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  1. #106

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by brenden View Post
    How many times did you watch Disney cartoons as a kid? Even in the 80s, I'm sure you watched Disney cartoons before the ones that were released when you were a child. Those films have a stronger tie with kids, even kids of today, than IASW.
    I will agree with you there, but I read Shakespeare for fun Even given the fact that the classic animation of the past does hold a stronger emotional tie for the kids of today than iasw does, I don't see how the classically animated, fictional characters belong in a ride that caricatures the reality of children around the world in a message of getting along. Ariel and Pinocchio simply don't fit in. Saying that "oh, Alice is from England" and "Ariel lives under the sea" is really stretching things. That is forcing. It's shoe-horning things in.

    I don't think IASW is a horrible attraction that needs this addition, but adding characters, "some of which are decades older than the attraction itself," create a stronger tie with the attraction. My point is ESPECIALLY true for the kids of today, who are so fixated with attractions that hold some kind of significance with their TVs and computers.
    I know you don't think that, I never have. And you are doing a great job as devils advocate here, but I understand where Disney is coming from... I simply don't see these changes really adding any sort of relevance to the ride. It is still the same song that annoys so many, and it will only take one or two ride-throughs before kids are over it and stop wanting to sit through "that song" again. We actually saw statements to that effect in the official sticky review thread even.


    I think I can agree there. Although I think some kids, myself included, love characters and personalities, songs and other aspects of the films aside from the morals.
    Oh this is absolutely true. Though in classical animated Disney films, often times the morals and values are put in the songs because children remember songs so much easier. The song creates the emotional tie to the scene which makes remembering it easier. I've definitely got my playlist of favorite Disney songs from favorite Disney movies on my iPod and work computer.

    The older animated classics are still relevant to today's children. How many little girls do you see running around the parks dressed up as Snow White or Cinderella? And, like you said, Pixar is also prevalent, but the older animation is still around and something long standing for multiple generations. I'm sure in 20 years, people will still be watching Sleeping Beauty, The Lion King, etc. and Toy Story is bound to be shuffled in that mix of "classic" films sooner or later.
    Oh absolutely... I would argue that because they are timeless, relevance really doesn't even matter any more. The lessons and principals apply regardless of what year it is. But what is the reason that little girls run around dressed as the princess of their choice? If you ask little girls why they like a particular princess, it is usually some aspect of their personality. Their a really good friend, they read, she helps others, etc. It goes back to the core values of the film rather than a specific character for the sake of a character.

    Oh crap, I just created a great argument to put the characters into the ride! Haha... that happens from time to time. The values that many of these characters espouse and stand for are those that the ride stands for as well. However, I don't think this is a strong enough reason to put them in.

    I go year round and you're right, there are plenty of times when several rides are walk ons. But, I can walk by the Haunted Mansion and see a 30 minute wait. Same with Pirates. Same with Indy, which gets up to what - over 90 minutes? IASW has been closed for over a year? At least 9 months, I think, and going to the parks regularly for over 5 years as an adult, I can confidently say IASW has always pretty much been a walk on regardless of time of day - except when the parks are exceptionally busy during the summer or holidays where everything is a huge wait.
    Well, all I can say to that then is that I have walked past iasw during the exceptions, because I always have to wait till it's late at night to get on without a wait. I guess that's timing.

    I don't think adding the characters muddles the message. The song is still the same.
    Actually the song is not the same. They have added counterpoint harmonies to the iasw song from each of the characters film in the areas in which they appear. In other words, as you pass Alice, you will hear a lilting, light version blended in with the iasw song of music from Alice in Wonderland. This is used to great effect in the Electrical Parade as the floats pass and the harmony and melody alter slightly to match the subject material of the current float. This does alter the message and further detaches you from the core of the ride, the music, where the emotional drive lies.

    Though I must admit I am curious to hear the new ride audio in a quality recording. I hope that they did this part very well as it takes an immense amount of talent to blend musical cues together in this manner.

    Again, the word relevance pops up - kids going through the ride see the characters and probably ingest it better than random dolls they've never had any experience with outside of the ride itself.
    How does seeing Pinocchio help a child understand the message of the attraction better? Or does Pinocchio distract from the attraction by bringing up the memories and emtional connections to that film, that character? Instead of being focused on the vignettes of children playing and singing, albeit in different language, but essentially all the same, kids are now looking for the next character and thinking about that aspect. For an adult, it is easy to ignore these characters and see beyond that, but I don't think it is so easy for kids to not do this. And even if kids don't immediately "get" the message of the ride, the principals and values do sink in and are in there.

