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  1. #16

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    So, I guess I have a simple question: How “relevant” is the puppy-dog-tame Haunted Mansion to today’s youth, and why shouldn’t its interior be gutted in favor of upgrades that would mirror more closely what today’s youth find terrifying, horrifying and…well…“relevant?”
    The Haunted Mansion was never meant to be a horror movie. More of a musical comedy. There were folks in the company that wanted it to be an all out thrill and chill scare house - but that was one of the great first arguments to evoke "What would Walt Do."

    I wouldn't worry about the story being as relevant as the atmosphere and effects. The Haunted Mansion just *feels* like the 1960s and that's a problem. Disney has already said that they are worried about the mansion being relevance to today's audience, hence the addition of more effects and technology.

    I don't think gutting the whole thing is the answer, but I would like to see more effects and technology added. The video projectors in Nemo provide a much better experience than the peppers ghosts effects. I also think they should remove the scrims in the graveyard. If they want fog - they can bring in fog machines. The scrim projections never work right anyway.

  2. #17

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Jr. View Post
    I for one have experienced PM.

    I am like you that I have an overall preference for HM because I love it and grew up with. But I think that PM is such an amazing new take on the original and that the imagineers really outdid themselves. Those are the kinds of attractions they should put in every park. The design and storyline is like that in a movie and the soundtrack is just amazing.

    I grew up with PM, and although I will say it is my favourite as like many others 'I grew up with it' I also love HM, for without HM there would be no PM.
    Both are amazing, and both very fitting of the culture....

    though I will say when I was young PM scared the poop out of me and for the first few visits I would ride through with my eyes closed shut... it depends on the person for the overall scare factor! So nothing needs to be changed! Gore movies have de-sensitised todays youth to more subtle and genius means of scares....

    Well ALAS! I will leave on this note .... if you want 'Gore' wait for halloween season and go to one of the many haunts... if you want good family fun.. Go to Disneyland... PROBLEM SOLVED!!

  3. #18

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    My dear MrLiver, you actually started out your post with something I can agree with wholeheartedly! But luckily, you didn't leave out some stuff I can argue with:

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    The video projectors in Nemo provide a much better experience than the peppers ghosts effects.
    I haven't seen FNSV in person yet, but most of the people I've talked to disagree with that statement. And in any case, the FNSV projections are two-dimensional by nature, which immediately diminishes their realism when compared to the fully 3D nature of Pepper's Ghost effects.

    I also think they should remove the scrims in the graveyard. If they want fog - they can bring in fog machines. The scrim projections never work right anyway.
    Absolutely incorrect. If they bring in fog machines, it'll be immediately obvious that the singing busts are projection effects. The illusion will lose all its realism and effectiveness. Fog machines are 100% out of the question when it comes to the graveyard, attic, and exit crypt. Removing the scrims would be interesting, but it'd also make it easier to see the edges of the scene, which would be problematic. They'd also be rather difficult to remove, as there are two of them that stretch from floor to ceiling - a good 30 feet in many places - and they wrap around the entire scene, overlapping each other. But I'm sure it could be done if Disney decided it was worth it.


  4. #19

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post

    Absolutely incorrect. If they bring in fog machines, it'll be immediately obvious that the singing busts are projection effects. The illusion will lose all its realism and effectiveness. Fog machines are 100% out of the question when it comes to the graveyard, attic, and exit crypt. Removing the scrims would be interesting, but it'd also make it easier to see the edges of the scene, which would be problematic. They'd also be rather difficult to remove, as there are two of them that stretch from floor to ceiling - a good 30 feet in many places - and they wrap around the entire scene, overlapping each other. But I'm sure it could be done if Disney decided it was worth it.
    maybe just make it darker so that the scrims are less visable....
    lighting in the graveyard seems to be getting brighter all the time!

  5. #20

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Attractions based on haunted houses, pirates and jungle cruises will always retain their relevance because they are such widespread, well-known concepts. Attractions based on specific books and movies will tend to lose their relevance over time. So, Swiss Family, Tom Sawyer and Captain Nemo become somewhat dispensable.

  6. #21

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by AshleyJaded View Post
    maybe just make it darker so that the scrims are less visable....
    lighting in the graveyard seems to be getting brighter all the time!
    Making it a little darker would indeed be nice.


