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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey
    I'd bet that if this was a Fantasyland ride nobody would think twice about the Nemo theme.
    I agree, the Nemo theme is inappropriate for Tomorrowland, but we've got to realize that nothing in Tomorrowland is futuristic anymore. Disney tried to get rid of the Futuristic theme a long time ago when they gave us Tomorrowland 1998 ("the future that never was" theme) ..That theme wasnt meant to be futuristic.. it was supposed to be fantastic and sci-fi ...nevermind the fact it didnt necessarily all work out as Disney had hoped... but still...

    Would all of you complain if they "moved" the Subs to Fantasyland like they did the Matterhorn years ago? I wouldn't, actually I think it would be a little wise... Subs arent a groundbreaking thing anymore.. theyre common knowledge... People arent going to immediately think of the future when they see the subs working again... and when they see Nemo swimming by them, theyre definately not going to think Future... Maybe the subs should be moved to Fantasyland...

    Yes?
    No?
    First, just because because Disney is afraid of the future, especially concerning the subs (Chicken of the Sea?), doesn't mean that the Subs aren't futuristic. Again, think back to SeaCastle in Epcot's Horizons. Considering that over 90% of the world's oceans are unexplored, they're perhaps the most futuristic thing around. Add to that the notion that planets currently beyond our reach could be completely covered with water, and you have endless possibilites that are far more original and captivating than the cliched space future.

    And you can't ignore the fact that the "tomorrow that never was" is inherently depressing and uninspiring. Classic Tomorrowland, which thrived for about 20 years. People usually consider the beginning of the end to be somewhere between tearing out ATIS for the non-Tomorrow Star Tours and the closure of America Sings with no replacement. The real lesson to learn is not that the theme was bad in any way, but as with BTMRR and the Tom Sawyer rafts, where maintenance is concerned, a stitch in time saves nine. (Which is in NO way an endorsement for Stitch in Anaheim, btw.)

    I would definitely complain if Disney copped out and turned a futuristic achievement and added it to Fantasyland. Why take a unique underwater environment and waste it on another Fantasyland dark ride? didn't Pooh teach us the folly of that kind of thinking?
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    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

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  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    And you can't ignore the fact that the "tomorrow that never was" is inherently depressing and uninspiring.
    The implementation was poor, but I disagree that the "tomorrow that never was" (TTNW) is inherently depressing and uninspiring. TTNW can be a tribute to man's imagination and optimism about the future. Mixed with a little actual futurism, it could be quite the exciting theme, properly done.

    To be honest, I'm not sure what Tomorrowland should look like other than some variation on TTNW. I certainly don't think that Disney's original vision for it would is still possible to achieve.

    As for Nemo, I say let's give it a chance. I actually thought the movie was quite good and showing the diversity of life under the sea (currents, reefs, sewage dumping, etc.). It didn't hit you over the head with knowledge, but it was there.

  3. #48

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    Okay, just for illustrative purposes... who has ever thumbed through Imaagineering designs? I'm going to guess most people here. So, imagine getting the Disney Imagineering artwork for Disney's America and seeing how immersive, how well themed and exctiting it all looked. To know that the project was never built is depressing and uninspiring enough. Then, walk into DCA and see how so many good ideas were unused or misused, how a really fantastic idea was turned into a mediocre-at-best park.

    And that's just a themepark. DCA is just a bland and frustrating reminder of the park that never was. TL 98 is a FUTURE that never was. Its whole concept is nostalgia for something that never happened! It's a land devoted to "coulda, woulda, shoulda." It's a reminder that people of the past did something fundamentally wrong, and the real future is something too awful to think about. Give up now, the worst is yet to come.

    And to beef up the point, the whole place was covered in dark colors and rusty-looking paint schemes. It was Waterworld without the actual water ride, whose inactive lagoon helped contribute to the bleakness of the land, as well as the lifeless PM tracks.

    Clearly, most people did not want to spend much time in NoTomorrowland. Instead, people want to see the future that could be.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
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    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

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  4. #49

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    I disagree that the TTNW theme was depressing. I've seen some of the concept at for it and from that art the land looked interesting, exciting, immersive, and impressive. The only reason the whole fiasco ended up being depressing now was because it wasnt given the proper budgets and wasnt carried through properly.

