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  1. #46

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Dusty, bravo.

    Now for those wondering about the old lines being "longer" pre-fastpass...lets ask this: was "longer" defined by wait time or by number of people in line?

    I know on my second CP Jungle Cruise & Splash were updated to the new fast pass system. We didn't have FastPass for a week. Suddenly our daily waits of 45-60 mins went away. We hit about 20-25 each day. Our waits were clearly shorter. However, if you looked at our lines, we ran probably 6 to 7 sections of queue each day. On the typical day with fast pass, we run 4 on average, maybe 5 to 6 after parade.

    So we ran shorter lines but there were more people in each of them.

    So lines may be "longer" in pure lenght of measurement. But time-wise, while Pre-FP lines COULD be as long as they are now, on average they were not.

  2. #47

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by fiyero View Post
    From the posts on this thread I haven't seen people complaining that they don't know how to use it but complaining about the side affects.
    If a person is not stood in a queue for 1 hour because they have fast pass they are doing something else, which means they are theoritically in 2 queues at once so each queue is longer rather than just one queue being longer.

    Let's say BTM has a capacity of 300 people per hour. At 9:00 100 people join the standby queue, 100 people get fastpass and 100 get fastpass then straightaway join the standby queue too. That last 100 are now in the queue twice so anyone joining the queue now has 400 riders ahead of them even though there are only 200 people in the queue and only actually 300 people! Confused yet?

    If you are smart and use fastpass well you will have a better day than you would with no fastpass but the capacity of the rides is finite, the total attendance at the park will not get more rides than they would without fastpass.

    Personally I quite like fastpass as when I go it is pretty quiet anyway and I can make a judgement at each ride whether or not to use it. I hate fastpass at Buzz Lightyear as you still have to queue through the whole indoor area!
    I wasn't referring to complaints on this thread, but on the main FP thread on MiceChat. I wasn't trying to going into the whole FP debate (You appear to like them yourself like I do). I total understand the side effects (both perceived and real).

    In response to your Hypothetical situation, The number of people "in front" of you is undetermined, since there is no way to tell which of the people who have valid fastpasses will actually use them while you are waiting in the stand by line.

    And FYI, I teach math at the college level, so numbers rarely confuse me

  3. #48

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Also, lest we forget that the times Disney post at the entrance to the queue are often, well, total b****cks, so it can't be judged on whether BTM is posting a 90m queue really. I'm sure these queue postings are very strategic, even to encourage people to use FP. Of course I know that some have experience with actual queueing.

  4. #49

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinyee View Post
    fastpass introduction may be instantaneous, but adoption certainly wasn't. As a weekly visitor to disney parks since 1987, i've seen the complete range of reactions since 1999 when fp was introduced, and it's only been recently that everyone truly understands that you must use fp to avoid being taken advantage of. (even then, it's not 100% of the visiting population). So the transition to the fp world has been gradual.

    As for what lines were like before fp, agreed that the "big, new, summer" ride for the year has always had two hour lines. But if you were to transport to 1998 to anaheim, one year before fp became available, you would find no two-hour lines. You'd see 30 minute waits on the big mountain rides (sometimes forty, sometimes twenty), but a reasonably spread out wait time everywhere else across the park.

    this isn't just conjecture. I've literally visited a disney theme park twice a week since 1987 - some 1200 visits in all - and it's plain to see that fp has fundamentally altered the way things work. And not for the better, except for those who visit so often they are fine with obtaining a fp and only riding one ride that day. I'm fully aware that my own, weekly-visiting habits benefit most from a
    fp-enabled world, but i still think fp should be abolished. i want the disney park visitors to have a good time, not a bad time at my expense.
    amen!!!!!

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disney_Dad View Post
    The ugly face of capitalism indeed. Although I accept that Disney is a business with the save profit motivation as businesses the world over, I'd like to think that once in the park we could all be valued equally and leave the dirty rat race of the outside world behind for a few hours. Very disappointing.
    Some of America's most popular airlines--in terms of customer satisfaction surveys--are/were those that had one class and where the staff strived to treat every customer like a VIP. (JetBlue, SW, Midwest)
    Does Disney want guests on rides to feel like they are passing the first class section on their way to coach?

  6. #51

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    The thing is, this already happens in the USA with celebrities and anyone else willing to pay the park oodles & oodles of cash. It's just not widely seen amongest the viewing public. People who kick in extra cash get extra service.

    I say anyone willing to put up 100 euros (approx $133 USD if I have the math right) for unlimited FP access is entitled to what they're paying for.