  7. #22

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    I haven't seen FNSV in person yet, but most of the people I've talked to disagree with that statement.
    You should see it for yourself before you make up your mind.

    And in any case, the FNSV projections are two-dimensional by nature, which immediately diminishes their realism when compared to the fully 3D nature of Pepper's Ghost effects.
    How are the pepper's ghosts effects 3d and the nemo projections 2d? Both are being projected onto a 2D surface.

    Absolutely incorrect. If they bring in fog machines, it'll be immediately obvious that the singing busts are projection effects.
    They don't have the scrims where the busts are - so I don't see how that would affect the busts at all. And I am guessing that the fog effect really isn't that important since they never have any fog projected onto the scrims anyway. They should just simply get rid of them because they look horrible and obscure the view of the graveyard for seemingly no reason.

  8. #23

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    You should see it for yourself before you make up your mind.
    Absolutely. I wasn't trying to pass judgment on it; just offering the observation that a lot of people I've talked to would disagree with your statement.

    How are the pepper's ghosts effects 3d and the nemo projections 2d? Both are being projected onto a 2D surface.
    No, they're not. Pepper's Ghost doesn't involve projections at all. It's a reflection in glass. Reflections are every bit as three-dimensional as you and I are. [EDIT: Erm...let me rephrase that. They appear to be every bit as three-dimensional as you and I appear to be.] The way light bounces off of a surface like a mirror or glass means that depth perception is every bit as real as when you're dealing with the objects themselves. Projecting two-dimensional images onto two-dimensional surfaces is a very, very different effect. It looks...well, two-dimensional.

    They don't have the scrims where the busts are - so I don't see how that would affect the busts at all.
    I'm not sure you're understanding me. When you use a fog machine in a room where light is being projected in a certain direction - a projection, a laser, a spotlight, etc. - the path of the light becomes very visible. If they used fog machines in the graveyard, you'd see five lovely beams of light shining out of the bushes next to the track, right toward the five busts. Your brain would instantly go, Oh, they're projecting the movies of the faces onto the busts. Suspension of disbelief would be impossible. It'd look terrible. Something like this. (The inset is from DLP to show the beams of light coming out from behind the rocks; imagine them coming out of the bushes here at DL.)



    (Original photos from here and here; Photoshopping by me.)

    Now imagine the faces moving, as usual...and the streaks in the beams of light moving in perfect synchronization. It'd be a ridiculous setup. The effect completely relies on you not being able to tell it's a projection. And because of that, the air in the graveyard must be kept quite free of particulate matter like fog.

    Besides...I don't know what you were getting at when it comes to the scrim placement, but you were flat-out wrong. One of the scrims comes within 2.5 feet of the bust on the right. The other is thirty feet away.

    And I am guessing that the fog effect really isn't that important since they never have any fog projected onto the scrims anyway.
    I see it every time I ride.
    Last edited by Datameister; 11-01-2008 at 03:03 PM.


  9. #24

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    No, they're not. Pepper's Ghost doesn't involve projections at all. It's a reflection in glass.
    They both use light being reflected off of glass. I'm not an expert in the projection technology, but since the concepts are fairly similar I would assume there are few limitations in making this work. I'm sure that Imagineering will eventually get an effect in there that they can be proud of.

    I'm not sure you're understanding me. When you use a fog machine in a room where light is being projected in a certain direction - a projection, a laser, a spotlight, etc. - the path of the light becomes very visible.
    But we're talking about the scrims where the fog is (should be) projected. They are on the opposite side of the vehicle path from the busts. If WDI was really committed to the fog effect (which I am not at all) then I'm sure they could come up with a way to either control the fog with air vents and circulation or projecting the images of the busts from inside the busts with fiberoptics (as they did with Madame Leota for years).

    Of course that's only if they are committed to keeping the fog effect which doesn't even work now anyway. The only thing I am advocating is for the removal of the scrims.

    I see it every time I ride.
    In ten years I've only ever seen the fog projected on the scrims in front of the opera singers. I've seen the ghosts projected on the scrims above the busts, but never any fog - and never any fog projected around the rest of the graveyard.

    Of course these were just some ideas of my own. I'm sure WDI has many more ideas to freshen up the mansion in the coming years.

