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  1. #136

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by dizzneeland View Post
    Hello all,

    So I've been reading the DCA Tracker thread and some of the comments about Walt Disney not approving of the 'idea of' Paradise Pier(Ferris Wheel, Carnny games, etc). It made me think: When Walt built Disneyland, nothing like it existed. These days theme parks are common place in vacation planning, and Disneyland is part of public concious whether or not the individual has actually stepped foot on property.

    Basically, a lot has changed in the theme park world since then. We now have SeaWorld, Busch Gardens, Universal. So to me it actually makes since for Disney to pull the rug out from everyone and go back to the basics that intially gave Walt the inspiration to create the theme park. And reinvent what may not conceivably work to those that don't normally picture Ferris Wheels and carrny games when they think of Disney.

    I see it as in the same vein of Disney Studios calling Disneyland 'Walt's Folly' but since it was done right, the audience caught on and continued to come back to see Walt's Folly again and again and that opened the Studio's eyes, making believers out of them.

    Now, I will agree the original execution of DCA was very sub-par when placed within stones throw of Disneyland proper. And in the original carnation, there wan't much to base my(this topic's) argument on. And now with the changes and upgrades being made, and the time, sweat, money and man power being invested into improving not only the image but overall quality of DCA, I think Walt would approve of the idea of Paradise Pier. Only he would've done it right the first time....
    Also people seem to forget that Disneyland was packed with carny rides from the beginning. The Skyway wasnt exactly a themed attraction nor was it innovative for its time, neither were rides like Dumbo, Carousel and teacups.

    I think Walt wanted a quality unique place to be built,so he built Disneyland. He created aplace with a variety of experiences, which included theme attractions and off the shelf carny rides to balance the place out. I dont think he 'hated' carny rides as much as people think he did, the proof is in the pudding as he himself added them into his park.

    With that said,I wish Disney would add some Dumbo Circus and Pleasure Island (from Pinocchio) elements to Paradise Pier. I think it would add more "Disney" and also be sorta cool

  2. #137

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Well what's the answer to the question? Who gets to decide what is financially responsible for the company?

    It's sort of like asking who you want to do your taxes. Would you want CPA or some random guy you find off the street?

    It's pretty obvious huh?
    You're right, I wouldn't want you to do my taxes.

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  3. #138

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Wheweeee...I think I'm gonna have to say toodeloo to this particular thread. It was fun while it lasted, folks!

    MrLiver, I will try my utmost to talk only about facts and history for you...you know, the kinds of things I'm sure all your posts are about. You're right - it's not appropriate to bring up personal opinions on discussion boards. However, I will leave out facts and history about things like backstage areas and behind-the-scenes techniques, which I obviously know nothing about, and which I obviously should know nothing about. Be on the lookout for my next amazing thread: "Did you know that Toontown opened in 1993?"
    Last edited by Datameister; 04-11-2009 at 08:47 AM.


  4. #139

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Be on the lookout for my next amazing thread: "Did you know that Toontown opened in 1993?"
    I can't wait! And I'm sure Liver can't, either! Be sure to include the bit where Disney make the perfect decision to close the Motorboat Cruise so Toon Town could get all the funds it needed and deserved, afterall the Motorboats were a dead attraction from the 50s. Nobody liked it anyway.

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  5. #140

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    You're right, I wouldn't want you to do my taxes.

    I wouldn't want me to do my taxes either.

    But you still haven't answered the question. My guess is you won't now either.

    So the fact is that as far as anyone knows, the company is making sound decisions based on financial responsibility.

    Which pretty much invalidates any argument the fans can make for WHY Paradise Pier or DCA should have been different.

  6. #141

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    MrLiver, I will try my utmost to talk only about facts and history for you...you know, the kinds of things I'm sure all your posts are about. You're right - it's not appropriate to bring up personal opinions on discussion boards.
    I get the impression you never had to write an essay in school.

    Personal opinions are fine, but you have to back them up with facts and figures and reasoned arguments.

    Saying "Walt Disney wouldn't have built Paradise Pier because it goes against what Disney stands for" is not a reasoned argument at all.

