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  1. #136

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    It was recorded but not used by the original Imagineers. It was unofficially added back in later. It was removed in recent years to honor the Imagineers' original intent
    Well that's kind of dumb. The story of the Haunted Mansion was pretty thin as it was, and now not even explaining why there is a floating head there makes it even worse.

    In other words, to use your analogy, Mr. Liver, you think sitting in said Hummer and enjoying the ride is better than sitting in the Hummer while calling GM with a brilliant idea for how to make the brand more eco-friendly?
    If you buy a hummer, you pretty much accept that the thing will guzzle gas and put out a few metric tons of CO2 a day. Why would you, knowing that, want to make it more eco friendly? If saving the earth was your thing, you'd probably have already bought a hybrid.

    The point of course here being that while people decry the downfall of Disneyland, how things are worse now than ever before, how management doesn't care etc. etc., they are still willfully going to the park and giving up their money. It is hypocritical to say the least.

  2. #137

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    If you buy a hummer, you pretty much accept that the thing will guzzle gas and put out a few metric tons of CO2 a day. Why would you, knowing that, want to make it more eco friendly? If saving the earth was your thing, you'd probably have already bought a hybrid.

    The point of course here being that while people decry the downfall of Disneyland, how things are worse now than ever before, how management doesn't care etc. etc., they are still willfully going to the park and giving up their money. It is hypocritical to say the least.

    This is a logical fallacy. You can buy a hummer because you like the stylings and look of it and then convert it to hybrid electric (yes, people do this because they do want an eco-friendly hummer). So that comparison doesn't really add up.

    It seems to me, Mr. Liver, that you are an all or nothing kind of person. Black and White are the only options. No grey at all. People like tech continue to go to Disneyland and show their support for the park, but at the same time the make note of problems and report them and try to get them fixed. People like that are what we all need to be like.

    I get the feeling that if your favorite restaurant suddenly dipped in quality you would simply stop going without taking any sort of an action to improve their quality so that you didn't have to lose that experience. You seem to be reactionary rather than proactive.

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing your or trying to belittle you, just seeking to understand your personality a little better since you and I end up at odds fairly often around here. If I'm wrong, accept my apologies for that. I'm just going off what I know of you based on our lengthy back-and-forths in past threads.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  3. #138

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Well that's kind of dumb. The story of the Haunted Mansion was pretty thin as it was, and now not even explaining why there is a floating head there makes it even worse.
    I tend to agree. It's not a catastrophic removal, but I'd much rather have those lines included.

    If you buy a hummer, you pretty much accept that the thing will guzzle gas and put out a few metric tons of CO2 a day. Why would you, knowing that, want to make it more eco friendly? If saving the earth was your thing, you'd probably have already bought a hybrid.
    If one had an unavoidable reason for buying a Hummer or similar vehicle, it would still be better to try improving upon the brand in some small way than to simply pretend there was nothing wrong with it. Obviously, avoiding the Hummer is the ideal situation...if and only if there's not an even more important reason to buy it.

    The point of course here being that while people decry the downfall of Disneyland, how things are worse now than ever before, how management doesn't care etc. etc., they are still willfully going to the park and giving up their money. It is hypocritical to say the least.
    Obviously, anyone who sees problems with the management and so forth yet continues to visit the park doesn't think the problems are currently bad enough to warrant such a boycott. It is not hypocritical to have a good time in the park, appreciate the effort that went into providing such a quality experience, and then also acknowledge ways in which it could be improved. That's where I am right now. The park is still amazing to me, and I invariably have a great time there. There are problems, but they haven't ruined the place. If I boycotted it, Disney would lose less than $200 a year. I, on the other hand, would lose up to several days' worth of exhilaration a year, not to mention the lingering satisfaction resulting from the memories and reference for my model I obtain by taking unusual photos. It's not a good tradeoff. That is why I'm not a hypocrite, and neither is techskip.


  4. #139

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    And now I post, on page 10, in complete shock that one dirty fish could spark such a huge debate about the various aspects of Disneyland
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  5. #140

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    I know, right?


  6. #141

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Certainly complaints that people who frequent the park contribute to the run down nature of the park are valid... correct?
    Incorrect.

    Park management contributing insufficient maintenance to the park contributes to the run down nature of the park.

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  7. #142

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Reminder,







    As part of MiceChat's FAQ's, Personal attacks are not allowed.

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    You can attack the post, but if you cannot refrain from attacking each other, this thread will be closed.

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  8. #143

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    If I boycotted it, Disney would lose less than $200 a year. I, on the other hand, would lose up to several days' worth of exhilaration a year, not to mention the lingering satisfaction resulting from the memories and reference for my model I obtain by taking unusual photos. It's not a good tradeoff. That is why I'm not a hypocrite, and neither is techskip.
    Agreed.

    I tend to think that nit-picking something you love is one way to keep things in check. No one wants to let Disneyland fall apart. Sitting back and just letting things be doesn't help. Attention to detail is something that I hope the Disney Parks never forget.