  10. #25

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Disneyland is a family place. The people who love scary stuff aren't going to like the Haunted Mansion. For families it's entertaining. I love it.
    "To All Who Come To This Happy Place Welcome" - Walt Disney

  11. #26

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    So, I guess I have a simple question: How “relevant” is the puppy-dog-tame Haunted Mansion to today’s youth, and why shouldn’t its interior be gutted in favor of upgrades that would mirror more closely what today’s youth find terrifying, horrifying and…well…“relevant?”
    SHHHHH Don't give anyone any ideas.

  12. #27

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    They both use light being reflected off of glass. I'm not an expert in the projection technology, but since the concepts are fairly similar I would assume there are few limitations in making this work.
    No, they don't. The effects you see in FNSV are more akin to the flying, 2D ghosts you see projected on the scrim as you leave the attic scene. They're projected on a flat piece of nearly transparent, clothlike material. The resulting light is scattered in all directions - each molecule of the scrim is bouncing light indiscriminately, all over the place. This is called diffuse reflection. The result is a completely two-dimensional image that your depth perception will place exactly where the scrim is. Never in front, never behind.

    When you see the reflection of a three-dimensional object in glass or in a mirror or whatever, the phenomenon is quite different. Light is reflected off of each point on the smooth surface at predictable angles. The result is a coherent, three-dimensional reflection that appears to be on the other side of the surface. The distance from the object to the surface is the same as the distance from the surface to the reflection - that means that depth perception is preserved. This is called specular reflection.

    Trust me on this. The two phenomena both have valid uses, but they are very different. FNSV uses two-dimensional images. The HM ballroom uses three-dimensional images. That's the way it is - no personal opinions or debatable statistics involved.

    But we're talking about the scrims where the fog is (should be) projected. They are on the opposite side of the vehicle path from the busts.
    Like I said, that scrim comes within thirty feet of the projectors. That's not far at all. Diffusion comes into play - the fog wants to spread as far as it can, becoming thinner and thinner but filling the entire room.

    If WDI was really committed to the fog effect (which I am not at all) then I'm sure they could come up with a way to either control the fog with air vents and circulation
    Perhaps. It'd be difficult, but I can't claim to know for sure if they'd be unable to do it.

    or projecting the images of the busts from inside the busts with fiberoptics (as they did with Madame Leota for years).
    That's a possibility, I suppose. The technology has problems, though. They stopped using internal projection for Leota because it wasn't looking right. They use it for Buzz in the BLAB queue because that's the only way to do it with a moving AA, but it doesn't look right. It's pretty obvious that you're looking at a projection. I'm sure the technology will come a long way in the future, but I wouldn't want to see the singing busts changed until that point - they work so perfectly already.

    In ten years I've only ever seen the fog projected on the scrims in front of the opera singers. I've seen the ghosts projected on the scrims above the busts, but never any fog - and never any fog projected around the rest of the graveyard.
    Fair enough. I suppose I've only seen the fog projected in that spot.


  13. #28

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Trust me on this. The two phenomena both have valid uses, but they are very different. FNSV uses two-dimensional images. The HM ballroom uses three-dimensional images. That's the way it is - no personal opinions or debatable statistics involved.
    Oh I believe you on the technical details, but I still believe that the projections in Finding Nemo are a much more satisfying experience than the reflections from the pepper's ghosts effects. The nemo projections are brighter, clearer to distinguish and much more animated than the AAs could be. Hopefully someday they will find a way to bring this technology to the ballroom.

    That's a possibility, I suppose. The technology has problems, though. They stopped using internal projection for Leota because it wasn't looking right.
    I can't remember for sure - but I was under the impression they only stopped using the internal projections, because they wanted to try to floating head effect which required the head be unteathered by the fiberoptic cables.

    The problem with the outside projections on leota are obvious - the projectors leave a giant orb of light shining off the glass ball. That was exactly the kind of problem they were trying to eliminate with the internal projections.

    The problem with buzz is that they are projecting a 3D facial image onto a 2D surface. That wouldn't be a problem with the busts in the HM. They could certainly do it for the busts in the graveyard, but I think it would be needlessly expensive.

    Again I only suggested using fog machines as an alternative to the scrims, if they were commited to the effect. My main point was that the scrims should be removed.

