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  1. #106

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Very, very sadly true. Let's not forget, of course, that there are plenty of folks at Disney who do "get it." But they don't have nearly as much power or control as they should be given.


  2. #107

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    If you want the REAL experience, you can get it for a lot cheaper at the county fair.

    And that's the whole point. We go to Disney for something else. There's a lot more 'something else' left to create. But instead, we got DCA.
    We go to Disney for something else? Uh, I go to Disney to have fun and relax.

    I could spend the money to go to the county fair and ride a ferris wheel and a swing ride, but is it the same experience as DCA? NO! I am also paying for the service I get from the Disney Cast Members. I am also paying for the cleanliness of the park. I am also paying for the SAFE atmosphere I get.

    Your whole premise here is flawed because you see the argument as paying $69 dollars to ride a ferris wheel and paying $7 to ride the same ferris wheel somewhere else. That's not the argument at all. The argument is, am I getting a better OVERALL experience by spending that money at a Disney park and am I getting my monies worth and the answer, for a whole heck of a lot of people is, yes we are getting a better experience.

    For all intents and purposes Walt Disney built the same kind of carnival attractions at Disneyland in 1955 and it was amazingly successful. Why? Because he was offering an overall experience that was better than the competition. That's why you hear Walt focus so much on how the place would be clean and well kept up and a great place to take families.

    It's not about the rides at all.

  3. #108

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    And I'm sure you realize that Disney wouldn't need to be investing 1.2billion right now if they achieved their goals from the get-go.
    That too is a flawed argument. You think that Disney wouldn't have to invest any money in Disneyland if Walt had built it right in 1955?

    Of course they're investing money to expand DCA. They've spent money to expand Disneyland as well. There is really no difference.

    They would only have needed to add attractions here and there over the years.
    How many things in the park today are being removed? Golden Dreams?

    If there was really a problem with the carnival rides in Paradise Pier, they would be removing and replacing them no? Instead Disney is just giving them a good paint job and adding more detail to the land (just as they did with Fantasyland in 1983) and keeping the roster of attractions mostly intact.

    That certainly doesn't SOUND like something that desperately needs to be fixed.

  4. #109

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    I think our dear MrLiver might very well go into cardiac arrest if he heard some of the people at Disney say some of the things I've heard them say.
    You're talking about words, I'm talking about actions.

    Instead of continually focusing on what you think they should DO, why don't you actually come up with some reasoning as to why they do what they do.

    Folks on the internet are always so quick to dismiss what they don't like and what they don't think should happen, but not so quick in recognizing the huge attendance numbers and wait time for all these "mistakes."

    Disney does what they do because it works.

  5. #110

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Instead of continually focusing on what you think they should DO, why don't you actually come up with some reasoning as to why they do what they do.
    I understand why they do it. And their reasons are bad.

    Folks on the internet are always so quick to dismiss what they don't like and what they don't think should happen, but not so quick in recognizing the huge attendance numbers and wait time for all these "mistakes."
    And you are always so quick to dismiss the idea that it's possible to have many different levels of success. Disney has been successful. They could be a lot more successful - they could be making bigger profits, and making more people happier in the process. But you see happiness and profit as on/off, yes/no, 1/0 operations. Either you've got it, or you don't. And you see that Disney is, of course, making money, which in your mind means that they don't need to do anything different. But I, unlike you, am foolish enough to think that making a lot of money is not as attractive an option as making a lot a lot of money.

    And don't pretend you're above personal bias, MrLiver. By your own admission, you fall asleep on Pirates and think the Astro Orbitor has the same visual aesthetic as Space Mountain. You are every bit as biased as the rest of humanity.


  6. #111

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    I understand why they do it. And their reasons are bad.
    Making people happy is bad?

    And you are always so quick to dismiss the idea that it's possible to have many different levels of success. Disney has been successful. They could be a lot more successful - they could be making bigger profits, and making more people happier in the process.
    Since you really have no idea what makes them successful, I think it's pretty bold of you to claim that they could be MORE successful.

    But I, unlike you, am foolish enough to think that making a lot of money is not as attractive an option as making a lot a lot of money.
    No, what you are foolish enough to think is that Disney can do things the way you want and they could make more money. Every indication is that they cannot make money by continually doing things as if it was 1969 again. Disney has to change and adapt and it's something that you refuse to acknowledge.

    And don't pretend you're above personal bias, MrLiver. By your own admission, you fall asleep on Pirates and think the Astro Orbitor has the same visual aesthetic as Space Mountain. You are every bit as biased as the rest of humanity.
    It's not about personal bias. It's about acknowledging when your own personal biases are wrong, and when the general public believe something entirely different than you.

    You may not like Paradise Pier. You may have wanted to see something different, but that doesn't mean that the public as a whole think the same way. And Disney is in a far better position to know what the public wants than either you or I.

  7. #112

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Making people happy is bad?
    I thought the PowerPoint for DCA asked "If Six Flags can do it, why can't we?" not "How can we make the guests as happy as possible?"

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  8. #113

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    I thought the PowerPoint for DCA asked "If Six Flags can do it, why can't we?" not "How can we make the guests as happy as possible?"
    What do you mean by as happy as possible? Disney could make me pretty happy by giving me a million dollars, but you think they should give me a billion cause that would make me as happy as possible?

