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  1. #136

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    There will be so much more excitement for an update to Star Tours, than the lack of change to existing rides in paradise puddle.
    I want to know what crystal ball you're looking into. But I'm fine settling with disagreeing.

  2. #137

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    There will be so much more excitement for an update to Star Tours, than the lack of change to existing rides in paradise puddle.
    LACK of change!? Are you kidding me!?

  3. #138

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Aladdin- the green thing is Randal as others have stated, not sure why they went with green since he's purple on the version posted on the exterior of the cellar (yes I know he can change colors but it looks like a typo).

    Flynn- I actually have very low expectations of the park as a whole. IMO just about anything they do is going to be a plus. As I said my annoyance is the willingness to show us what is there, instead of what they plan on doing. I also found it comical that so much space was dedicated to showing the public new games they will be charged to play! NM that people are entering the park to ride attractions... let's make a bunch of models of the games... to me that was comical.

    Concept art is exactly that, concept art. But you can glean information from it if you compare multiple works. For example, Indy, though various concept art pieces you could logically deduce that it is a jeep ride. You could also deduce that it takes place in an ancient ruin. Some would hope the JC would go through it (which was in earlier concepts) but even without that you still see several key scenes in that piece which were made! Let's apply that to TLM. Every concept including the model in the movie have an omnimover clam shell... care to make a logical guess as to what the vehicle might be? The board said "based on the music" and we have scenes of Ursula in the cave, Ariel and Eric in a Rowboat, and a model of lots of fish singing and Sebastian in the middle... care to logically guess what scenes we might see? We could then take it a step further and watch the movie that it is based on and then wonder... what order do you think the ride scenes might be placed in? This isn't HM, or Pirates, this is a ride based on a movie that we all know and some of us love (myself included). If I use Indy as a model, and if history repeats itself, then there is plenty that can be deduced by looking at MULTIPLE concepts.

    I also see this as a peace offering mainly because of the local fanfare involved in the project. Disney has tried desperately to shed the image of DCA not being kid friendly and has repeatedly promoted every detail to boost it's numbers. People are willing to buy a day pass for Disneyland... but not nearly as many will buy one for DCA. Even the 2fer is locally known as buy Disneyland get DCA free. This holds some truth to it because everyone floods Disneyland throughout the promotion but the DCA numbers don't ring in until the last couple weekends. Then there is the obvious complaints from the fan community almost since the birth of DCA. The constant complaints and DCA bashing. Disney held two previews; one for Media and one for AP's. Media is required... why hold a second one for AP's? Why is it so important to show this off to the AP's if the AP's as you have hinted are "clued in"? They could easily have gone with a soft opening if they felt they needed to "fine tune" the show.

    The exhibit will be going for a few years but it isn't a daily or monthly change out. From what Al has described (which appears accurate given my sources as well) you are looking at six month change overs. So anything out there will be out there a minimum of four or five months, possibly longer depending on changes. Common sense would have been to break it up a land at a time... show people the little models and all the various concepts (which would be varied) and let everyone dream. Instead we have a current attraction, and a bunch of games that we will have to pay to play.

    I love concepts, and I especially enjoy the early concepts of Disneyland. It's fun to look at the various artwork and project into them. It allows for a window into what people were thinking. Look at the Rocket Rods concepts... they were amazing... the ride... not so much!
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  4. #139

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicWDI View Post
    I want to know what crystal ball you're looking into. But I'm fine settling with disagreeing.
    How do you know it isn't the Magic 8 Ball?
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  5. #140

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Manning View Post
    LACK of change!? Are you kidding me!?
    It's not difficult to see the lack of change to the existing rides

    The Gigantic monolith Screamin' is still a six flags/knott's looking coaster, Nothing is really being done with it - the ferris wheel is still a ferris wheel, Mickey's Twister just has the orange twist removed, Maddness sounds like it is only on life support until phase 2. The puddle will get a show for night only, but this large puddle still doesn't serve for any attractions or rides during the majority of the operating portion of the day. Paradise Puddle is still going to look very much like what it did on opening day - and it still look like Knott's from outside the park, too.

    Pressler's Puddle is a problem that Disney seems incapable of overcoming.

