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  1. #61

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by dizzneeland View Post
    with the inclusion of TSMM, TLM, WoC, and the design overlay taking place, the off the shelf but needed rides balance with the true to heart Disney attractions.
    WoC should be amazing. I have few doubts about that, and I look forward to it. And as I've said, the direction they seem to be taking with the new facades is a great one. Really feels much more like a Disney park.

    But TSMM and TLM both have significant problems. TSMM has a very confused backstory, at best - you're shrunk down in a set of toy carnival games that's sitting in Andy's room, which is in a building in a full-sized pier. I believe the most appropriate word is...WAT? As for TLM, there are basically two ways to interpret it:

    1. It's an attraction in which we are really going and experiencing Ariel's adventures with her. We truly travel under the sea and meet the characters for real. Sounds great...except that has nothing to do with California, and very little to do with a realistic boardwalk theme.

    2. It's just an old dark ride on a pier. We're not really going to see Ariel - we're going to ride a ride that shows an imitation of her. Thematically perfect for Paradise Pier! But very, very unimpressive as entertainment.


  2. #62

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    WoC should be amazing. I have few doubts about that, and I look forward to it. And as I've said, the direction they seem to be taking with the new facades is a great one. Really feels much more like a Disney park.

    But TSMM and TLM both have significant problems. TSMM has a very confused backstory, at best - you're shrunk down in a set of toy carnival games that's sitting in Andy's room, which is in a building in a full-sized pier. I believe the most appropriate word is...WAT? As for TLM, there are basically two ways to interpret it:

    1. It's an attraction in which we are really going and experiencing Ariel's adventures with her. We truly travel under the sea and meet the characters for real. Sounds great...except that has nothing to do with California, and very little to do with a realistic boardwalk theme.

    2. It's just an old dark ride on a pier. We're not really going to see Ariel - we're going to ride a ride that shows an imitation of her. Thematically perfect for Paradise Pier! But very, very unimpressive as entertainment.

    C'mon Data. I expect more out of you. Are you really gonna argue 'thematically perfect' with a company who has Finding Nemo in Tomorrowland?? Why?? Cause Nemo was made on computers? At this point I say if we're getting fleshed out attractions, then we may as well just enjoy them. At least they're putting in a beer garden so we could just drink til the theme makes sense. TSMM is similar to Buzz in 'thematically perfect' as well. It doesn't quite work, but it's over-look-able???
    Last edited by dizzneeland; 04-09-2009 at 01:32 AM.

  3. #63

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by dizzneeland View Post
    At least they're putting in a beer garden so we could just drink til the theme makes sense.
    I can see it now...
    Your going to need A LOT of drinks!!!


  4. #64

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by TIS17 View Post
    I can see it now...
    Your going to need A LOT of drinks!!!


    And a 2nd mortgage to pay for em.

    But seriously folks, I'd like to thank our sponsers and remind you to have your cats & dogs spayed or neutered.
    Last edited by dizzneeland; 04-09-2009 at 01:26 AM.

  5. #65

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    Cool Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Let's just say that Walt is dead, and we have to keep living his dream because he wouldn't stop dreaming. If Walt weren't dead, I can guarantee DCA (if he would even decide to build it), and Disneyland for that matter would look much, much more exciting and original.

  6. #66

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by dizzneeland View Post
    C'mon Data. I expect more out of you. Are you really gonna argue 'thematically perfect' with a company who has Finding Nemo in Tomorrowland?? Why?? Cause Nemo was made on computers? At this point I say if we're getting fleshed out attractions, then we may as well just enjoy them. [snip] TSMM is similar to Buzz in 'thematically perfect' as well. It doesn't quite work, but it's over-look-able???
    Heck no! FNSV and Buzz are among of the worst thematic violations that have been committed in Disneyland for some time. That doesn't mean I'll accept other mistakes...that means I'll be more frustrated with Disney for giving up on standards it used to (mostly) respect, and that it should always respect! If you're gonna make it a theme park, make it a freakin' theme park.

    It is I who expect more from you than the argument, "Well, they've made worse."


  7. #67

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    I think PP could definitely use a little more theming to make it more boardwalkish, and at least they seem like they're on the right track with that. But I like PP! I like the fact Screamin' has onboard music, I like the fusion of a midway game and a franchise based ride, I like the ferris wheel, heck, I even like the Maliboomer. I guess I don't mind paying the Disney premium because there's much more to DCA that I also enjoy aside from PP.

    Asking what Walt would do seems kind of fruitless, no? I mean, yeah, it's fun to speculate, but using "Walt would (or wouldn't) _____" in an argument is ridiculous. For all we know, he could have kept it as a parking lot or started expanding Disneyland in the other direction. :P

  8. #68

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by brenden View Post
    Asking what Walt would do seems kind of fruitless, no? I mean, yeah, it's fun to speculate, but using "Walt would (or wouldn't) _____" in an argument is ridiculous. For all we know, he could have kept it as a parking lot or started expanding Disneyland in the other direction. :P
    Quite true, to a certain extent. We can be pretty sure about some of the things he wouldn't have done, but we'll never be 100% positive, and ultimately, the man was quite capable of being wrong anyway. Justification for Disney's actions should come primarily from logic, from past precedent that works, from listening correctly to the public, and from the sense of boundless and well-exercised imagination that characterizes much of the company's best output. If something Walt said or did supports that - and it often does - all the better. =)


  9. #69

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by dizzneeland View Post
    I hope you realize Disney is investing 1.2 billion of those funds correcting the problem prior management created.

