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  1. #31

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    That's a bit of a stretch as a comparison. It's a MUCH different experience going on a vacation than having promotional material sent to you via email.

    I was a charter member and I was completely overwhelmed by the greatness of the first D23 expo. But after constantly not being able to get into any of the local events (selling out within SECONDS) and the lackluster D23 expo from last year, I didn't renew.

    The parks are worth it, and $600 for a pass that if I chose to, not spend one more dime in a park, is a good deal.
    What you call promotional material I find interesting. I love reading "Ask Dave" (and, more, having it sent directly to me), find their articles interesting, very much enjoy the magazine and the photography, and still wear the D23 watch I got as a gift.

    But when your primary argument is that the events are TOO popular, that's kind of funny. If they didn't sell out, you'd probably say they do events no one wants to go to? Clearly, the product they are offering does appeal to many people, hence the sellouts.

    You call $600 a good deal, and I won't argue with that -- but, truly, when is the last time you didn't spend ONE MORE DIME in the park? Be honest. And your $600 good deal is like my $75 good deal.

    I don't doubt that D23 has a lot of room for improvement. But I've yet to see any of Disney's competitors even TRYING. I probably wouldn't be interested in their offerings if they did (maybe Paramount for its old movies), but you guys are sharply critical of a company's efforts to do something tailor made for you. It's basically biting the hand that feeds you. You'd think there might be a TINY bit of gratitude, of acknowledgment of Disney's efforts, but that seems not to be the case, which is a shame. If D23 WERE to close down, you'd no doubt be here criticizing Disney for THAT move, too. They can't win, I guess.

  2. #32

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    Once again, you are all a source of endless amusement. You don't want to spend $75 so Disney can "market" to you -- but you spend $3,000 on a vacation so you can have Disney market to you.
    Yeah, no....

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    You don't want to go to the D23 Expo because it's a bad experience but then my guess is a lot of you spend $150 to go to Comic-Con to be blasted with endless commercials.
    Never been to a fan convention. I would be interested in attending a Comic-Con one year for the experience of it, due to the event's prominence in today's entertainment industry, but that is about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    Do you understand what the costs are behind doing that? That even if D23 collected $500 from each of you, it wouldn't cover the cost of securing the rights from actors, from the underlying owners of the source material, from the composers, from all of the people who actually do have rights that have to be negotiated for every use of the material? I guess you think Disney can just play "It's a Small World" as much as it wants wherever it wants, and you forget about those pesky little copyright and ownership things. It's not that easy.
    Disney can play "it's a small world" all day long because they own the song. They own most of the music they use.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    And you say D23 doesn't give you any value, yet for $75 you can save 10% at the Disney Store, 10% on Super Shuttle, 20% at Brookstone, 10% at Mandara Spas, $37 at "Mary Poppins" on Broadway -- right there, JUST RIGHT THERE, you've made up for your membership. (Let's assume that's $10 savings at Disney Store, $10 on Super Shuttle, $20 at Brookstone, and $15 at Mandara Spa and $37 at "Mary Poppins" -- that puts you $15 AHEAD for the cost of a D23 membership, not including the magazines, gifts, etc.)
    I don't think I shop at any of those places.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    "But I don't shop at those places or use those services," you'll say. Fine. Name me one other Fan Club that even offers something like those discounts. People are working hard to bring them to YOU.
    I'm not a member of any fan club, but I still have access to coupons, loyalty programs, etc. Doesn't even require much work or even any money. "There's an app for that." I am not really sure what is being brought to me, as I find most of the content that I do see, which Disney has decided to offer for free, to be uninteresting.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    But more than that, name me one other fan club. Go back and read my first post. Find me ANY Fan Club, for profit or non-profit, that offers anything even CLOSE to what D23 offers?But more than that, name me one other fan club. Go back and read my first post. Find me ANY Fan Club, for profit or non-profit, that offers anything even CLOSE to what D23 offers?

    If you find one, do let me know, I'd be curious in learning more about it!
    Or, I could just not be interested in joining a bunch of fan clubs.