  14. #29

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Oh I believe you on the technical details, but I still believe that the projections in Finding Nemo are a much more satisfying experience than the reflections from the pepper's ghosts effects. The nemo projections are brighter, clearer to distinguish and much more animated than the AAs could be. Hopefully someday they will find a way to bring this technology to the ballroom.
    Like I said...the projections have valid uses, but I strongly suspect that you'd feel quite differently if you actually saw this done. It'd actually look very amateurish and not at all convincing, due to the necessary limitations of scrim projection effects. For instance, imagine seeing all the ghosts seated around the dining table, looking exactly as they do now...except for a few "minor" issues:

    * The ghosts seated on the far side of the table appear to be right next to the ghosts seated on the near side.
    * The ghosts are as flat as sheets of paper.
    * The ghosts can still be seen when they go behind the table. (Or the ones in front of the table nevertheless get visually blocked by it, depending on how you set it up.)
    * There may even be faint images of the ghosts visible on nearby surfaces such as the table and floor.
    * Here's the kicker...you know those scrims that annoy you in the graveyard so much? You'd be looking at/through a more easily visible scrim in the entire ballroom scene. It'd be painfully obvious.

    No thank you.

    I can't remember for sure - but I was under the impression they only stopped using the internal projections, because they wanted to try to floating head effect which required the head be unteathered by the fiberoptic cables.

    The problem with the outside projections on leota are obvious - the projectors leave a giant orb of light shining off the glass ball. That was exactly the kind of problem they were trying to eliminate with the internal projections.
    The internal projection effect was removed in 2001, I believe. Madame Leota began floating in...2005, perhaps? 2006? It was a number of years later. I don't think the internal projection was replaced because of that.

    The problem with buzz is that they are projecting a 3D facial image onto a 2D surface. That wouldn't be a problem with the busts in the HM.
    That's a rather confusing statement. I assume you mean that the lack of realism for the Buzz AA's face is a result of the footage being computer-generated, not photographic? That definitely factors in, yes. But another big issue with the internal projection is that you need a translucent surface - the light hits the inside of the surface, but it needs to be seen from the outside. The translucent materials they use tend to make it very difficult to get enough contrast for it to be realistic. The problem would be somewhat mitigated in HM by the darkness, I believe, but it's still difficult to get that much clarity and contrast in an internal projection.


  15. #30

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    As most here know, the term “relvance” is often flung about on these boards in intellectually-weak attempts to make excuses for the various dumbing-down changes that have occurred at the Park over the past few years. Swiss Family Treehouse was dumbed-down with a “Tarzan” makeover because—so we are told—Tarzan is more “relevant” to today’s youth. Seventeenth-century pirates invaded an imagined 19th century Missouri island because—so we are told—Tom Sawyer isn’t “relevant” to today’s youth. Buzz and Nemo and Woody have invaded once-realistic parts of the Park because (you guessed it) they are more relevant to today’s youth…

    Last night, the spectre of the season was upon me as I watched a TV show about Halloween, and the “haunted houses” that spring up in communities all over the country. These are not your parents’ haunted houses. They are true fright-fests that generate millions of dollars a year collectively. Attendees of Knott’s Scary Farm know whereof I speak. These wickedly elaborate hell-holes are teeming with horrors from our deepest nightmares—chainsaw wielding ghouls, disemboweled corpses, amputations galore. Pepper’s Ghosts? Forget it. Those simplistic illusions from 150 years ago pale in comparison to the glistening entrails, dripping severed heads and moaning undead that abound in the modern haunted houses, to the absolute delight of audiences young and old.

    And yet…the same crowd that feels compelled to use “relevance” as a battering ram to force as much detrimental change on the Park as possible cling to the Haunted Mansion as one of the crowning achievements in the Park, third only, perhaps, behind Indy and Pirates.

    So, I guess I have a simple question: How “relevant” is the puppy-dog-tame Haunted Mansion to today’s youth, and why shouldn’t its interior be gutted in favor of upgrades that would mirror more closely what today’s youth find terrifying, horrifying and…well…“relevant?”
    sorry, but it sounds like you're an old curmudgeon that would rather not have any updated attractions, one which already closed, and really didn't even have much of a chance coming back in any form. The railings on the Treehouse were almost falling apart, Tom Sawyer Island had been left to rot for years on end, and the Subs were pretty much hung out to dry and never be used again. With the refurshiments/makeovers on those attractions, Disney made those area's attractive to guests, again. And they updated them with characters that more of today's guests would be familiar with.