    I'm not saying NemoSubs should be in Fantasyland, but seeing as everybody agrees that Nemo isnt necessarily the most futuristic concept, it would probably make more sense to have Nemo in Fantasyland (although Fantasyland is really more dated European fantasy tales). And as for the future element of the subs, sure the subs are still a powerful force in future underwater exploration, but people are so familiar with the idea of subs and seeing photos and whatnot of them that they arent immediately gonig to think of the future when they see them at Disneyland. When the subs debuted, they were striking and very futuristic... But nowadays, seeing some yellow subs floating casually by in the SubLagoon wont be something thats going to immediately yell out "TOMORROW" or "FUTURE" ...

    Nevertheless, I cant wait for the subs to return...
    And I think that trying to keep Tomorrowland a futuristic look on the world isn't going to happen and everybody should have known that when Star Tours came in 1987.

  5. #50

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    I haven't heard anything about this "unoffcial green-light" business, and I work in an area of the business that everything eventually matriculates thru.

    However I have heard that we should expect that Space Mountain v2 should be opening in Q4 (rather than Q1). Which is cool.
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  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey
    I disagree that the TTNW theme was depressing. I've seen some of the concept at for it and from that art the land looked interesting, exciting, immersive, and impressive. The only reason the whole fiasco ended up being depressing now was because it wasnt given the proper budgets and wasnt carried through properly.

    I'm not saying NemoSubs should be in Fantasyland, but seeing as everybody agrees that Nemo isnt necessarily the most futuristic concept, it would probably make more sense to have Nemo in Fantasyland (although Fantasyland is really more dated European fantasy tales). And as for the future element of the subs, sure the subs are still a powerful force in future underwater exploration, but people are so familiar with the idea of subs and seeing photos and whatnot of them that they arent immediately gonig to think of the future when they see them at Disneyland. When the subs debuted, they were striking and very futuristic... But nowadays, seeing some yellow subs floating casually by in the SubLagoon wont be something thats going to immediately yell out "TOMORROW" or "FUTURE" ...

    Nevertheless, I cant wait for the subs to return...
    And I think that trying to keep Tomorrowland a futuristic look on the world isn't going to happen and everybody should have known that when Star Tours came in 1987.
    Right... let's give up on Tomorrowland being futuristic. Let's join the TL 98 team in fearing and despising tomorrow... woo-hoo. Let's root for a more and more inferior park every year... If Walt Disney wanted his park guests to do one thing, it was to not just accept mediocrity, but to cherish it and bow down in thanks for it.

    IF Nemo has to be a ride at all (which history will probably prove it should not), the best place for it would be an Australia pavilion at Epcot's World Showcase, or as an ambassador on the Living Seas Sea Cabs. Maybe the weak ToonTown can be redefined once again, seeing as how it isn't one of the original lands, and no one besides the hardcore would ever know that ToonTown would for some reason include Gadget but not Nemo... But, just as some movies don't need to be cheapened by sequels, some movies don't need to be exploited with rides.

    Want to communicate that the Subs are futuristic? Make futuristic show scenes. Want to make it look more futuristic before you even go on the ride? Update the queue. Change the rockwork waterfall with some steel and chrome, add some high-tech towers to the rocks where the live mermaids used to sit, add some lights, fins, and gadgets to the sub exteriors... Relative to Nemo, that's a quick, easy, and inexpensive fix, and it maintains the integrity of the theme of Tomorrowland as lively and full of possibilities.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

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  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    Right... let's give up on Tomorrowland being futuristic. Let's join the TL 98 team in fearing and despising tomorrow... woo-hoo. Let's root for a more and more inferior park every year... If Walt Disney wanted his park guests to do one thing, it was to not just accept mediocrity, but to cherish it and bow down in thanks for it....

    Want to communicate that the Subs are futuristic? Make futuristic show scenes. Want to make it look more futuristic before you even go on the ride? Update the queue. Change the rockwork waterfall with some steel and chrome, add some high-tech towers to the rocks where the live mermaids used to sit, add some lights, fins, and gadgets to the sub exteriors... Relative to Nemo, that's a quick, easy, and inexpensive fix, and it maintains the integrity of the theme of Tomorrowland as lively and full of possibilities.
    What sort of futuristic show scenes? Cities under the water? Hi-tech towers, lights, fins and gadgets? What is futuristic about that? How is that so much different from the Tomorrow-That-Never-Was?

    It is easy to say, "let's keep Tomorrowland futuristic," but it is much more difficult to that in an entertaining way. Space travel is now more about robots than manned space. Even the International Space Station isn't very romantic. You could do a Mission to Mars ... but that has been done and that's about as future as you can get with regard to space.

    House of the Future? I doubt it ... it look more like Innoventions.

