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  1. #121

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    You're right, SodaInTheMorning. I wouldn't dare suggest that Disney never does anything right any more than I'd suggest that they never do anything wrong. There are many, many people at the company who ostensibly care a lot about how guests feel. Many people with imagination. Many people who even care about such backwards concepts as being truly revolutionary! You mentioned the return of the subs and the reopening of the castle, and while I'd say the former is a mixed bag, the bottom line is that Disney did bring back two beloved attractions when they could have easily continued to let them rot.

    But the problem is that there are enough people high up in the company with some unfortunate misconceptions about how to create a Disney theme park.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    This is not atypical.
    I'm aware of that. MrLiver once told me I had no "valid" reason for being interested in backstage. Not too long ago, he corrected me when I was wrong about something backstage-related. As you said, go figure.
    Last edited by Datameister; 04-10-2009 at 03:58 PM.


  2. #122

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman13 View Post
    Yep, add a "something goes HORRIBLY wrong" plot and we're good, I (sort of) said that!
    .
    Its been working well for WDI for almost 2 decades.

  3. #123

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Honestly, if it's overdone, it could get old, but I'm with those who laugh at the cliche of it and then proceed to use it nonetheless because...well, it works. It's a fun format. Shouldn't be used always, but when the occasion calls for it, I think it's a perfectly valid approach. I mean, it's really just a slight exaggeration of the basic plot arc: everything's peachy-keen, then something goes horribly wrong, excitement mounts as you try and fail to fix it, and then things finally and suddenly get better. The end. ::shrug:: It works.


  4. #124

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by SodaInTheMorning View Post
    I guess I'm naive. I believe that Disney's mission statement is to make people happy. I understand that a publically traded company’s responsibility is to make a return for their shareholders. .
    This is why I think Disney should have never become a publicly traded company. BTW' I was making a joke Datameister I would like to see WDI stop using the "Something goes horribly wrong" plot and think up something new.

  5. #125

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Yeah, I figured there was a good chance you were joking - and like I said, I understand where that's coming from. It has become a total cliche, and I certainly think that new ways of doing things should be welcomed...provided that they honestly get the job done better than the alternatives. I just happen to think that in some cases, the "and then something goes horribly wrong" device really is just plain effective.


  6. #126

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Yeah, I figured there was a good chance you were joking - and like I said, I understand where that's coming from. It has become a total cliche, and I certainly think that new ways of doing things should be welcomed...provided that they honestly get the job done better than the alternatives. I just happen to think that in some cases, the "and then something goes horribly wrong" device really is just plain effective.
    Lets see the track record.
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  7. #127

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by HMF View Post
    Well, that's not exactly "and then something goes horribly wrong." That's "something's gone missing and we have to find it." And most of those examples are from WDW...I've only been on a few, some of which work and some of which don't. What I was talking about was the far more general approach of starting us off in an environment where everything is more or less okay (Mara's gonna provide us with gifts, we're gonna go for a tour of Endor, etc.) and then it all goes to pieces, and we have to get out of the mess we've found ourselves in. It can encompass such a broad range of ideas that I think it can be useful sometimes. But I also deeply appreciate attractions that do not attempt to force-feed you an explicit story - there's a place for both.


  8. #128

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by HMF View Post
    Its been working well for WDI for almost 2 decades.
    Well, It's sort of like a movie, there's gotta be a conflict.

  9. #129

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    We go to Disney for something else? Uh, I go to Disney to have fun and relax.

    I could spend the money to go to the county fair and ride a ferris wheel and a swing ride, but is it the same experience as DCA? NO! I am also paying for the service I get from the Disney Cast Members. I am also paying for the cleanliness of the park. I am also paying for the SAFE atmosphere I get.

    Your whole premise here is flawed because you see the argument as paying $69 dollars to ride a ferris wheel and paying $7 to ride the same ferris wheel somewhere else. That's not the argument at all. The argument is, am I getting a better OVERALL experience by spending that money at a Disney park and am I getting my monies worth and the answer, for a whole heck of a lot of people is, yes we are getting a better experience.

    For all intents and purposes Walt Disney built the same kind of carnival attractions at Disneyland in 1955 and it was amazingly successful. Why? Because he was offering an overall experience that was better than the competition. That's why you hear Walt focus so much on how the place would be clean and well kept up and a great place to take families.


    I'm glad you feel that you got your money's worth paying $69 to go to DCA when Disneyland across the way has quadruple the entertainment value for the same price.

