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  1. #46

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Your thinking is limited, and your logic is faulty. No one suggested charging seven or eight dollars to experience Pirates of the Caribbean. Tickets and varying ticket prices would modulate utilization of capacity across the board by putting butts in the seats of underutilized attractions and by charging essentially a premium for overutilized attractions. So, exactly the opposite would happen since the capacity of attractions that are expensive to operate would be filled more consistently and fully. And, wait times at overutilized attractions would be reduced.

    You're also thinking too much like the new Disney and not like the old Disney. The main gate needs to subsidize all businesses inside the gate, if those businesses contribute in some way to main-gate sales since, as John Hench famously observed, Disneyland is a system. The morons in charge of Parks & Resorts, though, now have financial reporting measures that do not reflect reality, so you're right that smarter people would need to be brought into the organization if it ever returned to something approximating the old business model.
    obviously the "everyone pitches in" mentality would be present. The question is would the most popular attractions make enough money to fully subsidize the discounted admission prices of the older attractions? All attractions have a finite amount of individuals they can process in an hour. If an older attraction is "forced" to discount their tickets to get "butts in the seats" would there be enough popular attractions (again combined with other sales) to pick up the slack? This becomes an even more important question when you compare the amount of what would likely be your "popular" higher priced attractions to the amount of your older attractions. Mr Liver's point is that there would not be enough popular attractions to help carry the weight of the older attractions that we all know and love. Some of that support would be from store sales, food locations, gate admission... the point is can they support the weight of the aging attractions, maintain a profit, and still provide the income necessary to maintain their own facilities? It's a valid question.
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  2. #47

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    It isn't. Attractions, with rare exceptions, naturally see their attendance fall as they age. So, that underutilized capacity is what makes the proposition of operating a particular attraction relatively expensive.

    The attractions are going to age no matter what one does to them, and the ticket prices will reflect that fact, just as they did in the past when "E"-ticket offerings would eventually become "D"-tickets and so on. And, since many of the attractions would be paying for themselves, reinvestment to lengthen their life cycles is also a very attractive possibility.
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 05-28-2009 at 10:01 AM.

  3. #48

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    It isn't. Attractions, with rare exceptions, naturally see their attendance fall as they age. So, that underutilized capacity is what makes the proposition of operating a particular attraction relatively expensive.

    The attractions are going to age no matter what one does to them, and the ticket prices will reflect that fact, just as they did in the past when "E"-ticket offerings would eventually become "D"-tickets and so on. And, since many of the attractions would be paying for themselves, reinvestment to lengthen their life cycles is also a very attractive possibility.
    True but this avoids the initial question... would there be enough "E" and "D" ticket sales to help the discounted "A", "B", and "C" ticket sales while still maintaining both profit and sustainability of the "E" and "D" attractions? If someone is not pulling their weight in a "shared" economy then it forces other areas to work harder (thereby raising the prices in those areas).

    The current number of attractions are skewed to a point where I would question the viability of the shared model. If Disney were to try and adjust the numbers by building an "E" or "D" ticket attraction then there is more to consider. You then have to factor in the cost of building a new attraction vs the cost of maintaining an older one. If Disney constructed new attractions under this system they would be inclined to build "E" or "D" ticket attractions to further support the existing attractions. But that adds another issue. When you build something new you can charge a premium for it's ticket. But it's popularity would likely affect the ridership of other attractions forcing other attractions to discount their tickets to "A", "B", or "C" thereby increasing the number of dependents. In short your new "E" or "D" could create more dependents instead of it's intended purpose of supporting the existing ones.
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  4. #49

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    You're making things too complicated for yourself. Just think of the existing model, which has all the attractions included with the price of admission, and imagine new attractions being ticketed separately.

    Disneyland ultimately cannot sustain itself without pay-for-play options.

  5. #50

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    You're making things too complicated for yourself. Just think of the existing model, which has all the attractions included with the price of admission, and imagine new attractions being ticketed separately.

    Disneyland ultimately cannot sustain itself without pay-for-play options.
    I fail to see the logic in this. Individuals already pay $70 a pop just to get into Disneyland, now the suggestion is to have a ticketed price attached to new attractions as well? This would likely encourage increased ridership of the older attractions and the revenue generated would be questionable because it would economic "crowd control". You wouldn't be able to lower the gate price and after a year would likely have to either lower or drop the ticket price as well. Again I fail to see the logic in this.
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  6. #51

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Disneyland operated for a time with both unlimited-use passports and ticket books.

    The sole reason the attraction tickets were eliminated outright was to reduce labor expenses, but, with the addition of greeters and Fastpass ticket dispensers, those costs are no longer a concern.
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 05-28-2009 at 12:07 PM.

  7. #52

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Disneyland operated for a time with both an unlimited-use passports and ticket books.

