'm looking forward to the development of U.S.C. Village, which will be connected to the Expo Line light-rail and which will be characterized by tall and handsome street-wall buildings that complement the historic architecture on the university campus and at Exposition Park. The neighborhood could be revitalized in a big way if that project is executed well.
  13. JiminyCricketFan's Avatar
    John Hench was so smart! He understood things is a way that even most today miss. He is absolutely right that too much stimulation does lead to information gridlock. It also produces a sense of uneasiness that produces caution not relaxation. When we feel relaxed we are much more likely to spend. I have always felt that Downtown Disney missed on all of this. Too many restaurants are heavily themed but the restaurant across the way contradicts the theme. There is a New Orleans style restaurant that is nicely done, but it looks out at Mexican style restaurant. Rainforest Cafe creates Africa but then is next to a shopping center trying to simulate New York. One place's theme contradicts another and ultimately your eyes convince you it is all phony. Walt understood that you have to immerse your guests in a theme, so every direction you look, it would reinforce the theme, not contradict it. That is what John Hench was espousing for shopping malls, but sadly, Disney did not trust someone like him to understand and ultimately just produced another shopping mall, not much different from the ones I see all across the country.
  14. ValenciaJoe's Avatar
    Sam - The first iteration of CityWalk opened at Universal Hollywood waaaay before 1993. It was either 1986 or 87. I ought to know because I was dating my soon-to-be wife in 1987 and we would go to CityWalk for some of our dates and go see a movie there (we were married in 1988).

    Also, it took a while for Hollywood & Highland to take off. It started off slow due to the decline in Japanese tourists as a result of 9-11. It was also poorly designed. The current owners of the center purchased it from TrizecHahn at a steal (I think around $300 million, while TrizecHahn spent over $600 million to construct it), and eventually had to redesign the flow of the center. Also what hurt was that a major store that relied on overseas tourists (I forget the name of it, but it was a duty-free department store) closed, and also, of late, Virgin Megastore closed. Yes, it is a busy place now, and Cirque du Soleil will have a permanent location in Los Angeles at the Kokak Theatre.
  15. Aladdin's Avatar
    Just an FYI, the name of the 1st indoor mall in Edina, MN is "Southdale"

    I've loved the look of "The Grove" ever since it opened! And it's really no surprise that Main Street USA was part of the influence of for this mall. I couldn't say enough amazing things about how attractive the atmosphere of this mall is! And when this mall opened at nearly the same time that Disneyland's Downtown Disney shopping area opened, it was only natural to see how those two malls stacked up to each other.

    By FAR, The Grove was so much more attractive than DTD. And for Timur Galen to say the DTD supposedly has a "Garden Theme". Well, all i can say is DTD may have been a good way to link the DL Hotel with DCA and DL, but the set dressing of DTD LACKS SO MUCH - A garden theme? Really? I just don't see it. Metal Birds of Paradise don't make for a "Garden", just WAY too much concrete and too liitle garden, in the supposedly "Garden Themed outdoor shopping Mall".

    But with the Grove, it's everything the DTD SHOULD HAVE BEEN - It was really sad to see that DCA was "Out-Disneyed" Tokoyo Disney Sea, in 2001, but then to see DTD get "Out-Disneyed" by a shopping experience in it's own backyard, well THAT was just plain depressing to See that Disneyland Anaheim just didn't want or care to be the best it could be.

    There are so many things that make the Grove VASTLY superior to DTD, the ones that stood out to me the most were:

    The fountain synched to old Dean Martin songs, surrounded by a lavishly lanscaped pond, small pedestrian bridge over a stream, surrounded by a grassy area
    - compare that to the ugly tiled flower the dribbles water surrounded by vast areas of concrete walkway and concrete seating area.

    A movie theater with a lobby that rivals a lobby of a 5 star hotel - compared to a fairly ordinary AMC Theater,

    Elegant European inspired statues, and buildings, with a trolley with popcorn lights, that runs the length of the shopping district. comparred to bland looking outdoor shopping area.

    Yeah, it's rather pathetic that they didn't plan to buiild someplace that would have been a real showcase like The Grove. It's pathetic that DTD only has some rather ordinary movie theaters, when Disney should have built a theater to rival a theater that could have held some premieres. Going to a movie at DL should be so much better than going to your local multiplex, but apparently, they didn't want to make DTD more special than that.

    Disney not only cheaped out on DCA, at the turn of the Millenium, they also cheaped out on DTD! And unfortunately, many of the old charming garden areas of the old DL Hotel were lost in the DCA expansion, and those older charming areas were replaced by concrete. DTD could have, and should have built new charming areas in the shopping area, just as The Grove did. But DTD just COMPLETELY FAILED in that.
  16. Mousecat's Avatar
    I appreciate the corrections about "Southdale" and hope to make a change to the text. You know, sometimes my eyes get bleary with this stuff. I go into detail about Gruen and Disney in the book Four Decades of Magic.

    I just love this discussion. I hope some of you will join me next week at the Huntington Library. The program is designed to really foster a community discussion and try to document some lessons that can be shared.

    Thanks.