    Sure, I'd rather go to DCA than a state fair. But I'd rather go to Disneyland than DCA. The problem here is that DCA is to Disneyland as the Carnival is to DCA.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    It's not about the rides at all.
    Oh it's not? So why do you think DCA wasn't as successful as it should have been? Was it the poorly conceived lands? Or was it the lack of attractions aka rides?





    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    That too is a flawed argument. You think that Disney wouldn't have to invest any money in Disneyland if Walt had built it right in 1955?

    Of course they're investing money to expand DCA. They've spent money to expand Disneyland as well. There is really no difference.

    Walt couldn't afford to build Disneyland right in 1955. Nor did he have the time. Also, that was the first time anyone attempted an entertainment enterprise before. It was an experiment and he cut something as soon as he found it wasn't working and fixed it.

    What's DCA's excuse? It's 50 years later and they have a handful of parks to use as experience. So why deliver something that even The Simpsons would lampoon?

    They're not just investing to expand DCA. Carsland is an expansion. Carsland is the ONLY expansion. Everything else is a redo because it failed.



    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    How many things in the park today are being removed? Golden Dreams?

    If there was really a problem with the carnival rides in Paradise Pier, they would be removing and replacing them no? Instead Disney is just giving them a good paint job and adding more detail to the land (just as they did with Fantasyland in 1983) and keeping the roster of attractions mostly intact.

    That certainly doesn't SOUND like something that desperately needs to be fixed.
    Paradise Pier is too big to be replaced. That is why they're keeping it. It's just too late. But they can at least make it look nicer and add a few quality attractions.

    You cannot compare the investment plan of Disneyland with DCA.


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  10. #130

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Because like you've said numerous times on these boards, Disney is a business. Their primary goal is to make money and to keep the shareholders happy. Certainly, making guests happy is part of the equation, but I think it's naive to believe that is management's primary focus. All that really matters is the bottom line and profit margins.
    They can't make money unless they are making people happy. Yes they still have to live within their means, and budget accordingly, but the primary goal will always to be to provide a product that guests want to enjoy.

    They are not, however, in the business of making you, MasterGracey happy, and somehow I think that's where you got your impression.

  11. #131

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    No...but making people happy is worse than making them happier if both are financially responsible options.
    Who gets to decide what is financially responsible? Folks on the internet who have never looked at the books, or the people in Burbank and Wall Street who get paid millions to figure out such things.

    Disney spent billions of dollars doing it the old fashioned way in Paris and the company that owned that park almost went bankrupt and closed the place down. DLP still barely makes any money, even after WDC was contractually obligated to build a second park.

    No - by your logic, it should do things as if it were 1925. That's what Paradise Pier aspires to. On the contrary, what I've suggested is this:
    Paradise Pier aspires to bring classic carnival rides and attractions into a Disney setting. You seem to oppose it on some mistaken notion that Walt Disney would not have liked these attractions, but there's really nothing wrong with the idea of building a rollercoaster or a ferris wheel in a Disney park. That is my whole point here.

    You don't seem to want to accept an attraction as worthy unless it cost over 100 million dollars, and that's just unreasonable.

    Let me ask you this, MrLiver. In a perfect world, what kinds of discussions would happen on sites like MiceChat?
    I would love to see more discussions that actually involve facts and history and less discussions that equate to a lot of fanboys speaking authoratively on the way things SHOULD be done, when they have absolutely no idea why things are the way they are today.

  12. #132

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    If Disney was primarily concerned with making guests happy, they would have never built DCA as it opened in 2001, we would have gotten the lavish Winnie the Pooh attraction depicted in concept art, and the Celebration Roundup wouldn't cost $36 per person.
    Again, you're missing the point. Disney didn't build DCA because they were contractually obligated to build something so they just built the cheapest thing. That thinking is completely flawed. They built a product that they thought people would enjoy and that they would make money on. They built a product that they felt would expand their visitor base and offer an alternative option to Disneyland. They tried something new and it didn't really work out to the extent that they had hoped - but in trying they had every intention to, and they did end up, making millions of folks happy.

    And of course you're completely ignoring the realities of spending and investment that dictates how much Disney can spend on their parks. And you also completely ignore the realities of what the market in Anaheim can support.