  7. #142

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    I can't wait! And I'm sure Liver can't, either! Be sure to include the bit where Disney make the perfect decision to close the Motorboat Cruise so Toon Town could get all the funds it needed and deserved, afterall the Motorboats were a dead attraction from the 50s. Nobody liked it anyway.
    So which attraction would you have closed to open up Toontown?

  8. #143

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I wouldn't want me to do my taxes either.

    But you still haven't answered the question. My guess is you won't now either.
    What question? This one?:
    Like I said, Disney could give out a million dollars to every guest at the gate and make a LOT of people REALLY happy, but how long would the company survive if they did that?
    That question is stupid. Of course Disney would go bankrupt if they were handing out millions of dollars to guests. But that was never what I suggested they do to begin with -- that was your sophomoric counter-argument.

    The point is that Disney used to push the envelope and give guests the truly premium experience they pay for. You may still think they do this, but if they were, Disney wouldn't be relying so heavily on Annual Passholders and local discounts like the 2fer to keep attendance numbers up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    So the fact is that as far as anyone knows, the company is making sound decisions based on financial responsibility.
    Thanks for confirming that Disney's primary goal is making money (financial responsibility).

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  9. #144

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    What question? This one?:
    No, the one where I asked who gets to decide what is financially responsible. The company or the internet.

    The point is that Disney used to push the envelope and give guests the truly premium experience they pay for. You may still think they do this, but if they were, Disney wouldn't be relying so heavily on Annual Passholders and local discounts like the 2fer to keep attendance numbers up.
    Disney can't offer the type of experiences you are suggesting because the market will no longer support it. That's exactly WHY Disney is relying so much on annual passholders and 2fer discounts to keep the park full - people are not willing to pay a premium price.

    Thanks for confirming that Disney's primary goal is making money (financial responsibility).
    Their primary goal is making people happy. They must remain financially responsible while doing it.

  10. #145

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Disney can't offer the type of experiences you are suggesting because the market will no longer support it. That's exactly WHY Disney is relying so much on annual passholders and 2fer discounts to keep the park full - people are not willing to pay a premium price.
    How is Tokyo Disney doing these days?

    Your argument sounds like something Walt Disney might have heard back when pitching Disneyland. "People won't care." "People won't come" "The market won't support it". "


    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver
    Their primary goal is making people happy. They must remain financially responsible while doing it.
    Those glasses look good on you, Liver. The rose color is nice! Did Pressler give 'em to you for Christmas?

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  11. #146

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    How is Tokyo Disney doing these days?
    How is Disneyland Paris doing?

  12. #147

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Imag1neer View Post
    Also people seem to forget that Disneyland was packed with carny rides from the beginning. The Skyway wasnt exactly a themed attraction nor was it innovative for its time, neither were rides like Dumbo, Carousel and teacups.

    I think Walt wanted a quality unique place to be built,so he built Disneyland. He created aplace with a variety of experiences, which included theme attractions and off the shelf carny rides to balance the place out. I dont think he 'hated' carny rides as much as people think he did, the proof is in the pudding as he himself added them into his park.

    With that said,I wish Disney would add some Dumbo Circus and Pleasure Island (from Pinocchio) elements to Paradise Pier. I think it would add more "Disney" and also be sorta cool
    I believe the Fantasyland dark rides were off-the-shelf as well, but Disney added their own artwork which made them a high quality then what had come before. It makes sense that they can buy a ride system and then enhance it to make it the experience that they want us to have.
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  13. #148

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I don't think anyone would deny that Disneyland has more to do and see than DCA, but DCA was never meant to stand on it's own and still compare to Disneyland. DCA was meant to expand the offerings of the resort AS A WHOLE and convince folks to spend an extra day out of their vacation to experience the expanded offerings.

    You can defend that DCA was never meant to stand on its own all you like. What you seem to ignore is that it was never a good game plan to begin with. A park like DCA may do okay in WDW where people are already spending a full week there. But at Disneyland, that adjacent park better have more to chew on.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I know why DCA wasn't as successful, and it's exactly what Disney has said it was: the lack of characters in DCA. DCA was built as an alternative to Disneyland, a place where the Disney characters would be relegated to the side, and folks wouldn't have to endure the childish fairy tale atmosphere of Disneyland (you know some people really hate how fake Disney is). Instead of getting the more sophisticated clientele they had wanted to attract, they got the same families from Disneyland coming over and complaining that there weren't enough rides for the stroller set and there were not enough characters. The park was just too plain adult for their typical family audience.