    Sam
    SamLand's Disney Adventures
  17. QuiGonJ's Avatar
    Wish I could be there Sam, but out of all the Saturdays in the month, I have a work commitment at 9 am that morning, and a church commitment in the afternoon.
  18. DisWedWay's Avatar
    I remember when Disney Vice President Tony Baxter first reported on Universal's City Walk with rave reviews in the late 80's. The only section I really liked was the Victoria Station Complex, which was the "Best" themed of all the Stations. I could spend hours just studying the treatments and problem solvers. I was very disappointed when Universal removed it for the stunt theater. Bob Snow who created the Rosie O'Grady's complex in Orlando really new how to theme and intertwine different periods into one. I'm sorry he didn't want to get involved in Disney's Pleasure Island and moved to Vegas. He had the vision. PD
  19. PragmaticIdealist's Avatar
    For comparison, the truly authentic street in southern California that gets the retail mix, as well as several other elements, right is Second Avenue in Belmont Shore. I wish more places attempted to emulate that neighborhood because it is an exemplar of pedestrian-friendliness.

    Last week, the Planning Center held public design charrettes for a Transit-Oriented Development (T.O.D.) Overlay District in the City of San Bernardino that will convert the mile-wide areas around the ambitious new multimodal terminal, as well as the light-rail and B.R.T. stations there, into distinct urban villages that each have a strong sense of place and that each become destinations.

    Repeatedly, Santana Row, the Disneyesque lifestyle-center in San Jose, was mentioned as having the appropriate character and massing for the immediate areas around most of the satellite transit stations that branch from the core.

    The major catalyst project in the historic core is Theatre Square, which builds on the very successful California Theatre and which, again, is being led by Vaughan Davies, along with AECOM Landscape Architect J.T. Barr, as well as John Fransen, the retail consultant for Third Street Promenade. Appropriately-anchored with theatres, cinemas. and other attractions, the public realm, in that instance, is the organizing feature around which the private sector can work its magic in a coordinated way as parking is tightened, traffic is calmed, and "managed congestion" is introduced.
  20. Awe_inspired's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin
    Just an FYI, the name of the 1st indoor mall in Edina, MN is "Southdale"

    I've loved the look of "The Grove" ever since it opened! And it's really no surprise that Main Street USA was part of the influence of for this mall. I couldn't say enough amazing things about how attractive the atmosphere of this mall is! And when this mall opened at nearly the same time that Disneyland's Downtown Disney shopping area opened, it was only natural to see how those two malls stacked up to each other.

    By FAR, The Grove was so much more attractive than DTD. And for Timur Galen to say the DTD supposedly has a "Garden Theme". Well, all i can say is DTD may have been a good way to link the DL Hotel with DCA and DL, but the set dressing of DTD LACKS SO MUCH - A garden theme? Really? I just don't see it. Metal Birds of Paradise don't make for a "Garden", just WAY too much concrete and too liitle garden, in the supposedly "Garden Themed outdoor shopping Mall".

    But with the Grove, it's everything the DTD SHOULD HAVE BEEN - It was really sad to see that DCA was "Out-Disneyed" Tokoyo Disney Sea, in 2001, but then to see DTD get "Out-Disneyed" by a shopping experience in it's own backyard, well THAT was just plain depressing to See that Disneyland Anaheim just didn't want or care to be the best it could be.

    There are so many things that make the Grove VASTLY superior to DTD, the ones that stood out to me the most were:

    The fountain synched to old Dean Martin songs, surrounded by a lavishly lanscaped pond, small pedestrian bridge over a stream, surrounded by a grassy area
    - compare that to the ugly tiled flower the dribbles water surrounded by vast areas of concrete walkway and concrete seating area.

    A movie theater with a lobby that rivals a lobby of a 5 star hotel - compared to a fairly ordinary AMC Theater,

    Elegant European inspired statues, and buildings, with a trolley with popcorn lights, that runs the length of the shopping district. comparred to bland looking outdoor shopping area.

    Yeah, it's rather pathetic that they didn't plan to buiild someplace that would have been a real showcase like The Grove. It's pathetic that DTD only has some rather ordinary movie theaters, when Disney should have built a theater to rival a theater that could have held some premieres. Going to a movie at DL should be so much better than going to your local multiplex, but apparently, they didn't want to make DTD more special than that.

    Disney not only cheaped out on DCA, at the turn of the Millenium, they also cheaped out on DTD! And unfortunately, many of the old charming garden areas of the old DL Hotel were lost in the DCA expansion, and those older charming areas were replaced by concrete. DTD could have, and should have built new charming areas in the shopping area, just as The Grove did. But DTD just COMPLETELY FAILED in that.

    Very well stated. Aladdin DTD doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. If it's an alternative to The Grove, The Block, 3rd Street for locals then it needs to have stores that locals will want to visit. If it is for tourists it needs to WOW them. For instance, as you say, they should have an incredible lobby for the cinema, have the landscaping be world class, create a thematic thread (not a vine!)

    It reminds me of the episode of The Office when Steve Carrell is in New York. He says, "There's a great pizza place around here somewhere." It turns out he's talking about Sbarro!

    Every store in DTD should be a unique, special experience, imho.
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