1/6: Auld Lang Dollar Sign

[sir clinksalot]

Originally Posted by danyoung

Why? I think they're pretty efficient at doing what they do. They need to run more of them during critical times, though, and make better use of the loading and unloading areas, both at the park and at the garage.

And those are exactly the issues I'm talking about. If you get to the park before, at or just after opening, you'll be lucky if they are running more than 2 trams. In fact, MANY times we've seen them running only 1. This is absolutely unacceptable.

The fact that you have 4 tram load/unload area's and only use 1 and create long lines is also unacceptable. It could be SO much more efficient if they would use the current system the way it should be used, and not try and save money.

By having an automated system (moving sidewalk/peoplemover) it would always be running at full capacity.

Also, the fact that if you walk to the structure you have to cross Disneyland Drive and that they didn't think to build a pedestrian tunnel is also unacceptable. The path is great, but it should be a dedicated path that runs with the tram road and goes under the street.

Originally Posted by KevinYee

Any hypothetical monorail or peoplemover would have to go underground at least once. I feel my RCT3 itch acting up already.

I was thinking the same thing Kevin. It could certainly work though. The lot that runs along where Pumbaa is is empty (except for power lines). The Tram/Peoplemover/whatever could run along that empty lot, go down under Harbor and then back up where the Lion King Tram road is.

As far as the planes, with all of the trees and center divider now on Harbor, I'm not sure a plane could land there anyway. It does get wider as it get's close to Garden Grove (nearing Chapman) and a plane could definitely land there.

I have a feeling though that the FAA (or Disney) wouldn't appreciate any kind of plane trying to make a landing that close to a crowded Disneyland.

Is Harbor along some airports flight path?

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Originally Posted by penguinsoda

Did I confuse my lots?? I'm operating under the handicap of a massive head cold right now... Timon, Pumba...secret parking lot... the only one I know for sure is Mickey & Friends.

I'm saying the Lion King Tram station just outside the Disneyland Esplanade could continue around Hollywoodland, past the Hyperion, then descend down a grade, turn and go through a tunnel under Harbor Blvd, and re emerge at ground level for a turnaround at Pumbaa accross from the Garden Walk.

The rest of the existing tram route and back parking lot can be converted to theme park use as DCA expands to Harbor.

[penguinsoda]

Originally Posted by sir clinksalot

As far as the planes, with all of the trees and center divider now on Harbor, I'm not sure a plane could land there anyway. It does get wider as it get's close to Garden Grove (nearing Chapman) and a plane could definitely land there.

I was thinking the same thing. Even a small private plane would end up shearing its wings off if it tried to land on Harbor. I guess if it was a matter of an emergency landing on a highway or crashing outright, taking the wings off but being on the ground would be the better of the two...

Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer

I'm saying the Lion King Tram station just outside the Disneyland Esplanade could continue around Hollywoodland, past the Hyperion, then descend down a grade, turn and go through a tunnel under Harbor Blvd, and re emerge at ground level for a turnaround at Pumbaa accross from the Garden Walk.

The rest of the existing tram route and back parking lot can be converted to theme park use as DCA expands to Harbor.

OH! Now I understand. I wasn't "seeing" going underground at that spot and connecting at that location across Harbor! Ok, now I see how that would work. It would be a massive construction project, but would be workable.

[sediment]

Originally Posted by Mac Daddy

What is mind boggling to me is the sheer amount of $$$ that are generated every year by AP sales. Part of my response was geared to an old thread where the individual was suggesting that the Disney company was LOSING money on AP sales. If you start with a hypothetical figure like 600,000 APs sold in a year, you would be looking at a figure that at its lowest would be 60 million per year on sales alone. Add Deluxe and Premium fees to that and the figure soars higher. Add the $500 - $1000 spent in the parks during the course of the year for food and merchandise, and the figure becomes astronomical. Back when my wife and I were just starting out with two kids, there was no WAY we, as Southern Californians, would think about paying 70 bucks for just one day at Disneyland. So...Disney would be without our $$$ for the ticket sale AND for what we would have spent in the park. But if we could get a SoCal select pass for around 90 bucks, that would be a no brainer. And suddenly, Disney just made a thousand bucks off a family that otherwise would have gone to Knotts. Disney is making money hand over fist on AP sales and I believe you are correct in stating that they would never let the program go.

Yes, Disney makes money off of you. And lots of people don't go to Disneyland because the daily price is too expensive for the product. (People like you and your family, for example, if AP's weren't offered.)
And, yes, the AP program puts a heavy strain on the competitors, who cannot offer what DL offers. SF, Knott's, Legoland all changed ownership.

