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  1. #331

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    First off... nothing is not what we're getting. It is still going to happen, it is just delayed while they evaluate the situation.

    As for the park getting a huge boost from the new version, that depends on if people can even afford to come to the parks. If the economic situation worsens, people will seriously begin to curtail vacation trips to expensive resorts and parks. Putting in a brand new ride at a time like that is not usually a smart move. It has nothing to do with "budget cutting, skinflint, cheapo ways" at all... but with very real and serious economic considerations.

    I can understand frustrated because the rumors have been around for so long, but with those who have been talking about it, and because of how old the ride is, you can bet pretty surely that this will happen. Just not right now.

    I'd prefer they use money that could go into construction for maintenance and such while the economy is in a downturn and then, when things start looking up again, they announce the new projects and spark new excitement and saving for crowds to return to the parks. Use the new attractions to drive attendance back up once things start looking up again.

    All this is is a slight pause to look around, take in the lay of the financial landscape.
    They're not delaying a project that will be launched in the teeth of a recession. They're delaying a project that could have been ready by 2010 or 2011, by which time the recession will probably be over, or at least be winding down. By delaying it now, they may be pushing it back to 2012, 2013 or beyond. Where is the sense in that? What is Star Tours, in its current incarnation, going to do for them for the next 4-5 years or more? Fall into neglect and ever dwindling popularity? Great business plan, guys.

    You can argue that people wouldn't come anyway if they can't afford to. Well, attendance to theme parks has dropped, but there are still quite a lot of people going. So among those who can still afford to go, maybe they will only visit once in the next few years, because of a dearth of new rides. And some people who are on the fence about going may decide that it's not worth it -- again, because they've done all the rides umpteen times, and there was nothing new, so they decide not to go. Discretionary spending companies like Disney will feel the impact of a recession, no question about it; but decisions like the ST II delay will only make things worse.

    It's funny, the movie business keeps making lots of movies no matter how the economy goes, and spending huge sums to make them. They know they can't rest on their laurels and just keep selling DVDs of their previous releases. But Disney's theme park division gets a pass from you guys, because they don't want to spend the price of one new $100 million + blockbuster to create an attraction that would draw crowds for decades at one of their parks?
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 10-15-2008 at 03:15 AM.

  2. #332

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    As for scaling back projects during uncertain economic times...that's short sighted and foolish. It costs a lot more to shut a project down, then pay to get it going again once the economy picks up (and inflation has done it's nasty business, increasing costs even more) after you have interrupted the project's momentum. A company like Disney has to take a much longer view than that; they have to know that the economy will turn around sooner or later, so why let the company fall behind by delaying eagerly awaited projects?

    Did Disney decline when they instituted round after round of mindless budget cuts? They sure did, and today they're still trying to recover from years of such blunders. I hope the Disney apologists on this chat and elsewhere won't encourage them to repeat those mistakes.
    a) This is not a budget cut. This is a hold. This basically means "it's going to happen, just not right now." And since they haven't made anything official they can bloody well do whatever they please. There could very well be other factors in here that we don't know about.

    b) Let's assume the worst... let's assume that the economic situation does not get better for 6-8 years. Let's assume a major economic recession bordering on depression. Putting in a new ride doesn't make much sense when people are barely scraping by. If people can't even afford to pay bills, they certainly can't afford a vacation to Disneyland. Putting in a new ride in that case isn't going to drive attendance at all. It simply isn't. From the things Hunter said on BlueSkyDisney, this is a short pause (for half a year to a year to see what happens. By Springtime there will be really good indications of what is going to happen, a rebound or further and deeper decline. Inflation and costs are not going to increase in that short a time (and with an economic slowdown, some costs may decrease (things are already starting to get cheaper as fuel prices drop drastically). It also gives WDI extra time, something I guarantee you they ALWAYS want, to further tighten up their designs and find ways to make them better without really spending more than they already are.

    If this were a large, well, let's shelve this for 4 years, then yeah, I'd be worried about it as well, but that is not the kind of hold that this is. It's a let's take a breath, wait till the spring and take a look at the situation and see where we are. If it's going to get bad, then it really could be a bad thing to put in a brand new multi-million dollar attraction. If things are going to look up, even if it will be slow, then it is worth it.

