Darn it! Bought Snow White Blu-Ray by mistake!!!

[MrSunnyBlack]

Originally Posted by sailerm

Both configurations contain the same discs, ONE DVD and TWO BLUE RAY discs. I was looking at them at Wla Mart yesterday, and they are the same the only differance is the way the cover describes them.

DVD + Blue Ray

Blue + DVD

I think panic is starting to set in on the studios in regards to blue ray, it's not selling, so they are having to snooker the general public into mistakening buying a blue ray disc (which they didn't (have to) do with Sleeping Beauty or Pinocchio.

Our local Wal Mart reduced the shelf space for blue ray, and gave it to $5 DVD titles (which for some strange reason seem to sell boat loads more)

Blue ray's days are numbered

(hey I still have my Snow White Platinum edition DVD... I think I'll watch it tonight)

Wow, where on Earth did you get this information?
Do you not see DVDs going into bargain bins?
As I stated in another post, Blu Ray has had a higher adoption rate then DVDs when they first started out. By 2013 Blu Ray techonology will be present in 67.8% of households. Not only is there the PS3 and Blu Ray players, Laptops, PCs and Macs will soon have Blu Ray drives installed. Standard Definition televisions are going to be obsolete in a few years with DVDs to follow. It is crazy to me that people haven't caught on to a little something called technology.

Remember Radio to Television? Records to Cassettes to CDs to Digital? Analog to Digital? Oh and VHS to DVD to Blu Ray.

Sorry but yes, one day you too will have an HD TV, Blu Ray player and Blu Ray discs.

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

It is crazy to me that people haven't caught on to a little something called technology.

Not to take this down the rabbit hole... you can dig up the blu ray wars threads if you want.

But sailerm's position is that Blu Ray itself will be eclipsed before it really settles in as the preferred format.

[goofystitch]

Originally Posted by sailerm

I think panic is starting to set in on the studios in regards to blue ray, it's not selling, so they are having to snooker the general public into mistakening buying a blue ray disc (which they didn't (have to) do with Sleeping Beauty or Pinocchio.

Our local Wal Mart reduced the shelf space for blue ray, and gave it to $5 DVD titles (which for some strange reason seem to sell boat loads more)

Blue ray's days are numbered

Actually, the adoption rate for Blu-Ray is much higher than it was at this stage in the DVD process. In fact, Blu-Ray ownership has doubled in the past year. It's not a simple fad and it is not going the way of laser discs.

That being said, DVD won't be obsolete in the near future either, unless studios decide to band together and not release them anymore. There is room for both to coexist. The truth is that some people simply don't have any interest in owning movies in HD. The fact that Blu-Ray players are backwards compatible (they can play DVDs) is also good news to most since it means you don't have to rebuy everything like you did when VHS went extinct.

Also, the way your local Wal Mart sells things is never a good indication of the general market trend, since each individual store adjusts to the local interests. Perhaps Blu-Rays don't sell well in your area? And most early adopters of Blu-Ray go to stores like Best Buy or buy online because Wal Mart employees are generally unreliable with information about the products.

[MrSunnyBlack]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

Not to take this down the rabbit hole... you can dig up the blu ray wars threads if you want.

But sailerm's position is that Blu Ray itself will be eclipsed before it really settles in as the preferred format.

I don't want to turn this into a Blu Ray war either but if you mean there will be another format before Blu Ray has time to settle is a little short sighted. Blu Ray really is nothing but a high capacity disc that is adaptable to any new technologies that come to fruition within the next decade. Home 3D is already being supplemented into the format and players with 3D televisions coming out next year. We won't be seeing another format change until the amount of data exceeds what can be stored on a Blu Ray which is a LONG way down the road (just look at PS3 games). We haven't even begun to scratch the capacity of a Blu Ray disc.

Not to mention studios would NEVER change formats so rapidly because changing formats costs an INCREDIBLE amount of money and risk and is only done when it is truly worth it (SD to HD). Blu Ray has HD covered and 3D covered and anything else there is down the road until maybe full immersion holographic films are ready for public consumption lol!

[sir clinksalot]

A few months ago I would have been right there with sailerm. But now that the PS3 is "priced accordingly" (at least IMO) it's selling a LOT more. Not just to gamers, but to people who will use it mostly for Blu Ray (myself included).

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

I don't want to turn this into a Blu Ray war either but if you mean there will be another format before Blu Ray has time to settle is a little short sighted.