    I really didn't see the relevance of genocide and racial slaughter compared to the way companies operate. Besides, genocide isn't something prevalent in every country around the world, but I guess that's besides the point?
    Yes it was. I apologize for that.

    In any case, it might not be right, but it's a business decision. If you want to control how a business conducts itself, I suggest becoming a shareholder, get on the board of directors, etc. Regardless of what's right and wrong, the company is going to do what it sees fit for its best interests, and for the sake of this thread, unfortunately, that is making money.
    I agree completely with you here. They are going to do what they think is right... but we're not debating their right to do this. Well, I'm not anyway, some have before. I'm merely debating the rather vague notion of is it right or wrong to do it regardless of having the authority to do it. I will never deny that they have the right to make any change they want to make, for any reason they choose to declare. But I will debate if those decisions are good or not.

    Disney is held to a higher standard because that's something they've set themselves. That's not the problem, they definitely deliver - at least in my opinion - I can't go to another theme park and not think about how Disney does it. But, like I said in an earlier post - times change.
    Absolutely they set themselves this high standard. And you are right, many many times they do deliver. But not always. When the Swiss Family Robinson treehouse was removed, many interactive elements were removed and it became a simple walk-and-glance through as opposed to walk through and become a part of the environment. It went from real, to museum, complete with name plates at each exhibit to explain what it is. I think this was a decision that was not up to their high standards. The quality of it is great, but the actual experience has sufferred.

    [quote]Monsters, Inc. probably bumped attendance when it debuted[quote]

    And that's my point... that bump faded, and rather quickly. In the long run, the expense to build Monsters, Inc. did not return. It did nothing to aid the park except in the very very short term. Curiosity attendance is not what they should be trying to get, but long term, repeat attendance. I think the characters being added to iasw will end up being like Monsters, Inc. and Pirates... curiosities.

    [...]but it's not like DCA has an outstanding attendance rate anyway. And really, DCA is it's own entity with its own direction and irrelevant to the values and principles of Disneyland, right?
    No... it is relevant to Disneyland because they are both Disney parks. One built to the high standard that we expect of Disney, one built to another standard, much lower. The values and principles that guide Disneyland should guide DCA as well, but they didn't. Every single project should be undertaken with the utmost respect for theme and to the highest standards of quality possible. Is this expensive, yes... but that is the legacy that Disney has given itself. This is why no one cared about Disney animation over the last few years... because they were no longer at that high standard. If the parks decide to not hold themselves to the high standard 100% of the time... they too will suffer as people realize they can get the same thing cheaper elsewhere. This is why it is important to always keep that standard in mind and at the core of any decision.

    Pirates already has one of the highest capacities in the park - 2k an hour? It's already popular, but like you said, most of the time it's a walk on. What I understand is that there was a massively popular film franchise that dominated box offices and DVD sales for over 5 years. Of course Disneyland wanted to hop on that gravy train - it probably made them plenty of money to add Pirates merchandise, tie in the movies with the rides and retheme the island. Would you consider 5 years short term? I don't know if I would, I can see it either way, but regardless, I'm sure there weren't a lot of complaints about the cash it brought in.
    No, there were no complaints from the bean counters about the money it brought in... but 5 years is less than 10% of the age of the park. Five years is very short term. Long term is decades. Long term is building something that will bring people in consistently for decades. This idea of corporate franchising is destructive to the creativity that made Disney the household name that it is. It destroys the ability of WDI to think outside the box and give us a new experience. It's great for the rest of the company as it ties the brands together, and in some cases, it can work for the parks... but 99% of the time, franchising will hurt the parks.

    But look at a lot of the changes in Disneyland - are they long term? Yes. But do they have a long term effect? No. Is the treehouse any more popular now than it was as it was Swiss Family? Probably not. But for that brief period of time, when it was close to Tarzan or "new" - I'm sure it was.
    So was that brief time worth all the money spent to change it? Probably not. If something is really not popular any more and simply not working... take a page from Walt himself... pull it out and make something new! Removing Captain Eo for HISTA was a great choice... HISTA now needs to be removed desperately. Plussing it won't save it at this point.


    [...]but it might let kids relate to the ride itself more, by identifying it with these classic films, thus boosting attendance of the park itself and more importantly the ride.
    But does identifying the ride with movies kids are familiar with really help the ride? No. Because that is not the purpose of the ride. (Again, I'm not arguing if it helps the bottom line of Disney or not, just the fact that it doesn't help the ride. Increasing ride attendance is not always right if it destroys the core point of the ride.)

