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  1. #31

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    But another big issue with the internal projection is that you need a translucent surface - the light hits the inside of the surface, but it needs to be seen from the outside. The translucent materials they use tend to make it very difficult to get enough contrast for it to be realistic. The problem would be somewhat mitigated in HM by the darkness, I believe, but it's still difficult to get that much clarity and contrast in an internal projection.
    Actually, since the Haunted Mansion's "Rehaunting" in WDW, Madame Leota utilizes the interior projection system (at least I'm fairly certain, please correct me if I'm wrong!). To stunning effect, too. She's very, very real looking. But you're right, it is difficult to achieve that strong contrast that comes with natural lighting. However, under the lighting conditions of the Seance circle it's incredibly effective.


    On the topic of the scrims, I believe that they were in place to "blur the focus" of the ghosts and scenery, suggesting a haziness that isn't of course actually in the room. I don't think they were so much implimented to be used as a screen for projections of fog, if that's what's being implied by whomever. They were just meant to throw off the focus of the figures by placing an out of focus object in front of them.

    For example, when you look out a screened-in window at a tree (or building, or car, or whatever) you're looking beyond the screen at the subject. Your eyes focus on the tree in the background, thereby causing a layer of "fuzz" in the foreground from the unfocused-on screen. Of course, you can choose to focus on the screen or ignore it because you know it's there.

    I think that's the trouble with fans like us. We know the scrims are there, so we see them easier. I imagine that another guest who was unaware wouldn't be so apt to focus in on them, being that they don't know there's anything to focus on. I could be wrong, but that might just be me. I doubt the Imagineers planned on anyone knowing how the trick was done back in the 1960's, as it seems to be that sort of supplementary illusion that enhances the scene and isn't the focus. "There's so much craziness going on in the graveyard, who would pay attention to the scrims? That's probably the least-interesting illusion in the whole attraction, who would care"?


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  2. #32

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    How about we ignore relevance and talk about interest. From my sporatic and infrequent visits, HM is quite popular still. Was the same able to be said about the old subs? I think DL has limited space to use and limited funds to build with and that you have to consider that at the end of the day the park needs to provide those $XXX ticket prices in entertainment. If a ride is still interesting to X amount of the daily attendance then it is probably something to keep around.

    Of course there has to be something said for legacy, WD and the place itself. While there are probably many who would like to see the park kept the way it was on opening day (or at least where the plans were finished by WD himself). But truly how long could that last and still be a viable business? It's hard to estimate but at some point you have to renovate and make it more popoular (relevant) to the audience of today.

    Should the HM be changed? Who am I to say? My lowly opinion is that DL should be kept authentic. Should pirates have been updated? No. Should Tarzan be included? No. Is Indy a great ride, does it fit the themeing and not stand out? Yes. Where do you draw the line? It's hard to say.

    I'd probably vote to keep DL as authentic and themed as possible, leave the older, truer rides as authentic as possible (does IASW need new boats and flume sections? Yes.. did it need Disney charaters? No) and put new, exploritory stuff in another park. There is quite a legacy to preseve at DL and it's sad to see history torn down or reomoved but I'd rather see the park stay in business.

  3. #33

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Wow... I read all three pages and managed to keep my dinner down! I deserve a gold star for that. There's several things I could address; Steve's main question, comments on Tom and Tarzan, or the whole projection effect commentary which seems to run parallel to everything else.

    To answer the initial question, HM has it's place specifically because of it's design. The various "gore fests" are designed specifically to be season, to give a cheap scare when the season is right. Many would argue this surge in Halloween festivities convinced Disney to decorate HalloweenTime and host various Trick or Treat events for the wee ones (a previously neglected market). The other issue is that many of these "gore fests" come with the same age restrictions their horror movie counterparts have. Universal, Magic Mountain, Knott's, all have specific disclaimers spelling out that this is specifically for an older audience; parents are warned that young ones are not encouraged to attend. HM was never designed to scare. It was designed to make the scary comical and ease the fear children have of things that go bump in the night. While it starts off creepy, by the time it's over it's a giant house party that encourages small children to sing along to the silliness of happy ghosts.