An average day at DL is worth maybe $40.

A couple of other notes:
1. Everything you buy at Disneyland has a variable cost of making, transporting, marketing, etc. In order to equate the cost buying stuff at DL to buying a ticket, you have to look at price minus these variable costs, often half of the retail price. Cost % is higher on heavily discounted items.
2. What is equally mind-boggling is the amount of admission revenue LOST. Here are my numbers. Feel free to adjust them, (but not the basic math):
a) 20 million guests -- DL+DCA combined, assuming that a parkhopper (visiting both parks on same day) counts as one guest visit.
b) 700,000 APs sold.
c) 10 visits per AP'er, average. (I think it's more, but this is a reasonable guess).
d) $200 average price of AP. (Round numbers are easier.)
e) $40 average ticket revenue (hoppers, discounts, etc.) of non-AP admissions.
f) So, 700000*$200 + (20,000,000 - 7,000,000)*$40 = $660,000,000
g) If 20,000,000 visits occurred without an AP program, then 20,000,000 * $40 = $800,000,000.
h) Are 20,000,000 guest visits possible without AP program? Probably not, since 80% or so of DCA's visits are APs or 2-fer's. However, DL exceeded 14,000,000 visits in '89, '95, '96, and '97, and averaged 12 between '84 and '95.
i) Current guest counts are not comparable with prior ones, since many local AP trips are not whole-day. I'm not sure how to adjust for this. It definitely affects revenue analysis such as this. On one hand, there is less "depreciation" (sitting on POTC) of the asset. OTOH, a short visit is not equivalent to a paying-guest's revenue.
j) In DL's current state, one configured assuming a good percentage of guests are AP'ers, could 14MM guests be counted on? Probably not. 13 years of heavy marketing has left DL very different from what it used to be. The "heroin monkey" that Al Lutz calls the program, wll be a hard habit to break. It will live by the AP, hopefully not die by the AP.

[sediment]

Originally Posted by ExCandyMaker

Not to quibble, but the 22 fwy crosses over Harbor, but the again thats in Garden Grove ( a city that has neither)

Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume

In addition to the 22, the 405 crosses over Harbor Blvd in the city of Costa Mesa.

So does The 5, northeast and right next to DL.

[DisneyIPresume]

Originally Posted by sediment

So does The 5, northeast and right next to DL.

I know where you are talking about I think. Harbor goes over the 5 in that area, unless I'm confusing this with somewhere else.

And Clinks, I think the FAA and Disney would rather have a plane land near DL instead of crash near DL. There is probably enough room on Harbor for a small single engine plane to land if it's an emergency. Now if it is a huge passenger jet that would be a totally different story.

[Darkbeer]

Originally Posted by sediment

So does The 5, northeast and right next to DL.

Actually, Harbor Boulevard is a BRIDGE that goes over the freeway when it crosses the I-5. Same as when Harbor crosses the 91 freeway, Harbor over the freeway as a bridge.

But then a few blocks north of the 91, the main train tracks for Amtrak/Metrolink (Fullerton Station) is the bridge, and Harbor Blvd goes under the tracks (basically a dug out area, as the train tracks are at the normal street level in the area.

The 22 on the other hand, the freeway passes over Harbor. (Basically the Freeway is the Bridge that crosses Harbor.

[sediment]

really?? Let me look at Google again....
You're both right! I keep looking at Anaheim Blvd!

So, how is my monorail from ARTIC to DTD going to get around this problem?
Hmm, going underground from east of The 5 to just west of harbor would do it. (Along the strip of land that contains the power lines.)

[bfdf55]

Originally Posted by KevinYee

Quick addendum to the idea of a bridge across Harbor, or a monorail across it: you can't build anything across Harbor. It's an emergency access corridor, and there are no bridges ANYWHERE on that street so that:

1. tall rescue equipment can go down it
2. planes can land on it.

Any hypothetical monorail or peoplemover would have to go underground at least once. I feel my RCT3 itch acting up already.

I really think we need to check with Snopes on this one. I thought that this was exposed as an urban legend years ago.

[bfdf55]

Originally Posted by Mac Daddy

What is mind boggling to me is the sheer amount of $$$ that are generated every year by AP sales. Part of my response was geared to an old thread where the individual was suggesting that the Disney company was LOSING money on AP sales.