    Posting this info on here, or e-mailing Disney, or leaving a comment at City Hall is better than boycotting. I think boycotts are usually unsuccessful and don't really get much of a message across... like how some people try to get people to boycott gas, or a movie, or a videogame, etc.

  9. #144

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    This is a logical fallacy. You can buy a hummer because you like the stylings and look of it and then convert it to hybrid electric (yes, people do this because they do want an eco-friendly hummer). So that comparison doesn't really add up.
    The intent of the analogy was sound. In that one person does an action which contradicts what they say. I think that was quite clear.

    I get the feeling that if your favorite restaurant suddenly dipped in quality you would simply stop going without taking any sort of an action to improve their quality so that you didn't have to lose that experience. You seem to be reactionary rather than proactive.
    Disneyland is far different from a restaurant.

    Let's say that I wanted to fix the problems at my local restaurant though. Complaining to the management would probably not help at all. The first people to notice a change in quality are the people that work there. The same holds true for Disneyland - the people who work there are already aware of what's going on in the park, far more in depth than anyone here on the internet.

    To address the problem you have to search and look at the causes of the problems. For most of the folks here it's easier to just blame bad management and improper budgets, but no one ever takes the time to ask why those two conditions exist. There are a couple folks on here who really understand where the root of the problems lie, but they are few and far between.

    Not even knowing or understanding the root of the problems, how could you call anyone here proactive? Posting pictures of damage on the internet really does nothing. Disney is aware of most of the problems, and they have a team of people that go through the park and fix things. They fix far more things in the course of a week than the collective group of MiceChatters are even aware of. They can't fix everything right away and some things take longer than others.

    Posting pictures of broken items in the park is really just an exercise in futility. Disney will fix those items when they have the chance, and in the mean time more things will break. If you go often enough you will see imperfections with increasing frequency, simply because you didn't have the time to notice them before. I just wonder if we will have to endure weekly photo updates of everything broken in the park before long.

    Anyway to answer your question, no I don't believe everything has to be black and white - but I do try to be as consistent as possible. I also believe that if you are going to complain about the condition of the park, and start to make notes on how shabby it looks, you at least make the effort to understand why the park looks that way - understanding beyond just thinking management is made up of a bunch of evil villains with top hats and monocles sitting in TDA twirling their mustaches.

  10. #145

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless Abrandon View Post
    Posting this info on here, or e-mailing Disney, or leaving a comment at City Hall is better than boycotting.
    One last note. The fan community really has no bearing whatsoever on what Disney does.

    Probably the one person who has been more vocal and proactive in pointing out problems at Disneyland is Al, who has been doing it for a little over 10 years now. He ran a website to get Paul out of Disneyland, ran another website which garnered a lot of media attention to point out burned out light bulbs and still even today runs his columns to point out problems.

    But it's been ten years now and nothing has changed. Not a thing. People still complain about the condition of the park and people still complain about the managers (even though they are completely different now).

    Unless someone comes up with a better plan than posting on the internet, nothing will change.

    Like I said, an exercise in futility.

  11. #146

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Disneyland is far different from a restaurant.

    Let's say that I wanted to fix the problems at my local restaurant though. Complaining to the management would probably not help at all. The first people to notice a change in quality are the people that work there. The same holds true for Disneyland - the people who work there are already aware of what's going on in the park, far more in depth than anyone here on the internet.
    I can't agree with that. At a restaurant, if you tell them "hey, I just saw a rat run across the dining room" they'll look into it and take care of it, especially if they see it right after you say something.

    If enough people complain that the food is horrible in a restaurant, and sales begin to drop, of course they'll notice that.

    A high end restaurant is very similar to Disneyland in the sense that they pay attention to details. Look at the Vineyard Room in DCA. Best service in DLR. They honestly take care of you there. If you tell them that your wine glass or silverware have water spots or aren't clean, they'll notice. In both Disneyland and in a restaurant, we are their customers, and they serve our needs. It just depends on how much detail each pays attention to.

    As for the internet thing, you're right, usually it doesn't cause a stir to post images or post paragraphs of info, but you never know who's reading what. If these fish don't get cleaned within a year, maybe something's wrong? Or maybe not? Like you said, we don't know what's completely going on behind the scenes, but Disneyland's stage shouldn't be neglected.

    I think this thread just means someone cares more than others. I personally wouldn't have posted this, but I understand why.

  12. #147

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    One last note. The fan community really has no bearing whatsoever on what Disney does.

    Probably the one person who has been more vocal and proactive in pointing out problems at Disneyland is Al, who has been doing it for a little over 10 years now. He ran a website to get Paul out of Disneyland, ran another website which garnered a lot of media attention to point out burned out light bulbs and still even today runs his columns to point out problems.

    But it's been ten years now and nothing has changed. Not a thing. People still complain about the condition of the park and people still complain about the managers (even though they are completely different now).

    Unless someone comes up with a better plan than posting on the internet, nothing will change.

