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  1. #181

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Enforcing the return time would certainly lessen excessive interruptions of the standby lines and even things out a bit there. In fact there would be a few less FPers returning and interrupting the standby lines because they missed their windows. But it doesn't do anything to eliminate the "waiting in two places at once" factor. Those people will do their "waiting" not just in other lines but throughout the rest of the park, affecting everybody including FP users. There's surely no question--and it's been mentioned plenty--that Disney comes out ahead with the extra people "waiting" and spending in stores and at ODVs, and that it was a major motive in the first place. Somebody (techskip I think) already said in an earlier post about this being stated in an internal memo.
    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55
    ANOTHER reason why removing FP would reduce wait times.
    Although it's kinda crass to say so, I was thinking the same thing, although they'd probably be offset by others currently put off because of fastpass becoming regular visitors again. Really, only those whose primary activity in the parks is to ride the big Es using FPs should be affected by its removal. Personally there's no way it'd keep me from the parks. As a regularly-attending annual passholder, rides have become less important than they'd probably be to someone who rarely visits, meaning FP is also less important. I do use it some (and don't advocate refusing to while it exists), and consider it something of a necessity in this FP environment for a few rides like Space.

  2. #182

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by HighLeveller View Post
    Somebody (techskip I think) already said in an earlier post about this being stated in an internal memo.
    I wish I had the memo now... I'm trying to remember the exact wording. In a nutshell it said the purpose of Fastpass was to be a reservation system that would allow the Guests to plan their day, shop, and dine, without needing to wait in a line. They looked at it similar to making reservations at a restaurant. Your return time was supposed to be reflective of the current standby wait time plus some additional time due to the choice of Fastpass (if it was at 45 min your return would be in 60 min). It was initially designed for Small World Holiday.

    What no one took into account until later was how popular it would be (most people like a shortcut) and the fact that people would get one, then stand in another line. Basing it on the wait time became unrealistic due to the amount of Fastpasses they wanted to issue so the computer "formula" was developed... allowing them to issue x Fastpasses per 5 minute interval. The return of Fastpass was then switched from "primary boarding" to a merge system where the line past the merge point is maintained below 15 minutes.

    The initial rollout of Small World and Splash demonstrated that people would wait in other lines, not just go shopping and dining, but it wasn't a "big deal" because it was 2 attractions. As more attractions went to Fastpass the issue became more apparent. Suddenly everyone had a Fastpass, most major attractions had a 15 minute indoor queue, and no one cared how long they stood in line. Then marketing decided to get into the mix. They decided if you used AAA to book a vacation they would let you get 2 Fastpasses at once (second Fastpass to a minor attraction like Autopia or Roger). That went over like a lead balloon. People didn't read the fine print and were upset that they couldn't Fastpass Space and Indy at the same time. Disney also decided DCA and Disneyland should be on separate Fastpass Systems... they didn't think someone would walk all the way over to Grizzly, then over to Indy, then over to Roger... give people proper motivation and they will walk almost anywhere.

    Disney turned a blind eye to the issue of longer wait times, citing the public outcry if they removed this "VIP treatment". They did curtail the AAA promotional, and supposedly put everything on the same server (never tested it). Physical hard numbers finally opened their eyes to what it does to standby queues.At that point Pirates and Haunted Mansion both dropped Fastpass in a heartbeat. There was talk of BLAB and Thunder loosing it as well. At this point the Fastpass system has been selectively downsized. Disney has not constructed a new attraction with it, and has not publicly said anything in regards to future plans. TLM likely will not have it because it is based on an omnimover system.

    If they do phase it out, then they will likely test it in the Off Season, and then only offer it on the busiest of days. Eventually they would remove the signs, then the physical machines, and Fastpass would then be a memory. If it happens, it will happen slowly, because they are afraid of the public outcry.
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  3. #183

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    ^ Yikes. Did TDA develop this on their own or bring in flow management consultants? If not the latter, you'd think they would've at least done some computer modeling before launching it, given all the simulation programs then available for everything from freeway flow patterning to least-effort routes between hunter-gatherer resource points.