    In any case, TTNW wasn't about fearing and despising the future as you insist, but romanticizing man's imagination about the future.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Importance
    What sort of futuristic show scenes? Cities under the water? Hi-tech towers, lights, fins and gadgets? What is futuristic about that? How is that so much different from the Tomorrow-That-Never-Was?

    It is easy to say, "let's keep Tomorrowland futuristic," but it is much more difficult to that in an entertaining way. Space travel is now more about robots than manned space. Even the International Space Station isn't very romantic. You could do a Mission to Mars ... but that has been done and that's about as future as you can get with regard to space.

    House of the Future? I doubt it ... it look more like Innoventions.

    In any case, TTNW wasn't about fearing and despising the future as you insist, but romanticizing man's imagination about the future.
    Maybe that was someone's intent on paper way back when, but art isn't about intent, it's about the communicated message, and if the message isn't communicated properly, it's no longer the message.

    As said earlier, the very idea of "the future that never was" is nostalgia for something that never even existed. Nothing romantic about that. It was extremely anti-urban and anti-future. It emulated the awful Discoveryland concept and told guests in no uncertain terms that it didn't want to be Tomorrowland anymore. It asked the guests, "Can't we just have some cabbage growing and call THAT the future please?" What about the Rocket Rods was futuristic? The Horseless Carriage was invented before the turn of the 20th Century. If that's your one spankin' new attraction designed to romanticise man's imagination about the future, you failed.

    Tomorrowland 98 was Denialland. Kiddie, I'm gonna bore your little brain and you don't have to worry about the bomb no more. If we don't think about the future, it'll just go away. Now don't we all feel better?

    Again, there's a huge difference between the future that never was and the future that could be. The first is pessimism, the second optimism. One certainly doesn't feel optimistic about a future covered in green and rust. Like everything else in 98, the colors just screamed "We've given up." Think of the flashbacks to the Gotham World's Fair in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. That was New Tomorrowland. TL 98 was the Fair in present time, dillapidated, dark, gloomy, abandoned.

    An Imagineer who hasn't had the creativity beaten out of him can come up with ten different ways to make "the future that we can build together" entertaining, optimistic, and futuristic. They just can't leave it in the hands of someone like Eisner, whose only ambition toward the future is his golden parachute.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey_D
    I can't wait to see what they come up with for the planned "wet for dry" effect
    ...Take a look at Tokyo Disneyseas 20K ride - it's a wet-for-dry ride. All accounts say it's really well done - even the seaweed sways in the 'current' !
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  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    Maybe that was someone's intent on paper way back when, but art isn't about intent, it's about the communicated message, and if the message isn't communicated properly, it's no longer the message.
    I'm not defending the execution, but the concept. And, yes, we are taking about intent here. Obviously, DL wasn't investing enough money and effort in making the park successful in 98, whether it was TL or elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    As said earlier, the very idea of "the future that never was" is nostalgia for something that never even existed. Nothing romantic about that. It was extremely anti-urban and anti-future. It emulated the awful Discoveryland concept and told guests in no uncertain terms that it didn't want to be Tomorrowland anymore. It asked the guests, "Can't we just have some cabbage growing and call THAT the future please?" What about the Rocket Rods was futuristic? The Horseless Carriage was invented before the turn of the 20th Century. If that's your one spankin' new attraction designed to romanticise man's imagination about the future, you failed.
    Discoveryland is hardly an awful concept. And you're not romanticizing something that never existed, but something that still exists and is key to DL: man's imagination and hope for the future. The TTNW isn't about pessimism, it isn't dystopic, but about man's optimism.
    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    Tomorrowland 98 was Denialland. Kiddie, I'm gonna bore your little brain and you don't have to worry about the bomb no more. If we don't think about the future, it'll just go away. Now don't we all feel better?
    And, what, TL should be about the increasing potential for terrorism in the future?
    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    Again, there's a huge difference between the future that never was and the future that could be. The first is pessimism, the second optimism. One certainly doesn't feel optimistic about a future covered in green and rust. Like everything else in 98, the colors just screamed "We've given up." Think of the flashbacks to the Gotham World's Fair in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. That was New Tomorrowland. TL 98 was the Fair in present time, dillapidated, dark, gloomy, abandoned.
    Not necessarily, in a bright, clean sunlit park they can invoke age, use and a certain dignity, that these items have some historic weight to them. Done well, it can provide more immersive environment than some cleaned-up future where everything is always spic and span. One of the things that people admired about the first Star Wars movie (now called Episode IV: A New Hope), was that, unlike many previous science fiction films, the spaceships and star ports looked a little beat-up, a little used, they weren't spic-and-span, white-walled glowing places. They looked "real."
    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    An Imagineer who hasn't had the creativity beaten out of him can come up with ten different ways to make "the future that we can build together" entertaining, optimistic, and futuristic. They just can't leave it in the hands of someone like Eisner, whose only ambition toward the future is his golden parachute.
    I'm not really sure. I certainly haven't heard of too many good ideas. The future is one where computing, networks and communication are becoming increasingly important. How do you futurize that in a predictable way? Not to mention that the Disney company opposes many of the innovations such a future could bring in its aggressive copyright legislative stance. Where are a long time from when the future of transportation looks like the monorail and people mover. Turn Autopia into electric gas/hybrids, maybe? Give them computerized navigation systems? The future of medicine and other genetic engineer efforts is going to be extremely controversial, not sure DL should touch that with a ten-foot pole.