    The sole reason the attraction tickets were eliminated outright was to reduce labor expenses, but, with the addition of greeters and Fastpass ticket dispensers, those costs are no longer a concern.
    But when Disney operated with both the cost of admission was significantly less... Now you are attempting to go back to the older style system with a $70 cover charge. The "nickel and dime" complaints would prevail.
    Last edited by techskip; 05-28-2009 at 12:08 PM.
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  8. #53

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Unlimited-use passports would still be available alongside the limited-use admission media, so the pricing policy for the former wouldn't change much. We're effectively talking about offering a lower-priced option in order to: (1.) fill underutilized capacity; (2.) reduce wait times; (3.) lengthen life cycles of attractions: and, (4.) add new attractions to lengthen the life cycle of the park, itself.

  9. #54

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Unlimited-use passports would still be available alongside the limited-use admission media, so the pricing policy for the former wouldn't change much. We're effectively talking about offering a lower-priced option in order to: (1.) fill underutilized capacity; (2.) reduce wait times; (3.) lengthen life cycles of attractions: and, (4.) add new attractions to lengthen the life cycle of the park, itself.
    Even this system would not make sense. Disney has openly stated that it's target demographic is the vacationing tourist. The tourist would be an individual who does not generally visit the park and thereby would likely purchase the unlimited pass to experience all attractions at a set price. The limited use option would likely be used by the locals who frequent the park for one or two attractions, but again it would depend on the use of it. Likewise a local would have no incentive to purchase such a pass if they have an AP. And offering this type of limited option pass would further crowd the parks with the discount happy public. I personally would welcome the chance to not pay a dime and just walk around... but I feel those days are long gone.

    This system would basically pit tourist dollars against local dollars with the fate of less popular attractions hanging in the balance.
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  10. #55

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    I have to agree with TechSkip.

    If you put the letter tickets in, I doubt that a family would spend as much on rides. It is a lot easier to spend a large ammount of money at once with known expectations then to constantly have to buy more and more tickets for rides. You would hear more "Lets just go home, another pack of tickets is to expensive" People would stay less time, and we all know that means Disney looses $$

  11. #56

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    But when Disney operated with both the cost of admission was significantly less... Now you are attempting to go back to the older style system with a $70 cover charge. The "nickel and dime" complaints would prevail.
    No, if they went with the older system, there would be a general admission ticket available, maybe $20 or so. So, they would pick up a number of people who are reluctant to spend $65 when all they wanted to do was a little shopping, maybe see a parade or Fantasmic and a dinner. Food and merchandise seems to be a key revenue excuse that they use to validate the AP program.

  12. #57

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55 View Post
    No, if they went with the older system, there would be a general admission ticket available, maybe $20 or so. So, they would pick up a number of people who are reluctant to spend $65 when all they wanted to do was a little shopping, maybe see a parade or Fantasmic and a dinner. Food and merchandise seems to be a key revenue excuse that they use to validate the AP program.
    Yes, while the old ticket system was not perfect, there was a logic behind it. As usual, Walt Disney and his associates knew what they were doing.

  13. #58

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    They should improve what already is built. Disneyland is a complete park that needs to be updated in Fantasyland. Remake all those old rides into newer versions with better AA´s and perhaps digital projections on the walls... and so on. Some of the rides have a few years...

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  14. #59

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55 View Post
    No, if they went with the older system, there would be a general admission ticket available, maybe $20 or so. So, they would pick up a number of people who are reluctant to spend $65 when all they wanted to do was a little shopping, maybe see a parade or Fantasmic and a dinner. Food and merchandise seems to be a key revenue excuse that they use to validate the AP program.
    True... but how many tourists would opt for the $65 instead of the $20 and pay for play? Locals would likely do the "pay for play" if they didn't already have AP's... but with the AP program you would likely see less revenue because most locals would spend a great deal less vs the admission price now!

    Admission now is a guaranteed source of revenue from all parties that are not AP. With this system you are giving people an option, and given spending habits they will look to which one spends less... Tourists would do the all in one, locals would do 1 or 2 attractions and go home.
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  15. #60

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    Re: Where would you like to see Discovery Bay?

    I really don't think going to the old ticketing system would really have that much of an effect at all. I think people are nostalgic for the old days and I just don't think that changing this would have that significant of an impact on the park. Overall I think they would still end up with about the same income and be willing to reinvest about the same amount of money as they do now. It would have some impact on the length of lines for certain attractions and things due to their prices, but I really doubt they'd need to or would start building new E-tickets all the time just because of the ticketing system.

    I also think people's expectations of theme parks today are that they are single price experiences and I really don't think the public would react well to going back to the old system. If it's just an option, then it's one few would take and it wouldn't really change anything. I think manipulation of the prices of the current ticketing media could have more significant results on improving both the park and the bottom line than going to the old system. Single day tickets have become too high, especially compared to how cheap the AP options have become, and because you can use a B-day ticket to pay your downpayment and then have monthly payments AP holders have really swelled. While I'm not one that's completely against the AP program and think it can be a good thing for the parks, I do think that the current discounting is causing problems that will likely continue beyond this recession, which is unfortunate.
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