  6. #141

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    It's not difficult to see the lack of change to the existing rides

    The Gigantic monolith Screamin' is still a six flags/knott's looking coaster, Nothing is really being done with it - the ferris wheel is still a ferris wheel, Mickey's Twister just has the orange twist removed, Maddness sounds like it is only on life support until phase 2. The puddle will get a show for night only, but this large puddle still doesn't serve for any attractions or rides during the majority of the operating portion of the day. Paradise Puddle is still going to look very much like what it did on opening day - and it still look like Knott's from outside the park, too.

    Pressler's Puddle is a problem that Disney seems incapable of overcoming.
    A lot of this can be addressed by theming the entire area instead of a specific attraction. Screamin is, and will always be, a roller coaster. With minor adjustments to the queue, new ragtime soundtrack, and new paintjob to the cars you could pull off a "turn of the century woody" effect. The question is will Disney make the effort? The Mickey's Fun Wheel will be a ferris wheel no matter how good or bad Mickey's head looks on it. What will set it apart is the attempt to theme it, and the color scheme chosen. The Swings are another example. They will be swings... ok... but the effort that goes into them and the theme that resonates from them is what will set them apart as "Disney". I still think having a rotating Mickey on the very top is a mistake because no one on the ride will be able to see him! Goofy's Sky School is IMO the one project no one wants. How do you fit airplanes in to a beach theme and even if you squeeze it in who wants to do the work and put their heart into it if it's going to be ripped out in a few years anyways? the thing is, it's removal hinges on an "if" so if it isn't ripped out then we have a crap ride with a half a$$'d theme. Sure there were Barnstormers in the late Victorian but that didn't have a lot to do with the beach! Placing TLM next to it may have the same effect that TSMM has on the Carousel. The beauty of one points out the glaring eyesore of the other.
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  7. #142

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    The Gigantic monolith Screamin' is still a six flags/knott's looking coaster, Nothing is really being done with it - the ferris wheel is still a ferris wheel, Mickey's Twister just has the orange twist removed, Maddness sounds like it is only on life support until phase 2. The puddle will get a show for night only, but this large puddle still doesn't serve for any attractions or rides during the majority of the operating portion of the day. Paradise Puddle is still going to look very much like what it did on opening day - and it still look like Knott's from outside the park, too.
    Well nothing really can be done to Screamin', but they are going improve it however they can. The ferris wheel may still be ferris wheel, but the queue & overall structure itself is going to look much nicer... More Victorian. And, it's not a puddle, it's a great feature. And World of Color is going to be one of the most spectacular nighttime shows Disney has ever put on! Just as good as, if not better than Fantasmic!

  8. #143

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Manning View Post
    Well nothing really can be done to Screamin', but they are going improve it however they can. The ferris wheel may still be ferris wheel, but the queue & overall structure itself is going to look much nicer... More Victorian. And, it's not a puddle, it's a great feature. And World of Color is going to be one of the most spectacular nighttime shows Disney has ever put on! Just as good as, if not better than Fantasmic!
    If any imagineer say "nothing really can be done to Screamin", they should be FIRED! If I heard an imagineer say "bulldoze Screamin and the ferris wheel" THEY should be given a raise.

  9. #144

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Manning View Post
    Well nothing really can be done to Screamin', but they are going improve it however they can. The ferris wheel may still be ferris wheel, but the queue & overall structure itself is going to look much nicer... More Victorian. And, it's not a puddle, it's a great feature. And World of Color is going to be one of the most spectacular nighttime shows Disney has ever put on! Just as good as, if not better than Fantasmic!
    The Pier is a lost cause as a theme. doesn't matter if it looks better with lipstick, i still wouldn't kiss a pig.

    And you know what, it really isn't a puddly, because at least a puddle is fun to jump into. The pier's puddle nighttime water show will have the reviews coming in, in the near future, so how it compares to luminaria, Fantasmic, IllumiNations at Epcot, will be debated then. But for nearly eight years, it has been a useless wasteland, not used at all during the day. Disney used to know how to best use it's resources, look at all the different attractions used on the Rivers of America. Rivers of America also added to the beauty of the park with a natural type setting. Pressler Puddle fails miserably in comparisson. And it will serve for ZERO future daytime attractions of rides. A COMPLETE and UTTER wasteland.