Short-sighted is buying into marketing numbers by the BluRay Association about adoption rates in 2009 vs. adoption rates of technology 15 years ago. The data was published as 'hey look, we aren't dead, we're doing just fine compared to the last guy'. A view that ignores 1) Expectations 2) True Market Share 3) Differences in speed of technology changes and adoption in 2008 vs. 100 years earlier.

DVD was slow to take off - so now we boast 'hey, we only suck as bad as the last guy!!'.

The challenges BluRay faces today are very much different then DVD in it's first three years. BluRay has the very notion of disc obsolescence lingering over it. The main benefits BluRay delivers (Image quality) are not exclusive to BluRay and the market is largely saying Image quality is nice, but not a showstopper. The reason BluRay sales are doing better is simply due to price cuts on the players - not because more people are being convinced it's the way to go. The years BluRay spends trying to claw back market share from DVD - it's losing the long term war with other delivery formats all together.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

Blu Ray really is nothing but a high capacity disc that is adaptable to any new technologies that come to fruition within the next decade.

But why do I need a high capacity disk to start with? I got this fat fiber pipe....

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

We haven't even begun to scratch the capacity of a Blu Ray disc.

Then why do we have multiple discs today? You're fixated on the format in the disc.. and the notion that the disc is big slow expensive thing to change. This is true about big and slow, which is why much of the competition is from delivery methods that have no fixed hardware disc to start with.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

Blu Ray has HD covered and 3D covered and anything else there is down the road until maybe full immersion holographic films are ready for public consumption lol!

You forget that very thing you are looking at right now... a PC and an Internet connection. Just look at this decade... how long did it take for technology to reach 10 million users, 100 million users, etc? Then look at recent history like twitter. Look how long it took email to go mainstream vs. facebook or twitter. The world is a vastly different place from when DVD was launched.

[MrSunnyBlack]

I don't want to argue because I really don't find any of your statements worth argueing over since you have no point. But, to address a few things:

1.) It is going to be a LONG time before tangible media is obsolete. If the average "Wal Mart" consumers are still scared to move on to a format like Blu Ray what makes you think they are going to move to something they cannot touch that can disappear if they push the wrong button? There are still MANY people in the world that aren't computer literate and there is no way those people would trust all their entertainment being digital.

2.) Whether people are convinced or not, selling is selling. The more sales the more supporters and the more players present in households means more Blu Rays bought which means more support for studios and companies like Microsoft and Mac so I don't even know what you are trying to get at here. If over 50% of American households have Blu Ray players I don't think they or studios are going to back down after their investments.

3.) So you want to store your entire film collection on a computer that could be destroyed by a virus and lost? Do you think the average American family is going to store all their films on a computer?

4.) The statment about using two discs shows you don't know the format. The films that have been using two or more discs are cheaper, smaller capacity discs. All Blu Rays aren't the same. Some have less layers then others which means less memory. Once again, look at PS3 games, those are multi-layered high capacity discs. Let me change my original statement,
"We have yet to scratch the highest capacity Blu Ray discs capabilities." Also, the technology isn't just the disc, it is also the blue laser which IS a slow and expensive thing to change. It tooks years to come to the current laser technology.

5.) How are you comparing social networking websites to consumer product?

Now, answer me this, if Blu Rays days are numbered why do all studios back it, including independant? Why are Mac and PC adding costly Blu Ray drives to computers and selling them? Why are people buying HD televisions if they don't want HD content? Why is it Blu Ray has already survived 3 years with no end in sight?

[sailerm]

Technology does not sell a format, convienacne and price does.

Blu Ray is dead on arrival. Disney is trying to fudge the blue ray numbers by releasing this package first when the whoopla and marketing is in full swing, They have a lot of money invested in blu ray, but the market is not going that way. All roads are pointed to digital downloads for most people's hi def needs (iTunes anyone?) which honestly most people don't really care about HD to start with.

What has taken off and studios have (reluctantly) responded to are 'digital copies' of films they can load on their iPod and carry with them. It's the MP3 of the movie world, and that's where people are.

And yes, the price of DVD's continue to fall, which is a mixed blessing for the studios as DVD still holds the lions share of home video (shinking)dollars, but as I said, about Wal Mart REDUCING blue ray shelf space (at least locally), it points to the restlessness of the worlds largest retailer. All that shelf space is calculated down to the square inch and how much $$$$ per day it must generate. If a product doesn't meet that minimum, Wal Mart ships them back, and gives that space to something that does sell.