    But saying there are not enough rides, or saying that there isn't enough to do, is completely different from saying that the rides they did build are not entertaining enough. A perfect example of this is the Sun Wheel, which may appear to be just a boring Ferris Wheel, but almost always had a good 30 minute (and sometimes 60 minute) wait time. The Sun Wheel has always been popular and I don't think there has been any serious question as to whether it would stay in the park.

    Once again you are confusing expansion with rejection of the previous product.

    No, you are the one that is very much confused. DCA was both:

    -not enough rides
    -rides built didn't have the disney quality
    -price point same as Disneyland


    This is not because the park lacked character. Epcot has done just fine for decades without character. Lack of character is just the quickest reason that most families could think of. They're not theme park educated enough to say that the attractions weren't as good as a Pirates or Haunted Mansion, or that they were flat out swindled out of their money.

    And to only have ONE attraction that was fantasyland-esque is a bad idea too. And look at the pier options. Aside from the coaster, it's a problem of been there done that, even if the atmosphere is better than the county fair.




    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    So what you're saying is, that instead of being like Walt Disney and trying to build something that is different and new, they should just continue to be like Walt Disney and build the same thing they already have?

    Let's not forget that the Simpsons also made fun of Disneyland as a whole countless more times than they have DCA or Euro Disney. So Walt Disney DID build a product that the Simpsons would eventually lampoon.


    Different and new? That's totally what I expect from Disney! But it's the quality that I expect even more. DCA did not deliver the overall quality. From the tacky entry to a tacky paradise pier with a city of Anaheim backdrop. Lack of quality was quite apparent in the new park. What they didn't lack were restaurants and shops.

    And simpsons parodies Disneyland because they love the place. One of their best episodes was Itchy and Scratchy Land. For DCA, they flat out said that the prison was more fun than DCA.




    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    So the giant ferris wheel failed and they are going to replace it with a giant ferris wheel? Right.

    Was Fantasyland a failure too? Is that why it had to be redone? What about Tomorrowland? Was it a failure twice?

    It sounds to me as though you are holding DCA to a double standard.

    Alright, we all know that I never liked the very idea of a Paradise Pier land, but now that they did, I will be the first to say that out of all the problems with the pier, the Sun Wheel was not one of them.

    And you ask questions as if you don't even know. Fantasyland was improved. They kept it more or less the same but gave it the Disney face lift 30 years after the place opened. And back in 1955, it was a smash success. That's not failure. That's plussing.

    Opening WDW's Magic Kingdom a decade earlier with the same ugly Fantasyland is somewhat of a failure.

    Tomorrowland was a failure multiple times. It was a failure at the start since they ran out of time to do it right. Then Tomorrowland was perfect before 1998. All it needed was a facelift to keep things fresh, but they made things worse. And now it's in need of a major overhaul. Tomorrowland is definitely Disneyland's little DCA right now. But it's just funny because Tomorrowland 1998 and DCA were executed under the same leadership.

    Coincidence?





    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I am all for making it look nicer and adding more attractions. That's exactly what they have done with Disneyland in the past 50 years. Saying that Paradise Pier is too big to be replaced is ridiculous though. If Paradise Pier were really dragging down the image of the park, they could have eventually replaced the whole area with Carsland and left a big chunk of real estate for future expansion. They decided to keep it almost entirely as is though, despite the calls from fans on the internet declaring it antithesis of a Disney park experience.

    Money. Taking down Paradise Pier would be too costly of a venture and ultimately not worth that expense. You should know this. That's your excuse for everything. Paradise Pier is built. It's one of DCA's largest lands and has a successful coaster and sun wheel and now a midway mania. To demolish it would be to REALLY admit defeat. Just rest assured that DCA's will be the only park with a Paradise Pier.