    This is not me being an appologist, this is me giving you a reasonable economic/financial explanation of the decision. I am every bit as eager for this to be built as anyone else on here. I love Star Tours v1.0, but boy does it desperately need a change... more even than a baby with a 3 week old diaper.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  3. #333

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    Star Tours is 21 years old, and most people agree that it's getting long in the tooth (even me, and I like the ride!). If they delay it for several years, I certainly hope the second version will be awesome. It better be.

    As for scaling back projects during uncertain economic times...that's short sighted and foolish. It costs a lot more to shut a project down, then pay to get it going again once the economy picks up (and inflation has done it's nasty business, increasing costs even more) after you have interrupted the project's momentum. A company like Disney has to take a much longer view than that; they have to know that the economy will turn around sooner or later, so why let the company fall behind by delaying eagerly awaited projects?

    One of the keys to the theme park business is new attractions. A lot of people get a "been there, done that" feeling once they've done the same rides a number of times. It's foolhardy to push projects back for years and years just because of how the current economic winds are blowing. How many times can they disappoint the fans and get away with it? You may say "oh they get your money anyway", but I would answer: how much of your money? How much repeat business do they lose by not offering a product that is up to its full potential? How much business do they lose when Disneyland or the Magic Kingdom once again has nothing new to offer this year? How many people cancel their APs, when maybe they would have renewed it if there was even one more new ride or attraction in a given year?

    Any company not willing to take calculated risks and consistently reinvest profits is one doomed to fail, or at least to slowly decline. Did Disney decline when they instituted round after round of mindless budget cuts? They sure did, and today they're still trying to recover from years of such blunders. I hope the Disney apologists on this chat and elsewhere won't encourage them to repeat those mistakes.


    Don't look at Disneyland with that mouth. They added Pirate's Lair and Finding Nemo Submarines... both in 2007. I'm fine with 2008 getting a break because Toy Story Midway Mania opened over in DCA along with Pixar Play Parade. 2009 will see the return of It's a Small World, and whatever baggage that will bring. Yes it is sad that a return of an old ride counts as a new one but that's just how the dice rolls now.

    And Yes absolutely, tomorrowland is in horrible shape and I want them to fix it NOW. But unfortunately without one intelligent driving creative force (walt disney), things just aren't that easy anymore. Things get planned out over and over again, working all the possible scenarios before one is selected to go forward on. And that INCLUDES Star Tours because it's not 1959 anymore where 3 E-Tickets can open all at once. I miss those days but financially, they can't blow their wad all at once.

    As long as they haven't started digging, no project has been "shut down".

    Star tours 2 IS being worked on, no need to worry about that. Tony Baxter admitted it in public. He admitted it to me one-on-one. He admitted it to a panel just a month ago that it is indeed on its way. Anthony Daniels admitted to working on it years ago. Some CG special effects guy on Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull said in an interview that he was working on it over the summer. Steve Sansweet of Lucasfilm was the only one who denied it, trying to shush Anthony Daniels' statement.


    This ride is one that will be probably added to just about every Disney flagship park world wide. They're not going to release it until it's perfect. And I'm fine with that thought. As long as Tony said "it's coming", then that's all I need.

    I personally still love the original Star Tours. I wouldn't mind a digital projection though. That'd be nice.


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  4. #334

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    If they're delaying it in order to get it just right, then maybe that will be worth the wait. But if they're delaying it because they won't go ahead until they're sure the economy is turning around...I can't get behind that. Say they "re-evaluate" six months or a year from now, and it's still unclear where the economy is going, so they put it on the backburner again. Then another year or so after that, the economy is starting to pick up...ok, they give it the green light again. Now they have to start the slow, painful process of rehiring people, yanking people off other projects, etc., and it takes at least another 6 months just to get started again. Meanwhile, the economy is picking up, and guess what? Star Tours II has been unnecessarily pushed back by three years. Groan. If they had just kept moving instead of being wishy washy, they could have had it opened near the end of the recession, when people are ready to spend again. Instead, they weasled out and what do they have to offer that's new? One or two new rides at DCA (unless those were pushed back, too) and nothing new at Disneyland or WDW. Oh, wait, they will have one thing to offer! It'll be a grand annoucement: "Star Tours II coming summer 2016!" Oh, goody...more waiting.

    Oh, but Mycroft talks about worst case scenarios. So a company should make decisions based on the possibility that the worst will happen? Last time I looked, Disney was worth hundreds of billions of dollars -- and they'd rather play it safe? In business, the safest thing is taking smart risks; sitting on your laurels may feel safe, but is actually the most dangerous thing to do. And since when would investing hundreds of millions break a company worth $50 billion or so?

