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  1. #181

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    I think that Dumbledore's being tempted by the Hallows shows his human side. There are very few people who would turn down the opportunity for that much power, and he said as soon as he put the ring on, he knew he was unworthy to reunite the Hallows. Through his story, Harry knew what he had to do in the end. Harry is the only one who is able to let the wand and the stone go.

    Even Gandalf tells Frodo not to tempt him with the One Ring! Dumbledore's downfall is that he lost his focus, forgot about the cursed Horcrux, and he put the ring on. Luckily he still had the insight to set the wheels in motion for Harry's success, especially since he already knew Harry's connection to the Hallows.
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  2. #182

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    It wasn't Dumbledore's fascination with the Hallows, or his power hungry nature that made me rethink my affection for him- it was the tone with which he told Snape about the fact that Harry would likely have to die. It was so impassive, so unconcerned. Snape showed more emotion and reaction to it-

    That undercut my view that Dumbledore truly cared for Harry as more than a means to an end.

  3. #183

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    I can see that, because it didn't sit quite right with me, either. But it still stands that Dumbledore had to sacrifice himself, and pre-arrange his death to ensure that it would work out in Harry's favor. I'm going to re-read the King's Cross chapter again, and the part with Snape's memories, I think.
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  4. #184

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by Nephythys View Post
    It wasn't Dumbledore's fascination with the Hallows, or his power hungry nature that made me rethink my affection for him- it was the tone with which he told Snape about the fact that Harry would likely have to die. It was so impassive, so unconcerned. Snape showed more emotion and reaction to it-

    That undercut my view that Dumbledore truly cared for Harry as more than a means to an end.
    See I read that passage and saw the compassion so maybe it was just how you took it? Not saying either one of us is wrong but with most books it's how someone interprets them.

    I can see how you thought that however, it was a very short conversation considering the topic at hand. Then again there were portions of the book where I went, "Yes, discuss this more" (and she didn't) and others I went, "Really? 80 pages for that?" (In the tent, oye!)

  5. #185

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    I just finished the book and I am very ecstatic that I was right about Snape. I knew that Dumbledore told Snape to kill him.

    I knew it!!!

  6. #186

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by SusieP. View Post
    I can see that, because it didn't sit quite right with me, either. But it still stands that Dumbledore had to sacrifice himself, and pre-arrange his death to ensure that it would work out in Harry's favor. I'm going to re-read the King's Cross chapter again, and the part with Snape's memories, I think.
    But would he have still sacrificed himself had he never been cursed by the Horcrux ring? I wonder. Or would he have found another way- because after all, you did not need to kill the bearer of the Elder Wand in order for someone else to take control of it.

    I just felt like some of Dumbledore's actions were simply winging it based on the current situations.

    I need to re-read as well- but my son has it now so it will be a while (though he is clicking along too- almost 200 pages in last night)

  7. #187

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by SummerInFL View Post
    See I read that passage and saw the compassion so maybe it was just how you took it? Not saying either one of us is wrong but with most books it's how someone interprets them.
    The scene where Dumbledore tells Snape? See, I did not read compassion at all. Dumbledore sounded very matter of fact and kind of oh well, and Snape was the one who reacted with shock.

    I'm sure it is personal intrepretation- but I did not see Dumbledore as compassionate any longer at that point- but manipulative and coldly resigned.

  8. #188

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    If you think about it, technically speaking, Harry isn't a Horcrux because he wasn't created as such. A Horcrux is, as we have been told throughout the books, the intentional use of what has been called the darkest magic to encase a part of your soul. Personally, and I'm sure others would disagree, part of Voldemort's soul unwittingly becoming attached to Harry wouldn't necessarily be a technical Horcrux in my opinion, even if it functions the same way. As a very, very poor illustration to my point, the creation of a true Horcrux would be like stabbing someone with a broken bottle, whereas what happened between Voldemort and Harry is like blowing up a bottle with a firecracker and that same person getting stabbed by shrapnel.