    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    What you call promotional material I find interesting. I love reading "Ask Dave" (and, more, having it sent directly to me), find their articles interesting, very much enjoy the magazine and the photography, and still wear the D23 watch I got as a gift.
    This right here is the biggest flaw with your whole rant. What you consider interesting and worth your money is not a universal law. You find it interesting and worth the money, myself and others do not. Simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    You'd think there might be a TINY bit of gratitude, of acknowledgment of Disney's efforts, but that seems not to be the case, which is a shame. If D23 WERE to close down, you'd no doubt be here criticizing Disney for THAT move, too. They can't win, I guess.
    I owe The Walt Disney Company nothing. I express my "gratitude" by purchasing the products I enjoy. I also do not see it as being inherently contradictory to possible criticize the shuttering of something for which I am not a fan. I consider the means to an end to be quite important. If I thought D23 was being shut down for the wrong reasons, then yes, I would likely say something.

  3. #33

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    ...you guys are sharply critical of a company's efforts to do something tailor made for you. It's basically biting the hand that feeds you.
    Ummm... reality check time? The Disney Corporation is not "the hand that feeds us." We are the hands that reach into our wallets to feed it.

    The Disney Corporation has developed D23 as a product aimed at a specific demographic, namely, Disney fans. The Disney Corporation is vigorously marketing that product to that demographic with the goal of selling it for a profit.

    Let's get real, folks -- the Disney Corporation is not the fans' buddy, it is not here to do the fans any favors, and it does not care one whit about the fans' gratitude or criticism. It is a successful, marketing-savvy media corporation that is selling a product (D23), which its customers can choose to buy or not buy, as they please.


    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    This right here is the biggest flaw with your whole rant. What you consider interesting and worth your money is not a universal law. You find it interesting and worth the money, myself and others do not. Simple as that.

    I owe The Walt Disney Company nothing. I express my "gratitude" by purchasing the products I enjoy. I also do not see it as being inherently contradictory to possible criticize the shuttering of something for which I am not a fan.
    Bingo.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  4. #34

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    yes we are feeding them
    Take a look at the theme park models I make at kolbykonnection.com

  5. #35

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Disney can play "it's a small world" all day long because they own the song. They own most of the music they use.
    So, you've seen the contract Disney has with the Sherman Brothers and know for a fact that there is no royalty clause in it? Or any of their other contracts for that matter?

  6. #36

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Star View Post
    So, you've seen the contract Disney has with the Sherman Brothers and know for a fact that there is no royalty clause in it? Or any of their other contracts for that matter?
    Three little words: On Staff Writers.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  7. #37

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    A few more words:

    This is a story we've heard at the Museum on a couple of occassions, like a visit from Richard Sherman, himself:

    there's a famous story about how the brothers had decided to donate their royalties from "it's a small world" to UNICEF and Walt got very angry with them. He told them to keep the royalties -- that they would put the Shermans' kids through college -- and donate to UNICEF by writing a check.

    So apparently they were more than just Staff Writers.

  8. #38

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    What you call promotional material I find interesting. I love reading "Ask Dave" (and, more, having it sent directly to me), find their articles interesting, very much enjoy the magazine and the photography, and still wear the D23 watch I got as a gift.
    Good point, but not quite worth $75, to me at least. I definitely enjoy the magazine though, no argument there.

    But when your primary argument is that the events are TOO popular, that's kind of funny. If they didn't sell out, you'd probably say they do events no one wants to go to? Clearly, the product they are offering does appeal to many people, hence the sellouts.
    It doesn't matter how great a product is if I can never get it, and the worst part is that being a D23 member doesn't even include those hard to attain events in its cost, you have to pay more to experience them, so in essence, you pay to have an opportunity to pay for an event, and the chances of getting a ticket are/were terrible...
    You call $600 a good deal, and I won't argue with that -- but, truly, when is the last time you didn't spend ONE MORE DIME in the park? Be honest. And your $600 good deal is like my $75 good deal.
    Doesn't happen often, but again, that's because I enjoy the product. Disney has great food, so I spend money there. If it didn't, I wouldn't. If I went to Disneyland the same amount as last year, my cost per visit broken down is only $3. That's a STEAL for a whole days worth of entertainment. Just so happens they have other things to make me spend more money.

    I don't doubt that D23 has a lot of room for improvement. But I've yet to see any of Disney's competitors even TRYING. I probably wouldn't be interested in their offerings if they did (maybe Paramount for its old movies), but you guys are sharply critical of a company's efforts to do something tailor made for you. It's basically biting the hand that feeds you. You'd think there might be a TINY bit of gratitude, of acknowledgment of Disney's efforts, but that seems not to be the case, which is a shame. If D23 WERE to close down, you'd no doubt be here criticizing Disney for THAT move, too. They can't win, I guess.
    There are enough fansites with fantastic interviews with past and present Disney celebs to sort of make that statement a bit moot. And best of all, when these personalities talk, they can do so freely and not stick to Disney's "script". Rolly Crump is a very colorful character with very strong opinions about the company, think he would be able to speak freely at a D23 sponsored event? And he put out a guided tour as a digital download for only $5, can you imagine how much it would cost from D23 if they even allowed such a thing?