    Revalence has become the latest buzzword. In many respects it has replaced "synergy" as the word Disney uses to defend it's decisions to place more and more movies into the park. The irony is that Disney feels the need to defend it's decisions, instead of merely making them. Some would argue that the perception of defense comments on the merit of the change. Others see it as Disney attempting to keep a clean image while promoting a recognized brand under the guise of appealing to the masses. Revelant or not, if HM the movie had been a success we likely would have seen the changes that transformed Pirates. In some cases, due to the popularity of Nightmare, we see this pandering to the masses in the manifestation of HMH.

    Personally I don't think HM has lost it's touch. I don't think it requires a revelant rebirth. The only things I ever found creepy in that old house were the bending doors, and to this day that section creeps me out. It's a simple visual effect that has always bothered me. I think that Disney has attempted to appease some of the horror fans with the upgrades to the bride. Previously it was a dress that appeared to come to life. Now it is an apparition, wielding an ax, that has it's own portrait preshow of grooms that seem to have trouble keeping their heads. Not my style, but it appears to be a subtle way of making the HM more serious without terrifying the wee ones.
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  4. #34

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Now for a quick comment on Nemo, Tom, and Tarzan.

    I used to love the old subs because I could chose if I wanted to listen to the spiel, or simply ignore it and look at everything. I could imagine it was my sub, I was the captain and going where I wished. Each turn yielded a new discovery under the deep blue sea. Now it doesn't matter if I pay attention to the captain because I am greeted with a cartoon fish for most of my journey. I can try and squeeze it out, but around every corner I am reminded of the movie with another tie in. I can't even stand outside and appreciate the lagoon without the seagulls from Nemo staring back at me. I enjoy some of the effects. The angler fish is fun, and the mines are a treat. But I don't think the overt Nemo tie in was needed. Seeing him once, on the reef, cute reference. Chasing him around and reliving the movie... not so much. Silver lining... it brought back the subs.

    If you were to ask my 5 year old self what his favorite ride was (I used the word ride back then) I would have said Jungle Cruise. If you would have asked what was next on the list I would have grabbed your hand and led you to the treehouse. I could spend an hour in that tree lost in my own imagination. Some would question the decision to leave the tree empty, I loved it. When I was there it was my treehouse... I could imagine myself in each room, living the dream. I'd seen the movie, but that didn't matter. It wasn't the Swiss Treehouse, it was my treehouse. Tarzan changed that. From a strictly aesthetic perspective it is a tossup as to which I like more. I loved the water wheel, the movement and the intricate detail of the old Swiss. I enjoy the new entrance, I love the bridge and as a boy I would have enjoyed the play area in Tarzan. What isn't up for debate is the difference in experiences. Swiss let me imagine what I wanted. Tarzan rehashed a movie and force fed me a cartoon character at every turn. The only break I have from the constant Tarzan promotional displays are the walks between them. Even that solace is broken by the constant cries of a baby Tarzan or the constant growls of the leopard. Considering that I'd prefer the soft gurgle of water and soothing sounds of an organ any day. To me that is what the term "dumbing down" means. Instead of being allowed to imagine on my own, Disney felt the need to imagine everything for me. Instead of it being my own personal adventure I am presented with the one Disney wants me to see.

    As a kid I always played on Tom's Island. To this day I still refer to it as Tom's Island. I'll admit though, that even as a kid I often imagined I was exploring the caves for pirate treasure. Sadly, at a young age I didn't have Tom and Huck. I met them when I was a bit older. These days kids don't meet them until High School... or in some cases College. It wasn't a shock that it went from being Tom's Island to being Jack's Island. That was bound to happen. The nice thing is that the changes are outwardly acceptable. It is a pirate island, but it is done in a way that presents it as a pirate hideout of yesterday complete with buried treasure and shipwrecks. Unlike POC, the changes made to the island have very little reference to the movie, and will hopefully be in place long after the movie's popularity subsides. The silver lining to this is that kids are once again going to the island. The island is full of the laughter of playing kids and Disney has given the island the attention that I feel it truly deserved.