  10. #145

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    My concern with DCA's re-do is that it simply does not go far enough. Yes, after a four-year wait, we'll end up with an E-ticket (Radiator Springs Racers) and a D-ticket (The Little Mermaid). And yes, we'll also have a nighttime show which, of course, should have been there years ago. Nothing else I've read indicates they're breaking any new ground (rethemeing buildings and existing attractions such as Mulholland Madness, Maliboomer, etc.???) Yes, the park formerly-known-as-DCA will be better; but will it be enough? To say it will soon be similar to TDS is nothing less than an insult to TDS.

    We keep hearing (though most often on these boards) that this is only Phase 1; nothing I've seen officially says anything about future phases.

  11. #146

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    The Blue Sky Cellar wasn't entertaining for me since I already knew about the new rides and retheming. I did take some photos and was only in the Blue Sky Cellar like 15 minutes tops.

  12. #147

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by surffnutt3000 View Post
    My concern with DCA's re-do is that it simply does not go far enough. Yes, after a four-year wait, we'll end up with an E-ticket (Radiator Springs Racers) and a D-ticket (The Little Mermaid). And yes, we'll also have a nighttime show which, of course, should have been there years ago. Nothing else I've read indicates they're breaking any new ground (rethemeing buildings and existing attractions such as Mulholland Madness, Maliboomer, etc.???)
    Well, as I've said, I certainly have my issues with this makeover, but its scope is not one of 'em. You've forgotten these major elements:

    * One or two minor Cars Land attractions in addition to RSR.
    * Cars Land itself. Fabulous, immersive rockwork. A barrier between the park and the real world. An escape to a place you can't just visit in real life. Yes, it will be breaking a lot of new ground right where a parking lot currently is.
    * The all-new entrance. They're not just changing the tiles on the roofs, you know. It's going to be a completely new (and much more Disneyish) look for the bleakly modern entrance we have today.

    Bear in mind also that they're spending more on the refurb than they did to build the park in the first place. If the numbers I've read are correct, that is. That's not a small investment.

    However, yes, Paradise Pier will still have the same fundamental problems as it currently does, though they won't be as blatantly drastic.


  13. #148

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    Fly, obviously, there will be some changes to the proposed ideas in the preview center, and you can't get ALL the details from what is on display, BUT the preview center does and should be showing the best of what Imagineering has to offer.
    I'm sure it will over it's lifespan - but they can't play all their cards on day one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    Disney best look at the criticism, before it blows another Billion on the same BAD idea!
    When you see how much is being done on that area.. its obvious its not getting the lionshare of the money.. so how much do you think it would take to start over in that area? Some things just may not be feasible.. and since you are looking at the country going into a 3-5 year slowdown like we are now - the picture isn't likely for someone to spent another 500+million to throw away attractions that still have life in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    Except for the little mermaid ride, in PP, it's all lipstick on a pig. And no one has the courage to say it.
    I've never thought the announced plans so far will make a significant difference. I see it as a few key attractions, and some make-up on the rest. But, one also has to recognize they aren't starting over - 1 billion isn't nearly enough to start over.. let alone the amount of write-offs that would be required to get rid of all the existing stuff. It's just not a financial decision the public TWDC could afford to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    As I said my annoyance is the willingness to show us what is there, instead of what they plan on doing. I also found it comical that so much space was dedicated to showing the public new games they will be charged to play! NM that people are entering the park to ride attractions... let's make a bunch of models of the games... to me that was comical.
    Well I think the idea of having such games as part the attractions is a total waste anyways. Have that be some part of the environment, be it sounds, sights, smells, have it AAs playing the games... but I don't see guests ever playing these in ways that don't make them seem like the empty game stalls they have always looked like.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Concept art is exactly that, concept art. But you can glean information from it if you compare multiple works. For example, Indy, though various concept art pieces you could logically deduce that it is a jeep ride. You could also deduce that it takes place in an ancient ruin. Some would hope the JC would go through it (which was in earlier concepts) but even without that you still see several key scenes in that piece which were made!
    Yes, and you are also using hindsight to focus on things that did make it to the final result, and not the countless elements that did not. I never said the concepts were 100% off - you just can't read between every line and hold that as a comparison when the product is complete. It's just not the intended use.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    then there is plenty that can be deduced by looking at MULTIPLE concepts.
    Of course - especially when one is looking at MATURE material. But you can't hold all concept art to the same standard - especially when its material shown to you as an early phase. The art is almost always going to have key elements that do stick and are common - those tend to be the elements that have already been decided But many other elements may just be artistic freedom, or even undecided concepts. I don't see why anyone would consider comparing the result to the early concept art and try to grade the success of project based on that art. The art is usually a visualization of ideas - not necessarly plans that have yet to even be reviewed to see if they were even possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Why is it so important to show this off to the AP's if the AP's as you have hinted are "clued in"? They could easily have gone with a soft opening if they felt they needed to "fine tune" the show.
    AP != hard core fan, and not all APs are so obsessed with Disney to be fully up to speed with all the public info and rumors about the expansion. The fact there was an AP preview doesn't really project anything really. Why do they do all kinds of things for APs? Because it provides perceived added value for an AP and because AP holders have come to expect preferential treatment. Disney wasn't snooping for AP approval when they do AP-previews for new attractions - they are stroking the AP base.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    The exhibit will be going for a few years but it isn't a daily or monthly change out. From what Al has described (which appears accurate given my sources as well) you are looking at six month change overs. So anything out there will be out there a minimum of four or five months, possibly longer depending on changes
    So even by that math - that is at least 8+ iterations of this showcase. That's a ton of work and material. I think you'll see smaller elements traded out all the time, but the large elements (like the model and movie) are going to be much longer tenants.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Common sense would have been to break it up a land at a time... show people the little models and all the various concepts (which would be varied) and let everyone dream
    That again assumes you are laying out a specific preview, a guide of what is happening.. which they aren't really. I bet you find entire concepts in there eventually that never happen period.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    A lot of this can be addressed by theming the entire area instead of a specific attraction. Screamin is, and will always be, a roller coaster. With minor adjustments to the queue, new ragtime soundtrack, and new paintjob to the cars you could pull off a "turn of the century woody" effect
    I think that is going to be hard to do in the local vicinity of the attraction given the emphasis and prominance given to the launch Much of the visuals given to Screamin' were to give the effect at a distance. I think that can be further expanded up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    The pier's puddle nighttime water show will have the reviews coming in, in the near future, so how it compares to luminaria, Fantasmic, IllumiNations at Epcot, will be debated then.
    I personally have no expectation for world of color to be good. Without the live performances, or fireworks, I fail to see where they are going beyond that will strike a chord with the audience.