    And I'm sure you realize that Disney wouldn't need to be investing 1.2billion right now if they achieved their goals from the get-go. They would only have needed to add attractions here and there over the years. I mean seriously, DCA probably had more attempts to gain an audience that fizzled than any other park.

    Sure, Disneyland had stuff that fizzled too, but the difference is that Disneyland was always successful and not trying to find its audience.

    According to Mr. Liver though, this was aaaaall part of the plan.


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  10. #70

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Quite true, to a certain extent. We can be pretty sure about some of the things he wouldn't have done, but we'll never be 100% positive, and ultimately, the man was quite capable of being wrong anyway. Justification for Disney's actions should come primarily from logic, from past precedent that works, from listening correctly to the public, and from the sense of boundless and well-exercised imagination that characterizes much of the company's best output. If something Walt said or did supports that - and it often does - all the better. =)
    Well said.

  11. #71

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    According to Mr. Liver though, this was aaaaall part of the plan.
    I think our dear MrLiver might very well go into cardiac arrest if he heard some of the people at Disney say some of the things I've heard them say.


  12. #72

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    And I'm sure you realize that Disney wouldn't need to be investing 1.2billion right now if they achieved their goals from the get-go. They would only have needed to add attractions here and there over the years. I mean seriously, DCA probably had more attempts to gain an audience that fizzled than any other park.

    Sure, Disneyland had stuff that fizzled too, but the difference is that Disneyland was always successful and not trying to find its audience.
    Deja vu?? Oh wait, I've already said what you just said in my first post.

  13. #73

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    I think TSMM shows a glimmer of what people are saying is needed to make PP work. It has the nostalgia of the old midways, but it presents it in a unique way. Now you can certainly question the use of Toy Story and the arguably overreliance on video screens, but the base idea is certainly a step in melding the nostalgic feel of an old boardwalk with something new that the entire family can enjoy.

    If this was done for some of the other attractions, then I think you would have a Disney quality land. For instance, what if the Ferris wheel was the actually the start of another experience (the cars move around a track that seems looks like a Ferris wheel from the outside, then go inside for some sort of broader experience). If that was done then you get the nostalgia like Main St., with attractions that are really recalling something else (a midway that is a ride through shooter). I think this would solve the attraction vs. ride problem that Data mentions.

  14. #74

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    WoC should be amazing. I have few doubts about that, and I look forward to it. And as I've said, the direction they seem to be taking with the new facades is a great one. Really feels much more like a Disney park.

    But TSMM and TLM both have significant problems. TSMM has a very confused backstory, at best - you're shrunk down in a set of toy carnival games that's sitting in Andy's room, which is in a building in a full-sized pier. I believe the most appropriate word is...WAT? As for TLM, there are basically two ways to interpret it:

    1. It's an attraction in which we are really going and experiencing Ariel's adventures with her. We truly travel under the sea and meet the characters for real. Sounds great...except that has nothing to do with California, and very little to do with a realistic boardwalk theme.

    2. It's just an old dark ride on a pier. We're not really going to see Ariel - we're going to ride a ride that shows an imitation of her. Thematically perfect for Paradise Pier! But very, very unimpressive as entertainment.
    1. the Andys room backstory really only applies to the Disneys Hollywood Studios version.
    2.I think they are trying to not focus on the California theme. It is after all one of the reasons the park failed in the first place.

  15. #75

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Heck no! FNSV and Buzz are among of the worst thematic violations that have been committed in Disneyland for some time. That doesn't mean I'll accept other mistakes...that means I'll be more frustrated with Disney for giving up on standards it used to (mostly) respect, and that it should always respect! If you're gonna make it a theme park, make it a freakin' theme park.

    It is I who expect more from you than the argument, "Well, they've made worse."

    My argument isn't they've made worse as much as it's this:

    With the complaints about not enough 'Disney' rides at DCA, and PP gets a major E ticket and a D ticket, and the response is, 'I don't like where they're putting it. A boardwalk wouldn't have a mermaid. There's no toys working as barkers on midways.' To be honest I've never seen a huge water show at a pier, but I guess everyone just overlooks that. The additions to PP are more thematically correct then Nemo and Buzz, which is why I brought those comparisons up.

    I think we all know the state Disney is in right now. It's like they just got out of prison and need to be redomesticated. With the way DCA, AK, and the NEMO Buzz misplacement worked out, there obviously was something missing in the pressler era. Now that the outlook at WDI has changed, and the suits are starting to invest a bit more, it isn't much longer that we're gonna have to ride this toxic wave. If there are a couple 'out of place' attractions, then lets hope they're immersive in themselves and at the least have the facades match the surrounding area.

    Anyone can argue that Disney should've done it right in the first place, and I agree with that, but that's such an old argument now. Dead horses don't have feeling, you're just hurting your foot. Disney is rebuilding a tarnished image. At least for now, with the work going on, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. If at the end of this overhaul, if DCA is still a crap shoot, then I'll lead the pack.

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