    You know what word best describes Disney management today? Gutless. They have access to vast resources, and seem afraid to use them. Walt had more courage in his pinkie then the entire management team put together. Sad.

    I'll tell you something else, even if North America is in for a long, protracted recession, they still have to open new rides and attractions. If they don't, their business won't just decline; it will tank. According to Mycroft's logic, if the recession lasts for five years, Disney should open nothing new for five years. If it lasts ten years, they should open nothing new for ten years. Do they want to have a dozen people in the park on any given day? Are they going to try to sell the same old (very old) product for ten years?

    Build it, and they will come. That principle holds true in all but the worst economic situations. And even if they don't get the same crowds as they normally would for a few years, imagine the benefits of giving top value for the money even during a recession, the Disney good will and reputation intact. And imagine the pent-up demand from Disney-starved patrons when the economy does turn around, when there is more than one attraction that they've never experienced? People who couldn't afford to go during the recession might now go three times in a year. But what happens if Disney management was sitting on its hands for all that time? People have money to go to the parks again, and the parks have nothing new to offer except some big announcements for rides that will open three years from now. Don't do us any favors, guys.
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 10-15-2008 at 03:57 AM.

  5. #335

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Opening something new does not guarantee people in the parks. What does is people with money to spend. If people don't have money to spend, then people don't come to the parks. It is just that simple. Parks all over have seen attendance slow down. Even Disney has seen a little bit of that. Not as bad because the mentality is, "if I can only go to one park this year, I want it to be the best, Disney." However, if things continue to worsen, even that mentality won't hold and vacations will turn into shorter distance, local trips.

    Sadly, businesses don't think like you stated any more. They don't see the value of spending tens of millions for fewer guests. They would rather keep that cash and maintain at top notch the status quo and then use the new attraction to drive attendance when things turn around. Sadly, it's just how businesses think. I'm not saying it's necessarily right or wrong, but it is how they think. It's not how Walt thought though, as Coheteboy explained. He wasn't so much concerned with the money, that was Roy's job, and Walt made it a pretty hectic job many times.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  6. #336

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    First, did anyone for a second actually believe that we were getting Star Tours 2 SOON? We've got plans of DCA until 2012. I didn't expect to see Star Tours pop up before then or even immediately after.

    Would I like a new star tours? sure. But there's a lot more attractions out there that are in MORE need of attention. Here's where my priorities are (probably in the minority): I would rather they tear out A Bug's Land before they add Star Tours 2. I would rather they redo the rest of Tomorrowland before they do Star Tours 2. etc etc.


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  7. #337

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    It would be one of my top DL priorities, but I agree that DCA needs the attention more and all of TL needs help bad. If they scaled the DCA plans back, then I would be discusted by the lack of forsight as DF121 says, but that's a totally different situation then one ride that's just an upgrade even if it's an awesome one and it is something that has been officially announced.
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  8. #338

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    First, did anyone for a second actually believe that we were getting Star Tours 2 SOON? We've got plans of DCA until 2012. I didn't expect to see Star Tours pop up before then or even immediately after.

    Would I like a new star tours? sure. But there's a lot more attractions out there that are in MORE need of attention. Here's where my priorities are (probably in the minority): I would rather they tear out A Bug's Land before they add Star Tours 2. I would rather they redo the rest of Tomorrowland before they do Star Tours 2. etc etc.
    Why would they even bother with a Star Tours 2 then? Disney should strike while the franchise is still hot and the audiance is still pretty young.

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostbuster626 View Post
    Why would they even bother with a Star Tours 2 then? Disney should strike while the franchise is still hot and the audiance is still pretty young.
    The franchise has been hot for 41 years solid. Don't think it's cooling off.

    And it has been through 3 generations of audiences and is into its fourth "young" set now.

    So these really aren't considerations.

    Personally I'm not really expecting anything until the rides 25th anniversary. It is 21 years old. That means a possible 4 years out still. It would also mean it would open the same year as Carsland would and that the vast majority of the DCA project wraps up.

    Really though... who knows but those actually making these decisions. Just because several people invovled with it have said things and dropped hints does not mean it is official. Official is when Disney puts out a press release and makes an announcement. Disney hasn't. People associated with the project have. Big difference.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  10. #340

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    The franchise has been hot for 41 years solid. Don't think it's cooling off.
    Wouldn't that be 31 years?