    In regards to the special effects commentary, I would welcome upgraded special effects provided the upgrades are in fact upgrades. Sometimes the simple tricks are not only better, but more reliable!
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  5. #35

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    A couple of comments.

    The internal-projection Leota was introduced in the 90s. It was scrapped and they went back to the old frontal-projection in October of 2001, for the simple reason that it did not look as good. Floating Leota did not debut until January of 2005. It retains the frontal-projection method. WDW's new floating Leota looks superficially similar to the DL one, but it is radically different. It's got an internal-projection system that is light years beyond the old, defunct DL one, and really looks good. Phantom Manor has the crappy old internal projection system and has never changed it.

    Data is correct that the Pepper's Ghost effect does not involve any kind of projection of any kind (beyond turning on and off the lights illuminating the actual figures, which are above and below you), and it is indeed just as three dimensional as you yourself as you appear in a reflection in a mirror. It is difficult for me to imagine how any kind of projection system could provide a more convincing ghostly effect.

  6. #36

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    PEPPER'S GHOST > finding nemo submarine projections


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  7. #37

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    PEPPER'S GHOST > finding nemo submarine projections
    Dead Horse... aisle 1.... Dead Horse... aisle 1... your thread is waiting!
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  8. #38

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Dead Horse... aisle 1.... Dead Horse... aisle 1... your thread is waiting!
    Bored much?


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  9. #39

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    Bored much?
    Just calling it like I see it, ahead of time I might add! I am pretty confident that the "pepper vs projection" argument will go round and round considering those who have chosen to participate.

    So in that vein let the pummeling begin...
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  10. #40

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Just calling it like I see it, ahead of time I might add! I am pretty confident that the "pepper vs projection" argument will go round and round considering those who have chosen to participate.

    So in that vein let the pummeling begin...
    Hey hey, I never suggested that one is intrinsically superior to the other. I merely presented my case as to why Pepper's Ghost gets the job done in the case of the HM ballroom. I have no more facts to offer, so unless MrLiver brings some more refutable claims to the table - - I doubt I'll be going "round and round" any further.


  11. #41

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Hey hey, I never suggested that one is intrinsically superior to the other. I merely presented my case as to why Pepper's Ghost gets the job done in the case of the HM ballroom. I have no more facts to offer, so unless MrLiver brings some more refutable claims to the table - - I doubt I'll be going "round and round" any further.
    just... one... more...
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  12. #42

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    just... one... more...
    I'm going to go all recursive here and suggest that using the dead horse smiley is itself...

  13. #43

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    I'm going to go all recursive here and suggest that using the dead horse smiley is itself...
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  14. #44

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Haunted Mansion is relevent because it's not trying to promote something. Until Disney starts production on a gore fest gross out movie, Haunted Mansion will stay the way it is. Since I don't think there are any horror movies in Disney's near future, HM is safe. It's still somthing kids and adults recognize.

    Kids don't know who Tom Sawyer is, or the Swiss Family Robinson is, or waht 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is, that's why those got changed.

  15. #45

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    Re: "Relevance" and the Haunted Mansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    And yet…the same crowd that feels compelled to use “relevance” as a battering ram to force as much detrimental change on the Park as possible cling to the Haunted Mansion as one of the crowning achievements in the Park, third only, perhaps, behind Indy and Pirates.
    Simply put, some things stand the test of time better than others. Many of the original elements of Disneyland were from earlier eras, and were put in specifically because Walt Disney believed that they had a timeless quality to them. Some people may have a very limited subset of elements that are timeless to them, and mostly wish for very new things. The idea of a haunted house is a pretty timeless one that reaches deep into the human psyche, and Disneyland's version (along with its counterparts at other Disney parks) addresses a certain audience with a unique style and sufficient richness that it is always relevant to a great many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    So, I guess I have a simple question: How “relevant” is the puppy-dog-tame Haunted Mansion to today’s youth, and why shouldn’t its interior be gutted in favor of upgrades that would mirror more closely what today’s youth find terrifying, horrifying and…well…“relevant?”
    Anything that fills a unique niche can remain relevant, whether or not it follows the current trend. The Haunted Mansion has never been a mere fad, so it should not be subject to the flighty, fickle nature of fads that can come and go rather suddenly.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougeebear View Post
    The fan community is split into three parts: those bemoaning change, those who don't care one way or the other, and those who are change cheerleaders.
    I think that this is overly polarized. I may like and agree with some changes, and I may dislike and disagree with other changes. I imagine that a majority of Disneyland fans would not fit into any of your categories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Fortunately, I also know that there are some people there who've got their priorities straight and know that the relevance issue is blown way out of proportion.
    That's one way of looking at this issue, if relevance is defined very narrowly in terms of modern trends. However, my perspective, as described above, is that relevance is a broad notion and some things can always be relevant regardless of trends.