    I don't know what's more mindboggling, their assumption that Disneyland as a flow system has any analogue to that of a restaurant, or not foreseeing that when a VIP-style pass is offered for free, everyone and their mother is going to want one -- and will be pissed if they can't get it!

    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 06-04-2009 at 11:18 AM.
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  4. #184

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Fastpass most certainly increases the VARIANCE of wait times for all guests. Some wait not as long as the mean (with FP, no one waits the mean -- there's a hump for FP'ers at 10 minutes, and a hump for standbyers at 40-75 minutes), and most wait longer than the mean. increased variance leads to unhappy guests, who might not come again, and also tell their friends not to come.
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  5. #185

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    ^ Yikes. Did TDA develop this on their own or bring in flow management consultants? If not the latter, you'd think they would've at least done some computer modeling before launching it, given all the simulation programs then available for everything from freeway flow patterning to least-effort routes between hunter-gatherer resource points.

    I don't know what's more mindboggling, their assumption that Disneyland as a flow system has any analogue to that of a restaurant, or not foreseeing that when a VIP-style pass is offered for free, everyone and their mother is going to want one -- and will be pissed if they can't get it!
    To my limited knowledge no... the thought was the "flow" would be in the stores and restaurants making Disney money. TDA didn't think people would want to stand in line if they already had a Fastpass. Given this pre-determined assumption I don't think they tested flow pattern further.

    This is why I laugh when people say the system is "designed to be utilized to it's maximum potential". It was designed so you could shop and get a bite to eat. The fact that you can get a ticket and then stand in another line... that is the flaw... not the goal.
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  6. #186

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Maybe you should have to have your FP validated by a store, restaurant or ODV to activate it. If you didn't do what it was designed for, you simply couldn't use it.
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  7. #187

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
    Maybe you should have to have your FP validated by a store, restaurant or ODV to activate it. If you didn't do what it was designed for, you simply couldn't use it.
    That wouldn't change a thing... you buy a Dole Whip, validate your Indy Fastpass, and go stand in line for Space...

    Disney would get additional revenue but it would not prevent people from standing in a second line. Again... stressing this... I do not blame people for taking advantage of the system as long as they fully admit they are doing exactly that! It was not designed to be used in the manner the majority of individuals use it.
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  8. #188

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    ...the thought was the "flow" would be in the stores and restaurants making Disney money. TDA didn't think people would want to stand in line if they already had a Fastpass.
    Reminds me of the prevalent assumption at TDB when DCA was being planned: that the majority of guests (over-18 adults) visit Disney theme parks for the shopping and eating, not the "rides" (which, like Disney cartoons, were thought of as being for the kiddies).

    Goes to show you what miracles are possible when your top management team (composed of people who'd never visited a Disney theme park before, much less worked in one) decides to reinvent a wheel that had been successfully turning for four decades.


    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 06-04-2009 at 02:39 PM.
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  9. #189

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    There are plenty of success stories about products that were designed to do one thing but actually ended up doing another. Ivory soap was a bad batch of laundry detergent that ended up floating. WD-40 was the 40th attempt at just displacing water (preventing rust) but became one of the most useful lubricants known to man! Dr Pepper was supposed to be a health drink. Fastpass does a great job of making lines longer... it's "success" is questionable because many tourists (it's primary market) don't know what it is or how to use it.
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  10. #190

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    still... I miss the days when themed attraction ques were actually part of the story! I could care less either way if they take it out but I noticed that half the time the fun before fastpass was in going to the park and not having to rush clear across the park to claim one for different attractions and example would be this...