    It's simple economics, make a product that people want, and they will buy. I'm not AGAINST D23, I just don't believe it delivers a product I would be willing to pay their asking price for. I gave them a shot and wasn't pleased, but if they continue to listen to feedback and change things, I'll definitely reconsider.

    Personally, I'm still mad that they don't produce Walt Disney Treasures Tins, those were worth $75 each in terms of content lol.
    Last edited by Soulquarian; 08-23-2012 at 11:21 AM.

  9. #39

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    It seems like most people who are critical or at least not enthused by D23 each have their own "personal" like, interest, agenda or expectation that isn't being fulfilled by D23. That isn't one bit unusual.

    What is interesting is that it appears that because their own "personal" like, interest, agenda, expectation etc. isn't being fulfilled by D23, many want to trash the whole concept of D23.

    I recognize this and don't let it bother me too much. I know there is little chance to get them to see things differently, nor do I want them to. It's just unfortunate that all the "personal" interest negativity may influence people who have a different or broader interest in Disney and might actually enjoy D23.

    And it does make it easier for me to enjoy and appreciate all the amazing things I have done with D23 because there are less people to compete with.

  10. #40

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulquarian View Post
    ...There are enough fansites with fantastic interviews with past and present Disney celebs to sort of make that statement a bit moot. And best of all, when these personalities talk, they can do so freely and not stick to Disney's "script". Rolly Crump is a very colorful character with very strong opinions about the company, think he would be able to speak freely at a D23 sponsored event?
    Exactly. As a longtime Disney fan and collector, the main reason D23 is a pass for me is that I can get the same information elsewhere minus the corporate spin and corporate political correctness. The last source I consider authoritative for Disney history is today's corporate Disney -- a company where every public utterance is vetted by cadres of corporate spinmeisters. A company where the head Disneyland Imagineer proudly proclaims downgrades like the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage to be a "major E-Ticket," and expresses irritation when the fans don't like his decision to honor Miley Cyrus in the exit of Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln. A company where the top executive of Imagineering publicly bashes Disney fans for protesting It's a Small World being turned into a Where's Waldo of franchise toon characters. A company that privately mocks the very fans it publicly markets to.

    75 dollars? I wouldn't spend 75 cents to be marketed to by the Wall Street corporation that Disney has become -- much less pay through the nose to stand in line for days of corporate PR spin at their "expo."

    I have no problem whatsoever with those who value D23. But don't think for a minute that mocking other Disney fans as not being real fans, simply because they choose not to spend their money on D23, is seen as anything other than the blatant fanboyism that it is.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  11. #41

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post


    ---------- Post added 08-22-2012 at 05:26 PM ----------



    That's interesting. Care to elaborate? What other fan groups? What is D23 doing to them?
    It has been my observation that D23 has been pretty unfriendly towards the Disneyana Fan Club (which used to be called the NFFC) the last couple of years. It is troubling to me because 1) When D23 first started up, Mr. Head of D23 put out a message stating that D23 would co-exist peaceably with the other Disney fan clubs and fan websites and not step on them. 2) Mr. Head of D23, back in the day, before he was a Disney Muckety-Muck, attended a number of NFFC conventions. Frankly, the format of many of the presentations at D23 events has been modeled after NFFC presentations. And, frankly, D23 would not even have been able to come into existence if not for the groundwork laid by fan clubs like the NFFC and the fan websites that allowed Disney fans to find each other and form a community. From a business standpoint, it doesn't make sense to alienate some of your longest, most loyal fans, to whom you owe a lot. From a Customer Service perspective, Disney touts that they provide a superior product to all their guests or customers, so, again, why be adversarial?