    But at the same time.. I fail to connect with the value most adults see in the parades, so maybe it just doesn't work for me.
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  14. #149

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Well, as I've said, I certainly have my issues with this makeover, but its scope is not one of 'em. You've forgotten these major elements:

    * One or two minor Cars Land attractions in addition to RSR.
    * Cars Land itself. Fabulous, immersive rockwork. A barrier between the park and the real world. An escape to a place you can't just visit in real life. Yes, it will be breaking a lot of new ground right where a parking lot currently is.
    * The all-new entrance. They're not just changing the tiles on the roofs, you know. It's going to be a completely new (and much more Disneyish) look for the bleakly modern entrance we have today.

    Bear in mind also that they're spending more on the refurb than they did to build the park in the first place. If the numbers I've read are correct, that is. That's not a small investment.

    However, yes, Paradise Pier will still have the same fundamental problems as it currently does, though they won't be as blatantly drastic.
    I didn't forget those "major" elements at all......

    * The minor Cars Land attractions - I do believe the operative word here is "minor". It's O.K. to have smaller attractions along with the big, but I simply can't give them much credit for "off the shelf, but nicely themed".

    * Cars Land itself - I expect this area to be terrific, but the emphasis will be on the Radiator Springs Racers attraction, something I noted in my previous post. Rock formations??? Other than it being one part of the overall look, not impressed. There are rock formations in front of Tomorrowland, and most of us are awaiting the day they're removed. A barrier between the park and the real world??? For DCA, it's about time.

    * The all-new entrance - Again, nice, but something that should have always been there. The particular design of it isn't groundbreaking at all; it's very similar to the entrance of one of the existing Florida parks.

    I agree a ton of money is being poured into the makeover - it's very much needed.

  15. #150

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    Re: First Look At the Blue Sky Cellar at California Adventure

    Quote Originally Posted by surffnutt3000 View Post
    and a D-ticket (The Little Mermaid)
    Oh come now, Little Mermaid will be an E-ticket! Just like Haunted Mansion or Pirates.

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