    [We rush as the first attraction for space mountain at roe drop to get a fastpass, then claim one for a non networked ride aka Roger Rabbit, and then kill time in lines for less crowded attractions until space mountain, then rush to Space Mountain to ride and then run clear across the park to Splash Mountain for a fastpass, then kill time on other rides until that, then rush again to the next fastpass attraction, and claim another Roger Rabbit fastpass after doing it for the fastpass window there then somehow rush back to the other fastpass attraction like Indy, then kill time until that, then Splash, then the same thing until that... and the cycle keeps going, then we find times are later for attractions there so we hope to DCA and repeat knowing full well they accept them after the time, so we are holding multiple fastpasses for one park, head to the other and do stuff there the same type of way, leave DCA after we use our last fastpass there and then use the others we didnt get to use at Disneyland and then repeat the above until theres no more fastpass for the day... some days we have gone through numerous fastpasses for different things and I think my record in one day was 9 or 10 fastpasses between the 2 parks from the time between rope drop and closing because return windows near rop drop are small and DCA is on a different network.... Space Mountain, Indy, Haunted Mansion Holiday, Splash Mountain, Roger Rabbit, Buzz Lightyear, Grizzly, Screamin, Soarin... Granted this was during the more "off peak" months like October but still think of how much walking between back and forth that was]

    thats a lot of walking for one day and no wonder people get tired and crankier after a day in the parks because I know I do... the time was more relaxed back when I was a child and not as stressful.

    And without fastpass we actually started on one side of the park and worked our way around rather than zipping from one side to the other. The day was a lot less paced and scheduled and more about just finding attractions we wanted to ride and try and getting in line and enjoying the themed ques and having a constant moving line which might not have been quick all the time time but they did not start and stop which psychologically made the wait even worse. I honestly enjoyed how Midway Mania had a huge line but it at least moved and I did not mind it at all.

    Still... I really think that slowly they should phase it out if I had to pick a side of the fence
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  11. #191

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Fastpass does a great job of making lines longer... it's "success" is questionable because many tourists (it's primary market) don't know what it is or how to use it.
    FastPass is successful for those who exploit it BECAUSE many tourists don't know how to use it.
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  12. #192

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    FastPass is successful for those who exploit it BECAUSE many tourists don't know how to use it.

    And that's why it works well in Florida and not as much at Disneyland, where it's definitely being exploited.


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  13. #193

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    As for "VIP treatment", boy, when FP was new, you could ask any CM that worked the Merge Point about how special the guests felt! They had to install phones at all the merge points for the CM's safety because of all the threats! Even still, I see too many confused guests. Not so much at DLR because of the high AP numbers, but even in that case, how cool is that to be a first timer and have all the good FP's disappear in the early hours of the day to all the savvy AP's?
    Then there's the theming: WDI spent boatloads of cash and effort into making the elaborate queues for attractions (Indy, Roger, etc) that now get blown by when you use FP. Shame!
    Now, how about the pointlessness of FP in some cases? At least they fixed a lot of this: Pirates FP was about as useful as Muppet FP wasn't it? Well hey, at least it created some extra hours for the starving CM's!
    So, if I had to choose, give me the good old days again, where you could just go to Disneyland without having to think too hard. Less congested entrances to attractions would be a plus! "Is this where we go with the fast track?" "Wait, we need one of these for each person?" "You mean I actually have to wait 45 minutes to use this thing?" Ugh.

  14. #194

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    There is some wait time with FP that I think heavy FP users are not including in there own personal calculations. When I'm really using the system for all it's worth, I am racing back and forth across the park. However, that extra travel time back and forth and the time to get the FP represents wait time. So, really a 15 minute wait in the actual ride queue may really have involved at least a total of 30 minutes of dedicated time to a single attract when all of the extra travel time, getting the FP, and waiting in the queue is added up. Depending on how much time the standby queues would reduce by, it's possible that the heavy users of FP may not actually be gaining anything at all. Net net, how much do the few who think they benefit actually really benefit?

  15. #195

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Are you saying that Fastpass doesn't greatly effect the time one spends waiting in lines? You lost me...

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