If you start with a hypothetical figure like 600,000 APs sold in a year, you would be looking at a figure that at its lowest would be 60 million per year on sales alone. Add Deluxe and Premium fees to that and the figure soars higher. Add the $500 - $1000 spent in the parks during the course of the year for food and merchandise, and the figure becomes astronomical.

Back when my wife and I were just starting out with two kids, there was no WAY we, as Southern Californians, would think about paying 70 bucks for just one day at Disneyland. So...Disney would be without our $$$ for the ticket sale AND for what we would have spent in the park. But if we could get a SoCal select pass for around 90 bucks, that would be a no brainer. And suddenly, Disney just made a thousand bucks off a family that otherwise would have gone to Knotts. Disney is making money hand over fist on AP sales and I believe you are correct in stating that they would never let the program go.

Well, if you look at the AP situation compared to individual ticketing as a whole, it becomes apparent that Disney, while getting a significant monetary boost at the outset, must be getting less than if they sold individual tickets.

Very rough examples:
For the average guest (family), paying full price for a single day can be a hardship. So they buy an AP, theoretically getting 2 to 4 days for their AP price. Anything above that is free. As most people will go enough to AT LEAST cover that cost, Disney’s edge holds up until that point

While there are many who would just forgo their visits to the park if they didn’t have the AP, others would have filled the void. However, when it comes to the point when NOBODY buys single day tickets (like when they went from ticket books to total park access tickets), the park’s income will be even less capable of supporting the increased burden.

And for those who claim that even after the point where guests are effectively getting in free, their spending more than compensates for it, then why not just let everyone in FREE, and make their profits off the extra spending? Well, because that “spending” is speculative at best and can in no way be verified.

Once you have around 2 – 4 million guests holding AP’s (@ $200, 4 visits ea. avg. [$800m]) being the entire source of the park’s income, it becomes a different model from when they have 14 million (@ $70 avg. [$980 m]). That’s attempting to keep the park’s attendance at the current levels.

So, while it becomes a great deal for the guests (money wise) it would eventually be a dramatic hit on the park’s ability to maintain quality ANYTHING. And the more people would visit, the heavier the load with no increase in revenue.

[Armadillo4]

Originally Posted by twobluestripes

Good news: that casting can be more selective and the quality of the CMs hired is going up, and turnover's going down. Bad news: It's because the economy is in the toilet and it's almost impossible to get a job in the area. Also bad news: CMs still aren't being treated by the DLR how they really deserve.

Thanks for bringing these points up twobluestripes. For all the constructive criticism and multi-page threads about things changing and things gone wrong, I wish the treatment of CMs and their working conditions were discussed more.

Originally Posted by twobluestripes

Bad news: No PoD. But we knew that. But still sad. Good news: the Celebrate show is getting beefed up...Bad news: I feel awful that I am part of such a growing number of local AP holders who have seemingly contributed to cuts in Entertainment! We'll have to show them that locals love the entertainment too. Medium news: I suppose it is true that it's worse show to close down the attractions instead of the entertainers. But I don't have to like it!
Thanks for all the info, Al!

I agree with everything you wrote here 100%. It's like you posted my thoughts for me. I think I go to Disneyland as much for the Entertainment offerings now as I do for the attractions. When entertainment gets cut, it makes me sad.

[Thesyndicate1]

Knott's has a tunnel going under Beach Boulevard, no tram goes under it but totally dooable

Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer

I'm saying the Lion King Tram station just outside the Disneyland Esplanade could continue around Hollywoodland, past the Hyperion, then descend down a grade, turn and go through a tunnel under Harbor Blvd, and re emerge at ground level for a turnaround at Pumbaa accross from the Garden Walk.

The rest of the existing tram route and back parking lot can be converted to theme park use as DCA expands to Harbor.

[SingingAngel7242]

Originally Posted by RenMan

If they had a peoplemover that took people from GardenWalk and the hotel there to the promenade it would make all the difference in the world.

This is pretty much why I've never been there...if their was a tram to take me there from downtown disney or something, I'd totally go!

...better food choice too!

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Personally, I'd rather see modern electric PeopleMovers along the "tram right of way" but apparently, nothing can match the capacity of the tramzillas, not even the monorails.

[DisneyIPresume]

Just to let all of you know, I checked with my source, who is an air traffic controller at SNA (John Wayne Airport) and has been working there for many years.

Harbor Blvd is NOT specifically designed as an emergency landing strip for aircraft.

When I asked him he laughed and asked, "Are you serious?". When I told him I had heard of this he said he never heard of this as being official.