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  2. #107

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    I will agree with you there, but I read Shakespeare for fun Even given the fact that the classic animation of the past does hold a stronger emotional tie for the kids of today than iasw does, I don't see how the classically animated, fictional characters belong in a ride that caricatures the reality of children around the world in a message of getting along. Ariel and Pinocchio simply don't fit in. Saying that "oh, Alice is from England" and "Ariel lives under the sea" is really stretching things. That is forcing. It's shoe-horning things in.

    I know you don't think that, I never have. And you are doing a great job as devils advocate here, but I understand where Disney is coming from... I simply don't see these changes really adding any sort of relevance to the ride. It is still the same song that annoys so many, and it will only take one or two ride-throughs before kids are over it and stop wanting to sit through "that song" again. We actually saw statements to that effect in the official sticky review thread even.




    Oh this is absolutely true. Though in classical animated Disney films, often times the morals and values are put in the songs because children remember songs so much easier. The song creates the emotional tie to the scene which makes remembering it easier. I've definitely got my playlist of favorite Disney songs from favorite Disney movies on my iPod and work computer.



    Oh absolutely... I would argue that because they are timeless, relevance really doesn't even matter any more. The lessons and principals apply regardless of what year it is. But what is the reason that little girls run around dressed as the princess of their choice? If you ask little girls why they like a particular princess, it is usually some aspect of their personality. Their a really good friend, they read, she helps others, etc. It goes back to the core values of the film rather than a specific character for the sake of a character.

    Oh crap, I just created a great argument to put the characters into the ride! Haha... that happens from time to time. The values that many of these characters espouse and stand for are those that the ride stands for as well. However, I don't think this is a strong enough reason to put them in.



    Well, all I can say to that then is that I have walked past iasw during the exceptions, because I always have to wait till it's late at night to get on without a wait. I guess that's timing.



    Actually the song is not the same. They have added counterpoint harmonies to the iasw song from each of the characters film in the areas in which they appear. In other words, as you pass Alice, you will hear a lilting, light version blended in with the iasw song of music from Alice in Wonderland. This is used to great effect in the Electrical Parade as the floats pass and the harmony and melody alter slightly to match the subject material of the current float. This does alter the message and further detaches you from the core of the ride, the music, where the emotional drive lies.

    Though I must admit I am curious to hear the new ride audio in a quality recording. I hope that they did this part very well as it takes an immense amount of talent to blend musical cues together in this manner.



    How does seeing Pinocchio help a child understand the message of the attraction better? Or does Pinocchio distract from the attraction by bringing up the memories and emtional connections to that film, that character? Instead of being focused on the vignettes of children playing and singing, albeit in different language, but essentially all the same, kids are now looking for the next character and thinking about that aspect. For an adult, it is easy to ignore these characters and see beyond that, but I don't think it is so easy for kids to not do this. And even if kids don't immediately "get" the message of the ride, the principals and values do sink in and are in there.



    Yes it was. I apologize for that.



    I agree completely with you here. They are going to do what they think is right... but we're not debating their right to do this. Well, I'm not anyway, some have before. I'm merely debating the rather vague notion of is it right or wrong to do it regardless of having the authority to do it. I will never deny that they have the right to make any change they want to make, for any reason they choose to declare. But I will debate if those decisions are good or not.



    Absolutely they set themselves this high standard. And you are right, many many times they do deliver. But not always. When the Swiss Family Robinson treehouse was removed, many interactive elements were removed and it became a simple walk-and-glance through as opposed to walk through and become a part of the environment. It went from real, to museum, complete with name plates at each exhibit to explain what it is. I think this was a decision that was not up to their high standards. The quality of it is great, but the actual experience has sufferred.

    Monsters, Inc. probably bumped attendance when it debuted

    And that's my point... that bump faded, and rather quickly. In the long run, the expense to build Monsters, Inc. did not return. It did nothing to aid the park except in the very very short term. Curiosity attendance is not what they should be trying to get, but long term, repeat attendance. I think the characters being added to iasw will end up being like Monsters, Inc. and Pirates... curiosities.



    No... it is relevant to Disneyland because they are both Disney parks. One built to the high standard that we expect of Disney, one built to another standard, much lower. The values and principles that guide Disneyland should guide DCA as well, but they didn't. Every single project should be undertaken with the utmost respect for theme and to the highest standards of quality possible. Is this expensive, yes... but that is the legacy that Disney has given itself. This is why no one cared about Disney animation over the last few years... because they were no longer at that high standard. If the parks decide to not hold themselves to the high standard 100% of the time... they too will suffer as people realize they can get the same thing cheaper elsewhere. This is why it is important to always keep that standard in mind and at the core of any decision.