It doesn't bode well for CD's that have less shelf space than before, replaced by iTune and Wal Mart gift cards, and it does not bode well for blue ray that had a full isle not two months ago, but has now been reduced to a single end cap for new releases, just as retailers are ramping up for the Christmas shopping season.

[sailerm]

Now, answer me this, if Blu Rays days are numbered why do all studios back it, including independant?

They have been bought by SONY with millions of dollars to support the format, with the promise that they will make more money per disc than DVD, and last I could tell most independent's can not release blue ray titles because manufacturing and license fees are cost prohibitive.

Why are Mac and PC adding costly Blu Ray drives to computers and selling them?

Storage capacity

Why are people buying HD televisions if they don't want HD content?

Because they can be hung like a picture frame, unlike the old tube style and rear screen projection models... and OH, the FCC took away the analog band width to sell to cell phone providers.... and here is the HDTV markets dirty little secret... most people can't tell the differance between SD and HD... they watch DVD's on $79 up converting players and are happy as clams

Why is it Blu Ray has already survived 3 years with no end in sight?

Survived, perhaps, but not thrived.... it wasted two years fighting with HD-DVD, but when it "won the war" against Toshiba, it was an empty victory. The general public didn't care.

[MrSunnyBlack]

Okay, we are obviously arguing in circles.
At the root of all this is argument of Blu Ray vs Digital. To me if anyone thinks that digital distribution is going to be the near future "format" is naive. What will happen to retailers? There is going to be an awful lot of empty buildings in the world if everything is left to be done online. What will fill the Best Buys and Electronic sections of the world? Do you think those companies are going to allow a something like iTunes to put thousands of people out of business? Not to mention, doing digital distribution gives the distributor COMPLETE control over their item which leads to a little something called MONOPOLY and the fact of whether or not you believe it, the digital items you purchase you technically don't even own and it can be taken away at any time. And as I said, what about the average 40 - 70 aged demographic? They are not apart of the digital age but are still consumers and they have another good 30 years left in them and I doubt they are converting over to digital distribution anytime soon.

People aren't buying HD TVs because of their thinness alone, there are flat SD TVs as well & much cheaper but they didn't sell.

We will see how Blu Ray fares this holiday season.

Edit: And it is funny how you mention CDs, why do you think CDs are even still in stores? CD sales have been dismal for years yet they still have a pretty large presence at retailers...Believe it or not, some people still want tangible items for their tangible money. Complete digital distribution is a dangerous road that strips consumers of their true ownership of what they are spending their hard earned money on.

[BC_DisneyGeek]

Originally Posted by sailerm

Blu Ray is dead on arrival.

What has taken off and studios have (reluctantly) responded to are 'digital copies' of films they can load on their iPod and carry with them. It's the MP3 of the movie world, and that's where people are.

Where is this coming from? One only need walk into Best Buy or wherever and see how Blu-ray has been gaining shelf space consistently since its inception.

People are building home theaters with bigger and bigger screens, and surround sound. I think that digital copies are a bonus at best.

I don't think digital downloads will replace DVD or Blu-ray, but I never saw myself giving up CDs either, and now I use iTunes for almost all my music purchases.

[Mr Wiggins]

Originally Posted by sailerm

Technology does not sell a format, convienacne and price does.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

What will happen to retailers? There is going to be an awful lot of empty buildings in the world if everything is left to be done online. What will fill the Best Buys and Electronic sections of the world?

The same thing that currently fills Circuit City stores -- air.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

Do you think those companies are going to allow a something like iTunes to put thousands of people out of business?

Do you seriously think those companies are going to be able to stop it over the long haul? How can they possibly compete with the convenience?

The amazing thing to me is how this sounds like the same argument that the film industry put out in response to television in the late 1940's, and is practically verbatim what the TV industry said about cable in the early to mid 1960's.

[Mr Wiggins]

Originally Posted by flynnibus

You forget that very thing you are looking at right now... a PC and an Internet connection. Just look at this decade... how long did it take for technology to reach 10 million users, 100 million users, etc? Then look at recent history like twitter. Look how long it took email to go mainstream vs. facebook or twitter. The world is a vastly different place from when DVD was launched.

Mega-bingo. And precisely why I and a lot of videophile friends are circumspect about embracing Blu-Ray. As ever, the times they are a-changin' -- only faster. And something so passionately fought over and controlled as Blu-Ray is extremely vulnerable to a nextgen Woz & Jobs -- who even now may be in their virtual garage, about to surprise the corporate pants off Disney, Phillips, Sony, et al.