    Like I said, an exercise in futility.

    Good example. Ten years and nothing. But on the flip side, how do we know that the parks wouldn't be worse if he didn't complain? Yes, people will always complain about their managers, usually because people fail to see the bigger picture. They work in customer service... being on stage, you have to provide the illusion that people are in another world.

    Do we know that someone isn't being paid slightly above minimum wage to monitor internet sites on the look for details of pranks, crime, etc? And that they may also be looking at comments, etc for ideas? It's a long shot, but like you said, we don't know.

    But boycotting is just as futile unless you can get a large enough population to stop going. To be vocal and proactive like Al and succeed, you need a large enough following as well. It works both ways.

    It's a bit of a stretch, but it's similar to internet security, disease prevention... just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because it doesn't look like someone's complaints are doing anything doesn't mean it isn't doing anything.

  13. #148

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless Abrandon View Post
    I can't agree with that. At a restaurant, if you tell them "hey, I just saw a rat run across the dining room" they'll look into it and take care of it, especially if they see it right after you say something.
    Who is more likely to see a rat first?

    A customer who comes in maybe twice a week and sits in the dining room? Or a cook who is in the kitchen every day? Or a steward who is running in and out of a pantry? Or the manager who is there every day inspecting the kitchen, dining room and pantry?

    If a restaurant has rats running around, more than likely the employees already know. Certainly if you want to make sure you can tell the managers, but then telling the managers privately that you saw a rat is still a far cry from posting pictures of the rat on the internet.

    If enough people complain that the food is horrible in a restaurant, and sales begin to drop, of course they'll notice that.
    And why is the food horrible? Is it because the restaurant lost their chef due to a labor dispute? Did they have to change their ingredients because the increase in gas prices caused commodity prices to increase? Did their sales drop because the factory down the street closed?

    There could be a thousands factors as to why the food is horrible. Telling the managers that the food is horrible does not guarantee that they will be able to do anything about it. And again telling the managers that the food quality has decreased in private is far different than posting it on the internet.

  14. #149

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckless Abrandon View Post
    But boycotting is just as futile unless you can get a large enough population to stop going. To be vocal and proactive like Al and succeed, you need a large enough following as well. It works both ways.
    Oh I have absolutely no doubt that boycotting is useless. The only purpose for suggesting it is to allow those who suggest their visits are negatively affected by these imperfections a chance to be consistent between their actions and their thoughts.

    For most of these people who complain, the park is still an enjoyable experience and they will continue to go.

    But if they continue to go to the park, then the park must be doing things right. Even if they are doing the bare minimum to keep people coming back, they are still getting people to come back. They are still reaching their gate numbers and still bringing in money.

    Perhaps everyone who is about to nitpick something should add a disclaimer to their post that says "this is not a severe enough infraction to deter visitation to the park."

    FWIW - I have faith that the fish will be fixed. Eventually.

  15. #150

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    Re: Sadness at Snow White's Wishing Well

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Who is more likely to see a rat first?

    A customer who comes in maybe twice a week and sits in the dining room? Or a cook who is in the kitchen every day? Or a steward who is running in and out of a pantry? Or the manager who is there every day inspecting the kitchen, dining room and pantry?

    If a restaurant has rats running around, more than likely the employees already know. Certainly if you want to make sure you can tell the managers, but then telling the managers privately that you saw a rat is still a far cry from posting pictures of the rat on the internet.



    And why is the food horrible? Is it because the restaurant lost their chef due to a labor dispute? Did they have to change their ingredients because the increase in gas prices caused commodity prices to increase? Did their sales drop because the factory down the street closed?

    There could be a thousands factors as to why the food is horrible. Telling the managers that the food is horrible does not guarantee that they will be able to do anything about it. And again telling the managers that the food quality has decreased in private is far different than posting it on the internet.
    I was merely replying to your concept of seeing Disneyland being far different from a Restaurant. I wasn't comparing posting on the internet to complaining to a manager.

    Every business has customers. Do the customers care if commodity prices increased? Not really, unless their prices at the restaurant significantly increased. Do the customers care if the chef is having a bad day? Nope. Or that Ariel just broke up with her boyfriend? Except for the fanboys and the creepy middle aged men, not really.

    Not telling the managers that their food is horrible is worse than just accepting it.

    Have you worked at a restaurant, or retail store? There are always managers that don't really pay attention to details. There are employees that don't care if something like a roach crawled across the floor. They just want their pay check.

    Ever get a hair in your food? If you don't complain, they won't know. A lot of things blow by the manager. And if there are enough complaints about weird stuff in food, then of course the manager can tell. Some things can only be gauged by the customer. Why do you think stores have those surveys on their receipts?

    Again, I'm not saying that this is anything similar to complaining online, just your comment about Disneyland being different than a restaurant.

    There are many things that management doesn't see, and things that employees don't care about, and vice versa. Like you said, we don't know. What we do know is what is presented to us "on stage".

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