    No, there were no complaints from the bean counters about the money it brought in... but 5 years is less than 10% of the age of the park. Five years is very short term. Long term is decades. Long term is building something that will bring people in consistently for decades. This idea of corporate franchising is destructive to the creativity that made Disney the household name that it is. It destroys the ability of WDI to think outside the box and give us a new experience. It's great for the rest of the company as it ties the brands together, and in some cases, it can work for the parks... but 99% of the time, franchising will hurt the parks.



    So was that brief time worth all the money spent to change it? Probably not. If something is really not popular any more and simply not working... take a page from Walt himself... pull it out and make something new! Removing Captain Eo for HISTA was a great choice... HISTA now needs to be removed desperately. Plussing it won't save it at this point.




    But does identifying the ride with movies kids are familiar with really help the ride? No. Because that is not the purpose of the ride. (Again, I'm not arguing if it helps the bottom line of Disney or not, just the fact that it doesn't help the ride. Increasing ride attendance is not always right if it destroys the core point of the ride.)



    From a business standpoint, I see why it was done - there's no doubt they're exploiting the characters for the sake of reinforcing the brands they've created. And although it's a decision I don't think was necessary, I don't think Disney deserves the amount of haterade they're being served.

    As much as I love a good debate, I think we've reached an exhausted stalemate. :P I am glad to see I was able to communicate my points, and while we may not agree on some things over others, at least you seem reasonable. This was fun. I'm sure most of the flack for updating this attraction will blow over and fade into obscurity, like most complaints about changes to existing attractions.

  3. #108

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by brenden View Post
    It's not on anyone's list - adult or child. You're right, it's not cool, it's not thrilling, it doesn't entertain today's youth.

    Adding characters and marketing to children seems to work with other attractions (Nemo, Buzz, Toy Story, POTC, etc.) seemed to work, though. I really don't think their time or efforts will be wasted. It looks like a cheap, quick fix to refresh a ride that's lost it's touch with today's audience.

    Cheap, quick fix for a ride that actually HASN'T lost touch with today's audience. The characters aren't needed. I know many many children that loved it as it was. And with anything good, you'll like it as a kid, maybe despise it as a teen, but find that you really do love it as an adult because it's something GOOD.

    The holiday version helps the original become that much more popular throughout the year because guests will learn that it's only available for a certain amount of time.

    Sure, it was a walk-on a lot of the time, but look at that capacity. Star Tours is always a walk-on, but it's still popular and loved.

    Haunted Mansion is popular during the regular calendar year because that too has been plussed recently. Changes that benefit the attraction rather than take away. Walt Disney World's Haunted Mansion too received a plus and made it better than ever.

    It's a Small World isn't *my* favorite attraction but I have a love for it that can't really be explained... especially for an attraction that I see every so often.

    Adding characters works because it was pre-programmed to work. It was a sure thing. But just because that works doesn't mean creating original attractions that are amazing doesn't work either.

    What kid or teen cares about the classic Twilight Zone? But now because of a great attraction, they are exposed to it and now has an ever lasting impression on them.

    I really honestly don't see how adding Disney Characters makes Small World BETTER. It might make it more temporarily fun, but once something isn't new anymore, it's no longer a novelty and becomes the same old hat once again. Small World is just one of those attractions that will be loved for generations. It's one of the few attractions that SHOULD be kept the same, with the exception of cleaning it up and making it look nicer.


    the reality is this:
    the masses will go on and enjoy seeing the characters. Disney execs pat themselves on the back and think they did a swell job. But they'll soon learn that the success was only temporary but it doesn't matter. They're already too busy finding another classic attraction to muck up.


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  4. #109

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?


    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  5. #110

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by brenden View Post
    From a business standpoint, I see why it was done - there's no doubt they're exploiting the characters for the sake of reinforcing the brands they've created. And although it's a decision I don't think was necessary, I don't think Disney deserves the amount of haterade they're being served.

    As much as I love a good debate, I think we've reached an exhausted stalemate. :P I am glad to see I was able to communicate my points, and while we may not agree on some things over others, at least you seem reasonable. This was fun. I'm sure most of the flack for updating this attraction will blow over and fade into obscurity, like most complaints about changes to existing attractions.
    Well said brenden. And thanks for a good debate. T'was fun indeed to bandy back and forth.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  6. #111

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    I heard that goddamned "Disneyland is not a museum" quote on the news radio yesterday when talking about small world.

    I seriously wanted to reach through the radio and throttle whoever said that.