    Even still, I thought it was handled reasonably well.

    In my personal opinion, the last 200 some odd pages of the book (from The Missing Mirror to the end) were definitely the BEST out of this book (although it had some shining moments in earlier chapters), the best out of the series, and quite possibly, the best 200 pages of anything that I've read in my relatively short life. This is about the only book to ever make me emotional in any way. The "The Forest Again" chapter was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the beginning to the "The Flaw in the Plan" chapter. Actually, the Death Eater's treatment of Harry's body (even though he wasn't dead) seemed very reminiscent of how Aslan was treated in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, which of course had very strong connections to the Passion. Even knowing that he wasn't dead--even having known that he wouldn't die for like....oh....4 or 5 days, it was still absolutely heartbreaking.

    Even if I give myself some time before I re-read the book in full, those last 200 pages or so (I might skip the "The Missing Mirror" chapter) are a definite re-read as soon as I feel up to it.

    I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until 2010, but I think there is going to be a serious problem with doing the book justice while keeping the rating $-friendly for WB when the movie rolls around.

  9. #189

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by Nephythys View Post
    But would he have still sacrificed himself had he never been cursed by the Horcrux ring? I wonder. Or would he have found another way- because after all, you did not need to kill the bearer of the Elder Wand in order for someone else to take control of it.
    Hmmm. Don't know. But I thought that you did have to kill the owner of the wand to get it, that's why Voldemort couldn't get it to work, and that's why he had to kill Snape to gain control over the wand.
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  10. #190

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by Twist_of_Fate View Post
    Actually, the Death Eater's treatment of Harry's body (even though he wasn't dead) seemed very reminiscent of how Aslan was treated in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, which of course had very strong connections to the Passion. Even knowing that he wasn't dead--even having known that he wouldn't die for like....oh....4 or 5 days, it was still absolutely heartbreaking.

    I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until 2010, but I think there is going to be a serious problem with doing the book justice while keeping the rating $-friendly for WB when the movie rolls around.
    Totally agree, on both counts.
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  11. #191

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by Nephythys View Post
    The scene where Dumbledore tells Snape? See, I did not read compassion at all. Dumbledore sounded very matter of fact and kind of oh well, and Snape was the one who reacted with shock.

    I'm sure it is personal intrepretation- but I did not see Dumbledore as compassionate any longer at that point- but manipulative and coldly resigned.
    I would love to ask JK how she meant for Dumbledore to really be because I can see both arguments here. I think it was great that she took little jabs at all the theories out there leading up to the last book in various places through out the story. Did anyone else catch that? Like people who wanted Harry/Hermione relationship.

  12. #192

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by SusieP. View Post
    Hmmm. Don't know. But I thought that you did have to kill the owner of the wand to get it, that's why Voldemort couldn't get it to work, and that's why he had to kill Snape to gain control over the wand.
    Harry got it right. Draco disarmed Dumbledore of the Elder Wand, but never took possession of it, even though it was technically now HIS. Then Harry took Draco's normal wand, but the power of the Elder Wand transferred the new ownership to Harry. It was nothing more than a prop for Voldy to wave around and kill himself with.
    Last edited by Twist_of_Fate; 07-23-2007 at 10:22 AM.

  13. #193

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Riiiight, I forgot that Draco was the one who actually disarmed Dumbledore. Thank you!
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  14. #194

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    Quote Originally Posted by SusieP. View Post
    Riiiight, I forgot that Draco was the one who actually disarmed Dumbledore. Thank you!

    That and Dumbledore got it by defeating, but not killing, Grindlewald. (that was his name right- Gellert Grindlewald?) So murder is not needed to control the Elder Wand.

  15. #195

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    Re: Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows- Book Discussion & MAJOR spoilers-Enter at UR

    That part I got, I think I was just missing a step in the transfer process.

    I loved that Harry didn't have to use the Killing Curse on Voldemort, that he walks away soul intact AND restored to being just himself.
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