  12. #42

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    It has been my observation that D23 has been pretty unfriendly towards the Disneyana Fan Club (which used to be called the NFFC) the last couple of years. It is troubling to me because 1) When D23 first started up, Mr. Head of D23 put out a message stating that D23 would co-exist peaceably with the other Disney fan clubs and fan websites and not step on them. 2) Mr. Head of D23, back in the day, before he was a Disney Muckety-Muck, attended a number of NFFC conventions. Frankly, the format of many of the presentations at D23 events has been modeled after NFFC presentations. And, frankly, D23 would not even have been able to come into existence if not for the groundwork laid by fan clubs like the NFFC and the fan websites that allowed Disney fans to find each other and form a community. From a business standpoint, it doesn't make sense to alienate some of your longest, most loyal fans, to whom you owe a lot. From a Customer Service perspective, Disney touts that they provide a superior product to all their guests or customers, so, again, why be adversarial?
    Adversarial? How so?

    The format of the presentations at D23 events is exactly the format that is used at Comic-Con, Wonder-Con and countless other fan events. Are you saying NFFC has some kind of claim to these formats?

    At last, though, we're getting at the problem: NFFC/Disneyana Fan Club doesn't like D23 because they're taking what you did and claiming the material for Disney. Which is interesting, since it's, well, Disney's.

    A couple of decades ago, Disney would likely have shut down every "fan site" on the Internet claiming copyright infringement, given how much of Disney's intellectual property they use to engage in for-profit activity (like selling ads on their websites). I'm not singling out the Disneyana Fan Club.

    But you haven't said exactly how they are being "adversarial." Everything *I've* seen on the forums points to these fringe fan groups as being the adversarial ones, calling D23 names, criticizing the efforts of D23, making vague accusations that D23 wants to (gasp) make money for Disney, and insinuating that THEIRS is the "real" fan club.

    Through it all, D23 has remained silent, and if not overly magnanimous, certainly not "adversarial," unless there's a certain situation that you have in mind that has not come to light.

    Seems to me, though, that as a company, Disney has the right to form its own fan club. No?

    ---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 02:00 AM ----------

    Really and truly, this post from Sparky makes the WHOLE thing more obvious now! It's one group of people who are doing everything they can to make it look like "Disney fans" are against D23. You could at least make yourselves known.

  13. #43

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    >>Adversarial? How so?<<

    I've said all that is appropriate to say in this forum.

    >>The format of the presentations at D23 events is exactly the format that is used at Comic-Con, Wonder-Con and countless other fan events. Are you saying NFFC has some kind of claim to these formats?<<

    You are totally missing the point. No, the NFFC has no "claim" to any formats. But, D23 has clearly patterned things after the DFC/NFFC events. I have not doubt of that. And, I have not problem with it. It means those formats were good.

    >>At last, though, we're getting at the problem: NFFC/Disneyana Fan Club doesn't like D23 because they're taking what you did and claiming the material for Disney. Which is interesting, since it's, well, Disney's.<<

    You are completely wrong about that assumption. That is not the problem at all. The majority of DFC/NFFC members and it's leaders joined D23 when it formed and many still are members and support it, even though D23 has kicked us to the curb. Some have dropped out of D23, but not because of that. Every one that I know that has dropped out of D23 (in the club or out of it) has said that the reason is they felt they weren't getting enough out of it, as several have so articulately stated here.

    >>A couple of decades ago, Disney would likely have shut down every "fan site" on the Internet claiming copyright infringement, given how much of Disney's intellectual property they use to engage in for-profit activity (like selling ads on their websites). I'm not singling out the Disneyana Fan Club.<<

    That may have been the case at one time. But, these fan sites and clubs have done WAY more for Disney than they could have ever done for themselves in building a fan community to where it is today. There is no question of that. The DFC/NFFC itself was slow to adopt the Internet, in my opinion, which has probably hurt them in the long run.

    >>But you haven't said exactly how they are being "adversarial." Everything *I've* seen on the forums points to these fringe fan groups as being the adversarial ones, calling D23 names, criticizing the efforts of D23, making vague accusations that D23 wants to (gasp) make money for Disney, and insinuating that THEIRS is the "real" fan club.<<

    Again, I've said all that is appropriate to say here. And, again, you are completely wrong in your assumption that it's any "fringe groups" that are against D23 or Disney. The people who have gripes about D23 come from a wide range of people who are dissatisfied, not any one group. The posts on here should make that clear. It is foolish to think any group or club would be against D23 for "infringing on their territory". That makes no sense at all. We all look to D23 to bring us even more great Disney experiences, based on what D23 has at their disposal. WHY would anyone be against that? You are totally off base in your assumptions.

    >>Through it all, D23 has remained silent, and if not overly magnanimous, certainly not "adversarial," unless there's a certain situation that you have in mind that has not come to light.<<

    Of course they've remained silent. There's no reason for them to say anything. They could care less.