    9 times out of 10, WDI takes that quote to mean, "if we can change a ride to move more merchandise product, even though it doesn't fit, let's do it!"
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  7. #112

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by dizneyteen View Post
    Exactly. I could totally see Eddie Murphy replacing the old caretaker in the graveyard had the movie been successful.
    I was thinking Madam Leota. Imagine the marketing capabilities.

  8. #113

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmeralineDragon View Post
    No, see, they need a park for each decade, so each of us can visit the Disneyland of our childhood, which as we all know is the perfect Disneyland.

    See now here's a person who thinks on their toes! PERFECT! Let me know when late eighties-mid nineties DL is ready for opening day and I'll be there! Get this person on as a chair at WDI! Right stat now!


    I am also in support of your Duckland (Woo-Oooh!) becoming an addition to Afternoon Adventures, but this will have to be adjacent to TT.

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chernabog View Post
    9 times out of 10, WDI takes that quote to mean, "if we can change a ride to move more merchandise product, even though it doesn't fit, let's do it!"
    In all fairness, WDI isn't calling the shots. Back in the good old WED days it was WED in charge of things. Walt made the financing work and pretty much everything followed WED's desires. Times have changed, now marketing and finance are in charge and WDI is bent to their will, often times I'm willing to bet, to their (WDI's) utter despair.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by WendyBird View Post
    See now here's a person who thinks on their toes! PERFECT! Let me know when late eighties-mid nineties DL is ready for opening day and I'll be there! Get this person on as a chair at WDI! Right stat now!
    Hey, that's the park I'll be going to (while not technically of my childhood, it's the park of my fondest memories), so I'll see you there!
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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Pirates of the Caribbean. The Haunted Mansion. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. The Disneyland Railroad. The monorail. Autopia. Space Mountain. The Matterhorn*. The Jungle Cruise*. Mine Train thru Nature's Wonderland*. Shall I continue?

    But this thread is not about the validity of movie tie-ins. This thread is about the same age-old straw man that's been refuted beyond belief...the idea that being opposed to a given change makes one opposed to ALL change.


    * These were inspired by pre-existing franchises, but not based on them. There is nothing about the attractions that is/was specific to the franchises.
    I suppose reference was a poor choice in words, but each attraction you said as at least a fleeting connection to a film or sample of film genre, be it Disney or otherwise. When POTC opened, Disney was quick to make an association with Peter Pan and the then-in-production Blackbeard's Ghost. The Matterhorn was partially inspired by Third Man on the Mountain, The Jungle Cruise was partially inspired by the African Queen, almost all of Adventureland was at first inspired by Disney's True-Life Adventure films. The Haunted Mansion, if you read Jason Surrell's books, was very much inspired by the classic horror fiilms of Universal, including most specifically the Phantom of the Opera. Big Thunder Mountain can be seen as an evolution of Disney's Zorro series, put through the paces of WRE, and finally a stand-alone. The Disneyland railroad itself may be an original, but the Grand Canyon diorama just happened to coincide with a 1958 Disney film. Sometimes connections are loose, but if you try hard enough you can make connections to just about everything. In the case of Disneyland, many, if not most, of these connections were intentional.

    The point I was trying to make was also not about the evils of movie tie-ins, but of the necessity of negotiating with marketable tie-ins to achieve other ends. No business is willing to lay down a significant amount of money unless they are going to see a return. In terms of pay-one-price admission parks, that money is made primarily with merchandise. With the exception of Barbossa on the Wicked Wench, I have seen no additions that have degraded the point of any attraction. The characters add a new degree to the attraction, but as I said before, the theme and idea of this attraction are not lost, it is still as prevalent today as it always has been.
    Change is never made for change's sake, as much as people like to believe it is. This change was a compromise, pure and simple; to me that seems so obvious.
    Last edited by DoppelV; 02-06-2009 at 10:46 AM.
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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?


  13. #118

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones View Post

    I remember reading this piece when you wrote it. Great examples.


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  14. #119

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    I rode the new iasw. I didn't really like it.

    It was a walk-on -- so much for the additions bringing in the crowds.

    The weather is bad so maybe that's why. But I doubt it.

    My prediction is that the additions will have absolutely no impact on increasing the numbers for this ride, not even temporarily.

  15. #120

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    Re: "Disneyland will never be completed." - Why the resistance to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    I rode the new iasw. I didn't really like it.

    It was a walk-on -- so much for the additions bringing in the crowds.

    The weather is bad so maybe that's why. But I doubt it.

    My prediction is that the additions will have absolutely no impact on increasing the numbers for this ride, not even temporarily.


    You rode on it Thursday correct? The day prior to the official grand opening? And it was an AP Preview?


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