Help me solve an Indy puzzle!

[Datameister]

Yeah, I don't think they're palm tree shadows. We'd be seeing more of a characteristic palm tree shape to the north of the "holes."

[Uncle Bob]

Data could you overlay that image on a more recent map and see if you can tell if those holes do line up with the wall? Also, it would be interesting to see if the southern-most hole represents the place where the wood wall ends and transitions to concrete.

[Datameister]

Your wish is my command! Assuming we're looking at the same circles, they're marked in red. The southernmost one doesn't match, but the other two are almost perfect.

[Uncle Bob]

Awesome! I have to give all of us a pat on the back for that one, that was a true team effort. So I wonder if they changed that plan after that drawing was done or if there is some other purpose to the southern most hole or what? The more you discover the more questions it opens up, very interesting.

[Datameister]

Yeah, I do wonder what the other one was for...to my knowledge, there's nothing there now, either. Just berm. The Indy queue building indents in the exact same spot.

[Mojave]

Anyone want to guess at how they got from pre-POTC berm, with no retaining wall - it just sloped to the ground, to POTC with retaining wall and apparently wood planks, with the western most half of the berm dug out, all without removing the berm on JC side?

Data, is the concrete arch for Indy's queue at about the location of the upper most red dot?

One POTC question - how do CMs get into the control room? Is there a staircase at the far end of the loading platform - I've never really looked. Or something else?

[Uncle Bob]

The way you always build a retaining wall, they would have excavated the side of the berm back at about a 2 to 1 slope, built the retaining wall and then backfilled behind it. They wouldn't have needed to remove that whole berm, they just would have to dig it back a safe distance so the soil wouldn't colapse while they put in the wood boards.

[Datameister]

Originally Posted by Mojave

Anyone want to guess at how they got from pre-POTC berm, with no retaining wall - it just sloped to the ground, to POTC with retaining wall and apparently wood planks, with the western most half of the berm dug out, all without removing the berm on JC side?

Good question! Very...carefully? I dunno...

Data, is the concrete arch for Indy's queue at about the location of the upper most red dot?

It's slightly further northeast. See the square within a larger square (with breaks in the lines) just north of the dot? That's the structure where POTC extended queue was, and where the Indy queue obelisk chamber is now. Follow those lines southeast, and you have the exact location of the concrete arch.

One POTC question - how do CMs get into the control room? Is there a staircase at the far end of the loading platform - I've never really looked. Or something else?

There is indeed a staircase at the end of the loading platform - about 10 steps, I believe. (Yes, I counted as we floated by. ) There is also a stairwell inside the Indy queue, believe it or not - you can see it in this construction photo, toward the left.



That stairwell, which is hidden behind a door most people don't see as they take the exit path out of the bamboo canyon, goes up to the roof of the queue building and then into the Pirates tower, I believe. There's also a stairwell visible in the above blueprint that's in the same spot and appears to do the same thing. That door can also be accessed via a long catwalk that goes over the bamboo canyon nowadays - here's what you can see if you stand up against the wall and stand on tippie-toes with your camera above your head. Not that I know this from experience or anything...



The door in question is just to the right of that themed wall. You get up to that catwalk via a stairwell at the southeast corner of the first Pirates show building - you can see bits of it in these photos (1 2 3). There's actually a door in the Indy queue that goes out right under those stairs, at the end of the bamboo canyon but before the big "elephant doors."

[Peoplemover Priit]

Very interesting. Cool construction pics btw.

[Uncle Bob]

Wow, that's quite a little maze that guests can't even tell exists, I knew there were some doors there but I didn't know it was that extensive.

[Mojave]

Originally Posted by Datameister

It's slightly further northeast. See the square within a larger square (with breaks in the lines) just north of the dot? That's the structure where POTC extended queue was, and where the Indy queue obelisk chamber is now. Follow those lines southeast, and you have the exact location of the concrete arch.

That is the room that had double arched doors on both sides. It can be seen in that other Indy queue construction photo. And the concrete arch was right to the southwest of that, basically between that room and the first red dot. So you're comment confuses me a bit. Maybe you could overlay the arch on your previous overlay?

Also, the old extended POTC queue (the one referenced in that other thread) was in the large rectangular section that has the smaller "STOR." storage room inside it. It has the door at the end against the POTC show building as expected.

Originally Posted by Datameister

There is also a stairwell inside the Indy queue, believe it or not - you can see it in this construction photo, toward the left.

Which direction are we looking here? I'm thrown off a bit. I assume POTC is on the right side.

[Datameister]

Originally Posted by Mojave

That is the room that had double arched doors on both sides. It can be seen in that other Indy queue construction photo.

Correct.

And the concrete arch was right to the southwest of that, basically between that room and the first red dot.

Not quite. It looks like that, yes, but the arch is actually only shifted a little further southwest - it matches up with half of that room. Kinda hard to explain. Here's another overlay that may help a little. (Sorry it's cut off...I'm working off of the other overlay, which doesn't contain the entire space where the arch is.)

Also, the old extended POTC queue (the one referenced in that other thread) was in the large rectangular section that has the smaller "STOR." storage room inside it. It has the door at the end against the POTC show building as expected.