  9. #114

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    What do you mean by as happy as possible? Disney could make me pretty happy by giving me a million dollars, but you think they should give me a billion cause that would make me as happy as possible?
    Your comment ("Making people happy is bad?") implied that Disney's primary goal when creating a product is the enjoyment of their guest, which is about as naive as it comes.

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  10. #115

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Your comment ("Making people happy is bad?") implied that Disney's primary goal when creating a product is the enjoyment of their guest, which is about as naive as it comes.
    You really don't believe that do you?

    Really?

    Why do you even bother calling yourself a fan then? That's pretty sad.

  11. #116

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    You really don't believe that do you?

    Really?

    Why do you even bother calling yourself a fan then? That's pretty sad.
    Because like you've said numerous times on these boards, Disney is a business. Their primary goal is to make money and to keep the shareholders happy. Certainly, making guests happy is part of the equation, but I think it's naive to believe that is management's primary focus. All that really matters is the bottom line and profit margins.

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  12. #117

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Making people happy is bad?
    No...but making people happy is worse than making them happier if both are financially responsible options.

    Every indication is that they cannot make money by continually doing things as if it was 1969 again. Disney has to change and adapt and it's something that you refuse to acknowledge.
    No - by your logic, it should do things as if it were 1925. That's what Paradise Pier aspires to. On the contrary, what I've suggested is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The way to pull out the rug from under the competition is by moving forward in a really amazing way...
    What part of that is me refusing to acknowledge that Disney has to change and adapt? What I want is for them to move forward, away from the antiquated ways of the early 20th century! Your indictment is preposterous.

    Let me ask you this, MrLiver. In a perfect world, what kinds of discussions would happen on sites like MiceChat? Would anyone ever suggest anything other than what Disney is currently deciding to do? Feel free to PM me instead for the sake of avoiding too massive a derailment.


  13. #118

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    What part of that is me refusing to acknowledge that Disney has to change and adapt? What I want is for them to move forward, away from the antiquated ways of the early 20th century!
    But for Disney to truly adapt, move forward, and push the envelope would be living in the 60s. And that simply does not work in 2009. Creating a product that is groundbreaking and vastly superior to the competition is NOT a way to draw audiences and make money, apparently.

    Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Your indictment is preposterous.
    This is not atypical.

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  14. #119

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    I guess I'm naive. I believe that Disney's mission statement is to make people happy. I understand that a publically traded company’s responsibility is to make a return for their shareholders. However, they do that by providing something valuable to their customers. They also do this by following a strategy.

    Now I'm not going to say that everything that Disney does is right. I'm not even going to say that only Disney has enough information to decide what the best or most profitable course of action is. I agree with the line of reasoning that better adherence to theme would make more people happy. I also think that despite survey results, more people would be happy with less forced character tie-ins. I think it is would be dangerous for Disney to just rest on its laurels. If you look at other corporations, you can see how upstarts have challenged established thinking and been successful. Disney is (or was) one of those companies (nobody at the time thought that full length animated movies or a theme park would work).

    However, the whole Disney “no longer cares at all about guest satisfaction” (which I am substituting for happiness) just isn't correct. If all Disney only cared about was making money, then they would never have created the new food guidelines, which I know have strained relationships with partners and cost Disney money.

    I am not so naive to believe that Disney has never made decisions at the theme parks where guest satisfaction was not considered. I find the continuing increase in food and drink prices to be exhibit A of this short sided behavior. Also, I think that Disney does try to capitalize on people’s affinity for its characters even at the expense of quality (e.g. direct to video movies). I think that has happened a lot, but I do think that park management does try to keep their guests happy, and believe that they think this is important to their success. I also think that the company knows that this is how they make money. Otherwise, you wouldn't have seen the subs return or the castle walkthrough re open, which I believe have provided no return to the company.

    This concept is just built into the culture. Having gone through the training and walked the park as a TDA minion (a very low level and non important minion), I know this is the case. I heard many of the “evil” executives talk about this. Believing that this isn’t important to Disney is nave. Look, the parks have demonstrated that theme isn’t as important to them as many of the fans, but you can’t interpret that as saying that they don’t care about guest satisfaction or quality. Do they make mistakes yes, and many times by discounting guest concerns.

    Yet, I’ve seen those survey takers, that have been talked about as being used to justify bad decisions, also be used to measure wait time at restaurants, look at bottle necks and a host of other things all aimed at improving satisfaction. There is just too much investment made in training, studies, guest complaints, etc. for me believe that Disney has completely written this off.

    If you don't believe that this is the case, then I would prepare for the day that these parks either don't exist or are owned by a company other than Disney.

  15. #120

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by SodaInTheMorning View Post
    I guess I'm naive. I believe that Disney's mission statement is to make people happy. I understand that a publically traded company’s responsibility is to make a return for their shareholders. However, they do that by providing something valuable to their customers. They also do this by following a strategy.
    [ ... ]

    However, the whole Disney “no longer cares at all about guest satisfaction” (which I am substituting for happiness) just isn't correct. If all Disney only cared about was making money, then they would never have created the new food guidelines, which I know have strained relationships with partners and cost Disney money.
    I never said that Disney no longer cares about guest satisfaction. Of course they do, but that is only part of the equation. The main goal is to keep the shareholders happy, and they want a return on investment, annual revenue growth, and solid profit margins.

    If Disney was primarily concerned with making guests happy, they would have never built DCA as it opened in 2001, we would have gotten the lavish Winnie the Pooh attraction depicted in concept art, and the Celebration Roundup wouldn't cost $36 per person.

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