    That's not to say that they didn't make some mistakes in those makeovers. But they also added features that weren't possible previously. I don't particularly care for the cartoon characters of Tarzan, and the animals, when the Jungle Cruise is closed by with much more realistic animals, and the breath coming out of that leopard would be much more interesting with a more realistic looking leopard. For Pirates Lair, the bone cage is a bigger blunder than the Pirates lair theme. The bone cage implies that it's really Pirates lair on CANIBAL ISLAND. I'd like an Imagineer in charge that to give me the good reason WHY that happened.

    Then your reasoning hops back over to your older complaint about Toonization of DL. Only you forgot to include the HMH makeover, this time. But then the NBX crew did make things relavent to the crowd that likes the gore. Even with Disney sanitizing that version for the family friendly crowds.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougeebear View Post
    The fan community is split into three parts: those bemoaning change, those who don't care one way or the other, and those who are change cheerleaders. Prior to Marty's letter though I don't recall widespread usage of the word "relevance" pertaining to Disney characters and the audience.

    As to the Haunt industry, you can't really compare blood-and-gore to classic atmosphere. Each has their place, much as the movies that inspired them. Psycho is a creepy film, while SAW is an edge-of-your-seat gore fest. Neither is really more relevant to today's audience than the other; both speak to segments of the population.

    As an example, look at the Hallowed Haunting Grounds. This haunt was open for many, many years until the owners went on to other things. But it was all atmospheric rather than gore. And there is a large conversation in the haunt community over atmosphere vs gore, how much gore is too much, etc. It all just depends on which audience you're trying to reach.
    First, lumping fans into those categories is really not listening to what individuals guests are saying, and not paying close attention to what the guests want. You cant accurately say that some guests oppose ALL changes, and other guests likes ALL changes. One guest might like most changes for one project and then oppose most changes on another project. And with a particular project, there are some changes that a guest might like all the was down to things the guest didn't like at all. SO DON'T just lump things together without giving specifics.

    I do agree with you that the HM is trying to create a different mood, a balance of spooky, coffins, ghosts and graves, with Humor. Tell me how often something like THAT happens today!!! NOT much at all - There are only two other things I can think of that miixed humor with those things - both of those born in the 60's, also: The Adams Family and The Munsters! OK, later on Beetleguise and Weekend and Bernies Tried, but none did it as well as what was done in the 60's.

    Some of the Disney Channel Movies have become more and more gruesome, and most I don't like. The HM did give into the gore a little with the ax wielding bride in the attic. Thankfully they balanced it off with a few goofing looking faces and saying a few phrases in a humorous way. They did keep the right balance, to keep it family friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by audrabolster View Post
    I personally feel the ride has already been cheapened and tried to be made "relevant" with the Haunted Mansion Holiday overlay.
    Except the makeover ISN'T a cheap makeover (except for the rotten treats at the end that "follow you home" )

    Quote Originally Posted by disneytim View Post
    I'd hardly call the Tarzan makeover a "dumbing-down" of the treehouse. Is was as much a cross-promotion of a recent Disney movie as the Swiss Family Robinson version was in its day. It's no more or less relevant than having a 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea attraction in Tomorrowland and numerous Davy Crockett references in Frontierland when Disneyland first opened. Even Sleeping Beauty Castle got its name to promote an upcoming animated film.
    I wouldn't call it a "dumbing down" of Tarzans Treehouse, either. It was just a cartoonization. And the cartoon leopard and cartoon ape, ape-man and cartoony lady just don't look good in a REAL Treehouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sambo View Post
    The word "relevance" is a keyword used by Disney execs to mean we're not making as much money off this as we want to.

    The word "relevance" is used by fans to illustrate the dumbing down of attractions or the mash-up of attractions and devices that bastardize an established Theme.

    Obviously those are not black-and-white, but they do frame how the word is used by whom for discussion purposes.
    That's a rather cynical way of looking at things. I would say, if it's not drawing the crowds, then it's not giving the public their money's worth, and something should be added to give them their money's worth, and more with Disney magic.

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