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    Wouldn't that be 31 years?
    Yes, thank you. Not a good day to be attempting math apparently.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  12. #342

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostbuster626 View Post
    Why would they even bother with a Star Tours 2 then? Disney should strike while the franchise is still hot and the audiance is still pretty young.

    I suppose what they should have done was strike when the prequels were hot. But if you recall, the ride came 5 years after the last trilogy. 2012 and 2017 are important years for Star Tours. Let's hope it's no later than the latter.


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  13. #343

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Opening something new does not guarantee people in the parks. What does is people with money to spend. If people don't have money to spend, then people don't come to the parks. It is just that simple. Parks all over have seen attendance slow down. Even Disney has seen a little bit of that. Not as bad because the mentality is, "if I can only go to one park this year, I want it to be the best, Disney." However, if things continue to worsen, even that mentality won't hold and vacations will turn into shorter distance, local trips.

    Sadly, businesses don't think like you stated any more. They don't see the value of spending tens of millions for fewer guests. They would rather keep that cash and maintain at top notch the status quo and then use the new attraction to drive attendance when things turn around. Sadly, it's just how businesses think. I'm not saying it's necessarily right or wrong, but it is how they think. It's not how Walt thought though, as Coheteboy explained. He wasn't so much concerned with the money, that was Roy's job, and Walt made it a pretty hectic job many times.
    Of course nothing is ever guaranteed. But I think I can pretty much guarantee one thing: if you open nothing new for several years, you stagnate. I think what worries me the most is the possibility that they will also delay the DCA projects (or severely cut back on the DCA budget). That would be a colossal blunder, compounding the mistakes they've already made with that park.

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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    Of course nothing is ever guaranteed. But I think I can pretty much guarantee one thing: if you open nothing new for several years, you stagnate. I think what worries me the most is the possibility that they will also delay the DCA projects (or severely cut back on the DCA budget). That would be a colossal blunder, compounding the mistakes they've already made with that park.

    Well that's a real debbie downer attitude to have. Do you really think that they'd let DCA's 10th anniversary be as bad as you suggest? They're a business and what you're describing is obviously the equivalent of suicide.

    They've announced this stuff to the public. there are small details that are subject to change, but all this stuff is set. The budget has been approved. They're going forward. This isn't the same as announcing plans that they'd LIKE to do (like they did with the Long Beach park or Westcot). These are set in stone plans that they are fully committed to.

    Yes, the world is in a financial crisis right now but it won't be like that forever. Entertainment companies are actually in the best position to be, because everyone always needs some sort of escape. Whether it be movies, videogames, television, music, or theme parks. WDW might be one to suffer a great deal, but Disneyland has the local support.

    I think it'll be fine.


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    Re: Disneyland Project Tracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    Don't look at Disneyland with that mouth. They added Pirate's Lair and Finding Nemo Submarines... both in 2007. I'm fine with 2008 getting a break because Toy Story Midway Mania opened over in DCA along with Pixar Play Parade. 2009 will see the return of It's a Small World, and whatever baggage that will bring. Yes it is sad that a return of an old ride counts as a new one but that's just how the dice rolls now.

    And Yes absolutely, tomorrowland is in horrible shape and I want them to fix it NOW. But unfortunately without one intelligent driving creative force (walt disney), things just aren't that easy anymore. Things get planned out over and over again, working all the possible scenarios before one is selected to go forward on. And that INCLUDES Star Tours because it's not 1959 anymore where 3 E-Tickets can open all at once. I miss those days but financially, they can't blow their wad all at once.

    As long as they haven't started digging, no project has been "shut down".

    Star tours 2 IS being worked on, no need to worry about that. Tony Baxter admitted it in public. He admitted it to me one-on-one. He admitted it to a panel just a month ago that it is indeed on its way. Anthony Daniels admitted to working on it years ago. Some CG special effects guy on Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull said in an interview that he was working on it over the summer. Steve Sansweet of Lucasfilm was the only one who denied it, trying to shush Anthony Daniels' statement.


    This ride is one that will be probably added to just about every Disney flagship park world wide. They're not going to release it until it's perfect. And I'm fine with that thought. As long as Tony said "it's coming", then that's all I need.

    I personally still love the original Star Tours. I wouldn't mind a digital projection though. That'd be nice.
    Maybe disney should spend less time screwing around with It's A Small World which doesn't need major changes and spend more time on Star Tours 2.

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