    It is easy to say that TL can return to its original mission. It is much harder to execute it well.

  11. #56

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    Thanks to SaveDisney for this timely quote. It might just go into a few other threads too.

    "Think beyond your lifetime, if you want to do something truly great. Make a fifty-year master plan. A fifty-year master plan will change how you look at the opportunities in the present."
    --- Walt Disney

    The future that never was failed as a concept because it did nothing to think beyond our lifetime. It deliberately chose to be Yesterland. Instead of Tomorrowland 2055, they chose Jules Verne's Tomorrowland 1955.

    Regardless of execution, the concept did not attract visitors. Disneyland attendance dropped 4% for 1998, and another 2% for 1999. They weren't judging the execution, because they hadn't seen it. They were judging the concept.

    People may admire dirty ships in a film about A Long Time Ago, but they don't want to walk into a broken and dirty tomorrow in a themepark. put simply, TL 98 was straight out of a Christmas Carol. Tomorrowland was double-teamed by the Ghost of Futures Past and the Ghost of Future Futures, and Tomorrowland itself became the Ghost of Futures Present.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Importance
    Space travel is now more about robots than manned space.
    ..........ROBOTS! Everyone likes robots, right? That can be the new theme! Yaaaaay!

    *Cough* sorry. Not to break up such an interesting discussion. Personally, I've always liked the Discoveryland theme. True, it can be interpreted badly, but...it's a nicely creative and fantastical alternative to the classic code of sci-fi. It's fairly visually potent, as well. The rustic-ness does create some powerfully unique visuals.

    On the other hand, I'm biased because I haven't been to Disneyland since Tomorrowland was alive and crowded, with all of its rides working and all of the paint fresh. Also, science fiction has become increasingly dingy and "realistic", meaning that the "bright shiny future" becomes something somewhat creative and unique again as well. In the 1960s, it wouldn't be. But now it would be. Thus my new motto, neither supporting Discoveryland or Tomorrowland: "Change is Good".

    I'm just so charmingly wishy-washy, aren't I?

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    An Imagineer who hasn't had the creativity beaten out of him can come up with ten different ways to make "the future that we can build together" entertaining, optimistic, and futuristic. They just can't leave it in the hands of someone like Eisner, whose only ambition toward the future is his golden parachute.
    It can be done, and has been done several times.... DL Tomorrowland, WDW Tomorrowland, Epcot Futuree World, not to mention several world's fairs.

    The probelm is that every time it has been done, it has not aged well. "The future that we can build together" grows stale within 5 or 10 years, and needs ripped out and redone from the ground up every 15-20 years.

    Disney is sick of that. They can't be profitable redoing lands and parks that often. They want themes, lands, and attractions with real staying power. That means fantasy, fiction, fun rather than reality, optimistic, edutainment.

  14. #59

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    Vulcania in TDS is the most popular area in the park. Nuff said. It also features two of the most popular rides in the park. Discoveryland is GO !
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  15. #60

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    Maybe Disney isn't thinking far enough into the future. Maybe that's why they have to keep updating tomorrowland. We can stay away from spacey stuff because Space mountain already provides that aspect. How about Journey to the Center of the earth (we couldnt really fit it anywhere....). How about time travel: We get so far into the future we can go back to the past and do... stuff? How about micro computers that are set in our brains to make us... no wait.... um.. I know! umm.. no... dang, it's... OK. How about we make some big tubes with vacums that can suck us around tomorrowland at high speeds. How about cars that move us around at such high speeds that we can get from New York to California in 1 min. (depending on traffic). The thought here is that if they think really waky about things that arent really concieveable at our time that they really wouldnt need to update for 20+ years because even then we wouldn't be all that close to the technology.
    (insert funny comment here)

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