    Honestly, people are freaking out far too much about this, and the anti-FP'ers are going far, far overboard. *looks in Dustysage's direction*

    Is WDW creating second, third, fourth class guests by tiering their Resorts into Deluxe, Moderate, Value?

    Is WDW creating second class guests by offering certain dining experiences at a far greater cost than other dining experiences elsewhere in the Resort?

    Does Disney create second-class guests by offering special hotel rooms to DVC members (i.e. the ones who can afford DVC membership)?

    How about those rich folks who could afford Pal Mickey? Was everyone else who felt like $75 was a bit much made to be a second-class guest by its offering?

    This is simply one more step along the very same lines Disney's been following for years upon years now. It's nothing earth-shattering, and nothing that hasn't been done before by Disney and others. Extra service costs extra money. It's the way of the world. Businesses are foolish to not provide premium service options on some principle of one size [of service] fits all.

    Therefore, I say kudos to Disney for offering this, and I hope we see it here in the USA sometime.

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  7. #52

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    I’ve seen a lot of comparisons to paying extra for different Hotel and Restaurant experiences on Disney property, as a reason to allow different levels of experience within the parks. But for me, those are two completely different issues.

    If I go to a National Park, Yellowstone Park for example, I can stay in a cheap Motel outside the park, or stay in an “in park” expensive lodge. It is my choice! But, when I go out on the boardwalk and watch “Old Faithful” show her stuff, the experience is equal to all. The sooner you get out there, the closer you are – no matter how much you are paying for food or lodging. And, in my opinion that is what the “anti” fast pass (or anti pay) proponents are asking for – an equal experience inside the park.

    I agree! And, it does seem to be in the spirit of what Walt was trying to go for too!
    For some of you, this will be an apples and oranges thing – but just a thought!

  8. #53

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Wow, that sucks. im sorry, i cant believe they would charge that much for a stupid fast pass, ugh im waiting for it to happen here in california. They are getting so money hungry. I really wish walt was around to regulate.

  9. #54

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by ajolielips18 View Post
    Wow, that sucks. im sorry, i cant believe they would charge that much for a stupid fast pass, ugh im waiting for it to happen here in california. They are getting so money hungry. I really wish walt was around to regulate.
    When this launches in the US, it will be seen as yet another money hungry move by the Disney corp and it will likely further erode the brand. Disney once stood for quality experiences and I'm willing to pay top dollar for that. But there is a line of greed that the company often steps over these days that is quite distasteful.

    There is a much larger risk to this than the company may realize in making its guests feel overly abused financially. And with the internet and social media, moves like this can have terrible consequences marketing wise.

    I defended FastPass for many years because I liked being able to make an appointment for a favorite ride. But if the goal is simply to suck even more money out of my wallet or make the stand-by lines even longer for those who can't pay, then it just isn't worth it. Pull the darn machines out of the parks!

    This is nothing like paying for a nice hotel or restaurant. If I stay in a nice hotel or eat at a fancy restaurant, it doesn't hurt anyone. But if I pay for a fastpass, it makes the lines in the park longer for those who don't pay (or can't afford to pay). And that just isn't right.

    I'm willing to pay for quality, but this is just plain evil corporate greed!

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  10. #55

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Of course Disney stratifies us with its hotels and dining. I've always felt uncomfortable with the fact that the Disneyland Hotel guests' kids get so much access to the characters whilst the others have to queue for ages at a meet and greet, but I can just about accept it.

    This is not a matter of absolutes but degrees of differentiation between guests. Disney should go no further than it already has in this direction. Yes it is one more step down the path they've been following for years, but it is a step too far in my view.

  11. #56

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    I didn't have time to read what Dustysage wrote above before I posted, but I wholeheartedly agree with his comments.

  12. #57

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustysage
    This is nothing like paying for a nice hotel or restaurant. If I stay in a nice hotel or eat at a fancy restaurant, it doesn't hurt anyone. But if I pay for a fastpass, it makes the lines in the park longer for those who don't pay (or can't afford to pay). And that just isn't right.
    Then I take it that you'd have absolutely no problem with this if it was shown that it won't make the lines longer for those poor, socially oppressed people who aren't like the rich fat cats who can pay all this money?

    But remember what I said in the very beginning - this already happens in the USA!! It happens with celebrities, and anyone else who calls up the DLR and promises to spend oodles of cash if Disney accommodates them this way or the other. If I'm following your logic accurately, do those offerings not similarly make the lines longer? Have they not already made them longer for years?