    >>Seems to me, though, that as a company, Disney has the right to form its own fan club. No?<<

    Absolutely, they have a right to form their own fan club, and, as I said, pretty much everybody I know was very excited about it. And, most everybody I know has participated in it. That doesn't mean we think it's perfect and has no room for improvement. Improvements don't get made if no one speaks up and point out where they need to be made.

    ---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 02:00 AM ----------

    >>
    Really and truly, this post from Sparky makes the WHOLE thing more obvious now! It's one group of people who are doing everything they can to make it look like "Disney fans" are against D23. You could at least make yourselves known.<<

    You couldn't be more wrong about that. Clearly, you seem to know it all already and nothing anyone says gets through to you. So, I won't engage any further with you. I've said what I needed to say. It's obvious that you either can't or won't understand the points that people have made here, or, maybe you're only here to argue with people. There is no "conspiracy" out there against D23. They've tried to be too many things to too many people, something which probably isn't possible, and have turned some people off. Simple as that.

    ---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 09:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Ummm... reality check time? The Disney Corporation is not "the hand that feeds us." We are the hands that reach into our wallets to feed it.

    The Disney Corporation has developed D23 as a product aimed at a specific demographic, namely, Disney fans. The Disney Corporation is vigorously marketing that product to that demographic with the goal of selling it for a profit.

    Let's get real, folks -- the Disney Corporation is not the fans' buddy, it is not here to do the fans any favors, and it does not care one whit about the fans' gratitude or criticism. It is a successful, marketing-savvy media corporation that is selling a product (D23), which its customers can choose to buy or not buy, as they please.

    Thank you. You've hit the nail squarely on the head. It couldn't be said any plainer. I have no wish for D23 to fail. I have gotten some benefit out of it, along with some disappointment. But, you are absolutely spot on. They didn't create it to "do something nice for the fans".

  14. #44

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Oh, gosh. I started this post because it's so silly to read these anti-D23 diatribes, when as others have pointed out if you don't like it, just don't join. But I guess this is like so much other Disney complaining. In the end it comes down to some weird personal grudge. I've never been in any fan club but always got Disney News and Disney Magazine, and wanted to get the D23 magazine. The rest for me is gravy. I certainly don't complain about how Comic-Con treats me, for instance. I know that for my $150 I'll be treated like cattle and I am. If it doesn't go well, I don't take it personally. For my $75 I think I'm pretty happy with what I get, and if you're not, then fine. It's the active, vocal complaining about it that amuses me so much. By posting"Bye-Bye D23," someone is clearly trying to get people to feel the same way they do. Why take to the boards to voice such criticism?

    Sure you are entitled to my opinion but I am entitled to mine too. And the whole idea that someone who likes Disney should have somehow to DEFEND being in D23 is crazy. As if by virtue of being run by Disney it's less "authentic."

    I think D23 has been great. You don't. If you're going to broadcast your views to the world shouldn't I be able to do the same??

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    Re: Attention Disney Fans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by EC82 View Post
    Oh, gosh. I started this post because it's so silly to read these anti-D23 diatribes, when as others have pointed out if you don't like it, just don't join. But I guess this is like so much other Disney complaining. In the end it comes down to some weird personal grudge. I've never been in any fan club but always got Disney News and Disney Magazine, and wanted to get the D23 magazine. The rest for me is gravy. I certainly don't complain about how Comic-Con treats me, for instance. I know that for my $150 I'll be treated like cattle and I am. If it doesn't go well, I don't take it personally. For my $75 I think I'm pretty happy with what I get, and if you're not, then fine. It's the active, vocal complaining about it that amuses me so much. By posting"Bye-Bye D23," someone is clearly trying to get people to feel the same way they do. Why take to the boards to voice such criticism?

    Sure you are entitled to my opinion but I am entitled to mine too. And the whole idea that someone who likes Disney should have somehow to DEFEND being in D23 is crazy. As if by virtue of being run by Disney it's less "authentic."

    I think D23 has been great. You don't. If you're going to broadcast your views to the world shouldn't I be able to do the same??
    Nobody has to defend being in D23 or not being in D23. Everyone is entitled to post their opinions on D23, and on everything else about Disney.

    What no one is allowed to do on this forum, however, is to belittle and label the opinions and motives of those who don't like D23 as (in your words) "silly," motivated by "some weird personal grudge" to "whine and complain," and mock them as "you are all a source of endless amusement."
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


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