    They realize that Paradise Pier 2001 does not work. That is why they're attempting this disney Neutrogina facial cream. It's not going to heal the scars, but will make them easier on the eyes.



    in closing,

    What made Disneyland so popular and successful is that it always over delivered. You went in expecting a carnival, but what you got was great entertainment, real architecture, beautiful landscaping, solid attractions for all ages that inspire, thrill, and educate.

    DCA did not even deliver. They UNDER delivered. They didn't face the same obstacles that Walt Disney had in the 50s. They had the capital and the designers to make something amazing. They chose not to.

    Again, if Disney knew that it was a half day park, they should have charged half day admission. Perhaps that was the biggest failure right there. DCA might have been a lot more accepted overall if people paid half and got a lot more out of it.


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  14. #149

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Disneyland was a physical expression of the showmanship of Walt Disney, the values of the company he ran, and creativity of the people who worked for him.

    DCA was a physical expression of the showmanship of Michael Eisner, the values of the company he ran, and creativity of the people who worked for him.
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  15. #150

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    How is Disneyland Paris doing?
    Euro Disneyland, from the start, was Eisner's Folly. Euro Disney's failure is not because Disney overspent on it, but because Eisner's love affair with Paris caused him to ignore common sense and research just so he could build a fancy new park in France.

    The United States and Japan have built-in audiences for Disney. Paris did not, and Disneyland Paris continues to struggle because of that.

    From James B. Stewart's DisneyWar:

    But nothing excited Eisner's architectural ambitions more than plans for an entirely new theme park in Europe. [ . . . ] Disney had evaluated nearly twelve thousand potential sites in Europe, and had narrowed the choices to three: two along beaches on the Mediterranean near Barcelona, Spain, and the other in a large beet field east of Paris, near the town of Marne-la-Vallee. Eisner and wells were both immediately enthusiastic. [ . . . ] There was much to recommend the Spanish sites, starting with the weather, but Eisner wanted France from the start. To him, France represented the pinnacle of Western culture, the antithesis of American mass culture that, ironically, Disney itself represented. Since his brief foray to Paris as an aspiring playwright, Paris had been where Eisner wanted to make his mark. Two camps within Disney quickly formed: the traditional parks people, led by [Dick] Nunis; and Eisner, who was backed by Gary Wilson and [Frank] Wells. Eisner argued that the weather in Paris wasn't much worse than Tokyo, and the Japanese were willing to wait in lines for for hours in subfreezing temperatures. Paris had a much larger population than Barcelona, was a year-round tourist destination, and was more of a transportation hub. Nunis argued that Spain had a far more cooperative government, was offering better locations near beaches, and was already a major tourist destination, Europe's equivalent of California or Florida. (pg 81)

    ----

    Whatever the cost, Euro Disney did succeed in opening at precisely 9:00 A.M. on April 22, 1992. All the architects were on hand along with stars Candice Bergen, Eddie Murphy, and Melanie Griffith. Farmers blockaded the roads. French president Francois Mitterrand declind to attend, dismissing the expensive new investment with Gallic indifference as "pas ma tasse de the" ("just not my cup of tea"), a comment that infuriated Eisner.

    For all Disney's efforts, it was clear from early reactions that Europeans would not be easily won over by Disney's American version of make-believe. [ . . . ] The opening day attendance was just six thousand people, far short of the projected ten thousand. Although attendance through December reached seven million, it fell off drastically during the cold weather. Unlike the Japanese, the French were not willing to wait in lines in the cold. Nice as the hotels were, few wanted to stay so far from Paris. (pg 128)

    ----

    Nearly all of the assumptions Disney has made in the early projections and used to determine the budget had been wildly off base. Europeans' vacation habits were dramatically different from Americans', something that might have been anticipated had Disney relied on European data rather than projecting results from Disney World onto a European setting. For one thing, the average middle-class European had far more vacation time than did Americans. But this meant that they spent far less per day to make ends meet. They were not willing to stay in expensive hotels like the ones Disney has built, nor did they eat, drink, attend shows, or buy souvenirs at a rate anywhere near that of Americans. (pg 129)
    .


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