In any event, dramatic breakthrough or steady evolution and convergence, if my bloated collection of SuperBeta Hi-Fi tapes, VHS tapes, LaserDiscs and DVDs could speak to my few Blu-Ray discs, they would say, in the immortal words of Han Solo, "Great, kid! Now don't get cocky."

[flynnibus]

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

1.) It is going to be a LONG time before tangible media is obsolete.

Agree - but tangible doesn't mean BluRay. Look at other attempts recently to meld physical media with digital media (USB albums, flash discs, digital copies of DVDs, etc).

Your grandmother doesn't define mass media - they are a captive audience that is appeased in dwindling numbers.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

There are still MANY people in the world that aren't computer literate and there is no way those people would trust all their entertainment being digital.

I'm sure that's what the record execs and their crony retailers thought too. Now how many malls have Record Shops??

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

If over 50% of American households have Blu Ray players I don't think they or studios are going to back down after their investments.

More BRA drone noise. One player per household doesn't mean much when the market demand is for convenience. If you have one blu ray player, how many DVD players do you have? One in each car, one in each computer, probably one or two in secondary rooms around your house, etc. BluRay is no where near starting to crack the market beyond the 'home theatre tv'.

The studios are in it for one reason - UPSELLING. BluRay represents their sole opportunity to stop the free fall of DVD selling prices. This 'opportunity' has zero value to the consumer, only to the vendor. So it does not represent any motivation to the consumer, and they will be dragged into the new technology, paying more as they go. This will cause a dip in sales until pricing adjusts to boost sales - and in the meanwhile the competition will continue to evolve and take up the slack.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

3.) So you want to store your entire film collection on a computer that could be destroyed by a virus and lost? Do you think the average American family is going to store all their films on a computer?

Why do you think people want to have a movie collection at all? If they can simply get it any time they want, there is no need to store a movie collection at all. And your fear certainly has held the CD market up against MP3 hasn't it?

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

4.) The statment about using two discs shows you don't know the format. The films that have been using two or more discs are cheaper, smaller capacity discs. All Blu Rays aren't the same. Some have less layers then others which means less memory. Once again, look at PS3 games, those are multi-layered high capacity discs. Let me change my original statement,
"We have yet to scratch the highest capacity Blu Ray discs capabilities." Also, the technology isn't just the disc, it is also the blue laser which IS a slow and expensive thing to change. It tooks years to come to the current laser technology.

As you can see from your own example... capacity isn't a motivating factor. PROFIT is. Using smaller discs to increase margin is all the studios care about. Consumers don't get a hard-on about 4.5G vs 9G discs. Price and convenience are the motivators of today's market. Two things BluRay sucks at and why people are calling it defective from birth.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

5.) How are you comparing social networking websites to consumer product?

Because they illustrate not just the speed at what technology changes today, but the adoption of new technology. When it's right, it SKYROCKETS today. Look at Google search, or iPhone, etc. BluRay isn't even in the same league and that is why the BluRay's 'everything is just fine!' marketing is such crap.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

Now, answer me this, if Blu Rays days are numbered why do all studios back it, including independant?

Simple - increased revenue potential. Selling $30 discs vs. $15 dollar discs. Adding 'value' to justify higher prices.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

Why are Mac and PC adding costly Blu Ray drives to computers and selling them?

But they aren't! They are just BARELY adding it as a paid upgrades.

Originally Posted by MrSunnyBlack

Why are people buying HD televisions if they don't want HD content? Why is it Blu Ray has already survived 3 years with no end in sight?

Survived vs. thrived. Very big difference. BluRay adoption is going up, no one is denying that. But it's not going up enough to win the war. It's going to have a short lifespan and not become the dominate entertainment format that DVD was.

Think about it.. DVD compatibility also lengthens DVD's lifespan. If I'm creating an interactive disc, etc... I can still ship DVD forever and save myself all the additional costs of bluray.

[sir clinksalot]

Back to the original topic at hand ... We got our Snow White Blu Ray yesterday (looks AMAZING BTW) and there is NO WAY you can confuse this for a DVD.

Not only does it say BLU-RAY right on top ... Not only is the casing BLUE ... The size of the casing is about 1/4 SMALLER than a standard DVD. If you put the case of the Blue Ray side-by-side with the case of a normal DVD, you can EASILY tell.