Really? I didn't realize it was that big. I guess I figured it was just in the area where the obelisk chamber is now. Interesting! So that larger area must have been the part with the cheap shade everyone remembers.

Which direction are we looking here? I'm thrown off a bit. I assume POTC is on the right side.

That's correct. We're standing in the exit path, looking backwards (southwest), perhaps a third of the way from the northeasternmost dot to the next one. The bamboo canyon is down yonder toward the right.

[Bruce Bergman]

Originally Posted by Datameister

Your wish is my command! Assuming we're looking at the same circles, they're marked in red. The southernmost one doesn't match, but the other two are almost perfect.

The holes marked in red are most likely where they bored for core samples. Standard construction practice if they don't want to get sued over construction defects later. "That wall is falling over!"

The furthest south red-dot hole looks like they missed where the wall was going - but that little artwork on the prints sure looks like a set of stairs to get up on the berm, so they might have wanted to know what was under there for the Horticulture Dept. folks. They would want to know if they were putting a big tree there.

This was farmland up till 1953, and {$Deity} only knows what was done there before Disney bought it and plowed under the orange trees. They graded the land and built up the berm for original Disneyland construction in 1954-55.

Now it's 1965-ish, and you don't want to trust old records about grading and compaction. When you go to build a wall there, they have to know the exact soil conditions and the depth and compaction of the berm fill, and the base soil underneath. That tells them how deep and how wide the footing trench needs to be, how heavy the wall needs to be, and if they need to put in tie-backs in the side of the hill. (Quoins? Wing walls? Not sure of the term when it's a wall section going back into the hill to let it's own weight stabilize it.)

Sandy soil, light loamy topsoil, and clay soil will need very different wall designs.

Mojave, there are many ways to put in the wall without removing the berm first, and minimum disruption to Jungle Cruise.

The old way was to dig a trench, pile-drive the steel beams into the dirt, and drop in the wood planks. If you didn't have the room to slope back the wall to a safe ratio (or other reasons like an existing building right next to yours) you could make it a straight sided trench - but nobody went down in there because without any shoring it was a serious collapse hazard. People die when un-shored trenches collapse while they are in them.

You did everything from up top - lower the planks with ropes and lever them in place with long bars or timbers. Then backfill a bit to hold it in place, and install the next timber.

Once your timber shoring is in place, then you could excavate the backside of the hill and build forms and pour the permanent wall, and finally you pull out the steel beams and planks (Same thing, from up top) and backfill the soil in the trench left behind.

Nowadays, they would use sheet piling and a hydraulic vibratory pile driver (held by a crane or excavator) - big sheets of interlocking corrugated steel, and a vibratory driver zaps them in like staples (once you find the resoinant frequency of the dirt, takes a bit of adjustment).

Then excavate behind the sheet piling and form the footings and the wall, using the sheet piling as the outer form. Then they can either pull the sheet piling straight up and out for reuse with the vibratory driver, or leave it in place forever as a structural part of the wall.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Datameister]

Bruce, your posts never cease to fascinate me. Thank you, as always, for sharing your technical knowledge with the rest of us!

[Mojave]

Originally Posted by Datameister

That double overlay is perfect! Thanks. Totally syncs up with your explanation.

Originally Posted by Datameister

Really? I didn't realize it was that big. I guess I figured it was just in the area where the obelisk chamber is now. Interesting! So that larger area must have been the part with the cheap shade everyone remembers.

Well it was a long time ago, but I think my memory is correct. I know for sure the queue went into that larger room. And since the back wall (with door and stairs just beyond) exists but there is no intervening wall, I have to assume that was the wall I remember with the door and fountain.

Originally Posted by Datameister

That's correct. We're standing in the exit path, looking backwards (southwest), perhaps a third of the way from the northeasternmost dot to the next one. The bamboo canyon is down yonder toward the right.

Again, with your overlay, I can see the double stairs of your construction post and it all gibes up perfectly. Nice!

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

Mojave, there are many ways to put in the wall without removing the berm first, and minimum disruption to Jungle Cruise.

The old way was to dig a trench, pile-drive the steel beams into the dirt, and drop in the wood planks. If you didn't have the room to slope back the wall to a safe ratio (or other reasons like an existing building right next to yours) you could make it a straight sided trench - but nobody went down in there because without any shoring it was a serious collapse hazard. People die when un-shored trenches collapse while they are in them.

You did everything from up top - lower the planks with ropes and lever them in place with long bars or timbers. Then backfill a bit to hold it in place, and install the next timber.

Once your timber shoring is in place, then you could excavate the backside of the hill and build forms and pour the permanent wall, and finally you pull out the steel beams and planks (Same thing, from up top) and backfill the soil in the trench left behind.

With the old way, the trench would be dug down to the bottom, correct? Considering that JC berm looks to be about 15' tall, you're talking about a big wall of dirt! How did they keep that from crumbling? Is it a matter of wetting and compacting before digging the trench? I can understand "nobody went down in there"!

From the Indy construction photos, it looks like they had left the timber planks in place rather than removed them. Is that normal? You seem to suggest normally they would remove them after building the permanent wall.