    The premise that half a park's population should be stuck in queues at any given moment is especially troubling to me, and makes absolutely no sense to theme park owners/managers. If their guests are stuck in line, they aren't riding rides. They are not eating in restaurants. They are not perusing gift shops. They're not doing what they came to the park to do, which is have fun. They're stuck in line. I don't know how it is for you guys, but by and large, guests don't like to be stuck in line. They want options to avoid the wait. Businesses by their very nature have an obligation to give the public what they want. Disney's doing exactly that here. It makes total sense.

    This just doesn't seem like the battle to pull the "evil, corporate greed" card on. Surely there could be times for that, but this just doesn't seem like one of them. Many, many other parks in the USA have pay services to escape being stuck in the queue. People want it. People will pay for it. Disney would be hurting themselves in opportunity costs not to offer this.

    Your crusade is based on that these services somehow hurt people by making lines longer, but as I said earlier, if FP, paid or unpaid, hurts people, then every other tiering of services likewise hurts people. I simply do not see how there could be an intellectually honest argument made to the contrary. When a hotel offers a premium room, that takes space away from their "regular" rooms. Meaning they have x number less "regular" rooms because the premium rooms are there. Are the non-rich people now hurt because there are less "regular" rooms for them?? When a premium restaurant is built inside a park, it takes space away from where a "regular" restaurant could be built. Are non-rich guests hurt now too because a premium restaurant was built instead of one for them?

    I look at airplanes, hotels, restaurants, resorts, theatres, stadiums, anyplaces where people go for a day of entertainment, and I see premium options everywhere I go. Are all these places evil for hurting the ones who "can't" pay & making them sit higher, farther back, etc than ones who are willing to pay more for a more premium product? I don't think so. Businesses do this in order to survive. If they didn't, they'd be sacrificing the money that could be made by not making these offerings. Disney is a publicly owned company, whether we want to think of it that way or not, and it will do what it will do to survive.

    Really, I think you guys could do a lot better by shelving your torches & pitchforks and realizing that this is simply a business move. It doesn't "erode the brand" at all to me. It's just another step forward in the 21st century. Now if your larger premise is that this is evil because all businesses are inherently greedy and therefore evil, I can't really help you. But I think that's where you're really going if you paint this 100 Euro/$133 upcharge service as "greed going too far". I just don't think enough people will be buying this per day for it to have any sort of negative impact at all. It's just another option for those who do wish to partake of it.
    Last edited by PeoplemoverMatt; 06-24-2009 at 07:29 PM.

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  13. #58

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
    Your crusade . . . you guys could do a lot better by shelving your torches & pitchforks
    Well, judging from the tone of what you wrote, you think we are all nuts.

    But I still hold that if a group of 100 people are all walked to the front of a line because they paid for it, the poor folks left to stand in line ARE going to be left waiting.

    So, yes, in my opinion this does boil down to greed and pay for play. Those who pay will be able to ride as many attractions as they want. That most certainly will result in those who don't pay being able to enjoy less of the parks.

    As I stated before, Disneyland is a business known for a high quality product. I'm willing to pay for that. But certain things cross a line from premium priced into gouging and is going to make the Walt Disney Company look really bad from a marketing perspective.

    But you are certainly entitled to your opinion, even if you don't respect mine.

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  14. #59

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by jcruise86 View Post
    Some of America's most popular airlines--in terms of customer satisfaction surveys--are/were those that had one class and where the staff strived to treat every customer like a VIP. (JetBlue, SW, Midwest)
    Does Disney want guests on rides to feel like they are passing the first class section on their way to coach?
    They want money. They want more and more.
    This is a dirty game they are playing and the field for that game is Disneyland. The idea to get paid extra for giving guests fastpasses is idiotic in so many ways and can never be approved by a person with sense and soul.
    Disney has no shame left in their body when it comes to Paris. The park is dirty and the rides are all broken or damaged in some way. The park is rotting.

    Atleast the waterfall at the castle works, "WOW"!
    Last edited by TimmyTimmyTimmy; 06-25-2009 at 05:22 AM.
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  15. #60

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    Re: Disney's Fast Pass is not free anymore !

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyTimmyTimmy View Post
    Disney has no shame left in their body when it comes to Paris. The park is dirty and the rides are all broken or damaged in some way. The park is rotting.
    Clearly you have not been to WDW in a very long time. Paris is almost perfect in comparison.
    Let's put the Walt back in Disney!





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