    Like I said, Disney could give out a million dollars to every guest at the gate and make a LOT of people REALLY happy, but how long would the company survive if they did that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    I'm aware of that. MrLiver once told me I had no "valid" reason for being interested in backstage. Not too long ago, he corrected me when I was wrong about something backstage-related. As you said, go figure.
    I just don't believe that people should claim to know something about something they know nothing about.

  13. #133

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Who gets to decide what is financially responsible? Folks on the internet who have never looked at the books, or the people in Burbank and Wall Street who get paid millions to figure out such things.
    Coming from someone who, in the past, has stated that they do not work in TDA or have any connection to Disney management, you do one helluva job talking as if you have looked at the books or work in Burbank or Wall Street.

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  14. #134

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    I'm glad you feel that you got your money's worth paying $69 to go to DCA when Disneyland across the way has quadruple the entertainment value for the same price.
    I don't think anyone would deny that Disneyland has more to do and see than DCA, but DCA was never meant to stand on it's own and still compare to Disneyland. DCA was meant to expand the offerings of the resort AS A WHOLE and convince folks to spend an extra day out of their vacation to experience the expanded offerings.

    Oh it's not? So why do you think DCA wasn't as successful as it should have been? Was it the poorly conceived lands? Or was it the lack of attractions aka rides?
    I know why DCA wasn't as successful, and it's exactly what Disney has said it was: the lack of characters in DCA. DCA was built as an alternative to Disneyland, a place where the Disney characters would be relegated to the side, and folks wouldn't have to endure the childish fairy tale atmosphere of Disneyland (you know some people really hate how fake Disney is). Instead of getting the more sophisticated clientele they had wanted to attract, they got the same families from Disneyland coming over and complaining that there weren't enough rides for the stroller set and there were not enough characters. The park was just too plain adult for their typical family audience.

    But saying there are not enough rides, or saying that there isn't enough to do, is completely different from saying that the rides they did build are not entertaining enough. A perfect example of this is the Sun Wheel, which may appear to be just a boring Ferris Wheel, but almost always had a good 30 minute (and sometimes 60 minute) wait time. The Sun Wheel has always been popular and I don't think there has been any serious question as to whether it would stay in the park.

    Once again you are confusing expansion with rejection of the previous product.

    What's DCA's excuse? It's 50 years later and they have a handful of parks to use as experience. So why deliver something that even The Simpsons would lampoon?
    So what you're saying is, that instead of being like Walt Disney and trying to build something that is different and new, they should just continue to be like Walt Disney and build the same thing they already have?

    Let's not forget that the Simpsons also made fun of Disneyland as a whole countless more times than they have DCA or Euro Disney. So Walt Disney DID build a product that the Simpsons would eventually lampoon.

    They're not just investing to expand DCA. Carsland is an expansion. Carsland is the ONLY expansion. Everything else is a redo because it failed.
    So the giant ferris wheel failed and they are going to replace it with a giant ferris wheel? Right.

    Was Fantasyland a failure too? Is that why it had to be redone? What about Tomorrowland? Was it a failure twice?

    It sounds to me as though you are holding DCA to a double standard.

    Paradise Pier is too big to be replaced. That is why they're keeping it. It's just too late. But they can at least make it look nicer and add a few quality attractions.
    I am all for making it look nicer and adding more attractions. That's exactly what they have done with Disneyland in the past 50 years. Saying that Paradise Pier is too big to be replaced is ridiculous though. If Paradise Pier were really dragging down the image of the park, they could have eventually replaced the whole area with Carsland and left a big chunk of real estate for future expansion. They decided to keep it almost entirely as is though, despite the calls from fans on the internet declaring it antithesis of a Disney park experience.

    You cannot compare the investment plan of Disneyland with DCA.
    Why not? How much has Disney spent on Disneyland in the last 50 years?

    You seemed married to the belief that spending money = fixing problems, but certainly you have to admit that isn't always the case.

    And if you really believe that spending money DOES mean fixing problems, then you'd have to also believe that by spending a minimal amount of money on Paradise Pier, that they don't really think that it's much of a problem at all. Right?

  15. #135

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    Re: Walt Disney; Paradise Pier; & The Circle of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Coming from someone who, in the past, has stated that they do not work in TDA or have any connection to Disney management, you do one helluva job talking as if you have looked at the books or work in Burbank or Wall Street.
    Well what's the answer to the question? Who gets to decide what is financially responsible for the company?

    It's sort of like asking who you want to do your taxes. Would you want CPA or some random guy you find off the street?

    It's pretty obvious huh?

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