    Quote Originally Posted by audrabolster View Post
    I personally feel the ride has already been cheapened and tried to be made "relevant" with the Haunted Mansion Holiday overlay.
    I do, too. While I like The Nightmare Before Christmas and think that the overlay makes a pretty good attraction in itself, I'm always relieved to get the classic Haunted Mansion back. Although it makes sense to leave the overlay for as long as they do, in my opinion the attraction spends far too much time in this mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I don't think gutting the whole thing is the answer, but I would like to see more effects and technology added. The video projectors in Nemo provide a much better experience than the peppers ghosts effects.
    Aside from flexibility in producing the images, I don't see how video projection would be superior to partial reflections off glass for semi-transparent ghosts. Even today, video still looks like video, while the Pepper's ghost effect provides a different aesthetic and is inherently superior in terms of depth and resolution. Designers should simply use whatever technique is most appropriate for each effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    How are the pepper's ghosts effects 3d and the nemo projections 2d? Both are being projected onto a 2D surface.
    The Pepper's ghost effects are reflections of fully 3D objects that form virtual images that appear to be behind the glass. Each of your eyes sees a slightly different angle which gives you unaided stereoscopic (autostereoscopic) depth perception. The resolution is also only limited by the smoothness of the glass, and as implemented in this case is practically limitless as far as your eyes are concerned. The video projections in Nemo are merely 2D reflections and are much more limited in resolution and overall definition. They may use far more advanced technology, but that doesn't make them better for the Haunted Mansion.

    In general, people seem to be very impressed by high technology these days, but all that really matters is what you end up seeing. By the way, one of my other hobbies is amateur astronomy, and I can assure you that a very simple type of homemade telescope with a tube made of cardboard (Sonotube) can absolutely blow a high-tech computerized telescope of the same cost out of the water in terms of image quality and resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    They both use light being reflected off of glass. I'm not an expert in the projection technology, but since the concepts are fairly similar I would assume there are few limitations in making this work. I'm sure that Imagineering will eventually get an effect in there that they can be proud of.
    In order to accomplish what I believe you're suggesting, WDI would have to develop an extremely advanced form of holography. Such an achievement would be unprecedented as well as extremely costly in such an application (particularly because of the required size of the lenticular sheet, if that's what they'd use). It's not going to happen for many years, and I guarantee that the result will at best come close to that of Pepper's ghost.

    I could try to explain the physics behind all of this, but it could get quite involved and people would fall asleep. Perhaps the most intuitive way to describe the issues involved would be to ask: how would WDI generate an autostereoscopic (3D with no special glasses) image that actually makes use of the Pepper's ghost effect? That's right, forget about replacing Pepper's ghost for the moment and try to imagine being able to project an autostereoscopic image onto glass. They couldn't use a 2D LCD or DLP projector--it would have to be a "volumetric display" like we see in some sci-fi movies and video games, except this would need to be a REAL one, not just a flat image of one like in movies. Needless to say, such a display would be revolutionary in a much broader sense than just theme park attractions. That would be nice, of course, but it's far easier and more practical to either use Pepper's ghost with actual objects or make everybody wear 3D glasses to control what each eye sees (a big compromise in many ways).

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