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  1. #106

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    The truth is that you end up waiting in line either way.

    Yes it's true that standby waits are shorter when Fastpass isn't offered. Unless you're planning to only go on attractions that offer Fastpass, and only use Fastpass to board them, then at some point during the day you're going to wait in a line that is made longer because of Fastpass.

    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here despite the really informed debate, has been the effects of Fastpass on the park as a whole, and not just attractions.

    Because fewer people are waiting in line, the streets and walkways in the park feel crowded and clogged. Disney has spent a good chunk of change that would have gone into other projects, just in widening walkways and reducing green areas. If the folks in the Astro Orbitor thread were to get their way, Disney would have to spend MORE money to move the Astro Orbitor (and we're talking in the millions here) to open up the walkway into Tomorrowland.

    All those people have to go somewhere and that means longer lines for everything. Longer lines for shows, restrooms, long lines for the Restaurants and even longer lines for the ODV carts.

    In my experience the NUMBER ONE PROBLEM that faces every guest at Disneyland, above all else, are folks that take up seating and tables at Restaurants without having any food. The last time I was at the park I skipped eating at several places simply because there was no place to sit. That just infuriates me that people could be so rude.

    Prior to Fastpass, Disneyland's in-park attendance peaked around 80k. I remember back in the day, that the standing rule was to only run the Columbia on days when the Attendance was projected over 60k. Today, 60k is pretty much the threshhold of having to close the gate. Because of Fastpass the capacity of the park as a whole has been lowered.

    If you go back and look up the posts from 1999, when the system came online you can see where folks pointed out and even originally complained about those changes.

    Trust those of us who know, the park really was better off before Fastpass.
    I have been staying out of this debate, but this is an excellent post and totally true.
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
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  2. #107

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mouse View Post
    It's harder for people who live around the park to understand. I have to book time off of work(I'm also a contract worker I don't get paid days I don't work), pay quite a bit to fly down, pay for hotel, pay for food, pay for park tickets. It's not just a day trip or a weekend drive, it's an ordeal that is quite expensive already. What are we talking about for ride times? To me at some point my money is better off spent elsewhere. To be honest I would probably wait and read forums such as these to gauge ride times for the first year or two before planning a trip to go back if fast passes were taken away.
    I completely understand. It is the equivalent of me flying somewhere else on vacation (contrary to popular belief locals here do travel on vacation). I realize there is a great deal of time and money involved in traveling. I also realize that having 30 or 45 minute lines for popular attractions is likely a lot better then having 30 or 45 minute lines for unpopular ones and 90 minutes for popular ones. The elimination of Fastpass eliminates the "2 places at once" and forces people to spend their time based on merit. As I said if you remove the incentive the line becomes shorter. I'm not going to wait 2hrs for Splash... not sure about you... but if Splash is 45 minutes I might stand in line.

    Like I said the threshold for tourists is generally greater then the threshold for locals because we can come back. To us 45 minutes is a pretty long line and we may not even bother to stand in it. A lot of what you see in a 75 minute, 90 minute, 2 hr line is people holding Fastpasses... but ask yourself... would they be in that long of a line if they didn't have one? You already made it clear you wouldn't!

    I also think it is wise to check the forums and read reviews. I do that a lot whenever I plan on going anywhere. It really pays to be a smart traveler! I may be a local here... doesn't mean I'm a local anywhere I go.
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  3. #108

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    ....Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here despite the really informed debate, has been the effects of Fastpass on the park as a whole, and not just attractions.

    Because fewer people are waiting in line, the streets and walkways in the park feel crowded and clogged....

    ....Because of Fastpass the capacity of the park as a whole has been lowered.

    If you go back and look up the posts from 1999, when the system came online you can see where folks pointed out and even originally complained about those changes.

    Trust those of us who know, the park really was better off before Fastpass.
    Quotable quotes from an excellent post!


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  4. #109

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by WestsideCM99 View Post
    I doubt that DLR will phase out FP if it continues to stuff guests into the parks with these special park offers. The parks need FP more than ever now to keep the masses appeased.
    Keeping them appeased is one thing... causing excessive amounts of people to stand in pathways is another. The more crowds, the faster Fastpass is "sold out" and the longer the lines because the 15 minute mandate must be maintained.

    I do however think that the resort could be planning an update to FP. I have always thought that Disney could capitalize on the idea of using FP as an exclusive feature available only to the guests that stay in the resort hotels rather than have it available to all guests. Why not really? It takes the average 1st or 2nd time guest to the parks nearly half the day to grasp the concept of FP while the local guests come in and gobble up all the good times as soon as the park opens. By then the poor tourists find themselves with a fastpass ticket for Indy or Space Mountain with a return time of 3pm when it is 10 in the morning.
    I am curious how it can automatically be assumed that local guests are coming in and "gobbling up" the Fastpasses? Is it possible that tourists on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th... day figured out how to use the system? Is it possible that tourists figured it out on day 1? Is it possible that this might be a tourist's 2nd or 3rd... trip and they already know how the system works? How can it automatically be assumed locals are to blame? In honesty if it's that crowded a lot of locals stay home! I'm sure there is a mix of locals... but I doubt it is a local conspiracy to gobble up all Fastpasses in order to take revenge on the invading tourists!
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  5. #110

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    The truth is that you end up waiting in line either way.

    Yes it's true that standby waits are shorter when Fastpass isn't offered. Unless you're planning to only go on attractions that offer Fastpass, and only use Fastpass to board them, then at some point during the day you're going to wait in a line that is made longer because of Fastpass.

    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here despite the really informed debate, has been the effects of Fastpass on the park as a whole, and not just attractions.

    Because fewer people are waiting in line, the streets and walkways in the park feel crowded and clogged. Disney has spent a good chunk of change that would have gone into other projects, just in widening walkways and reducing green areas. If the folks in the Astro Orbitor thread were to get their way, Disney would have to spend MORE money to move the Astro Orbitor (and we're talking in the millions here) to open up the walkway into Tomorrowland.

    All those people have to go somewhere and that means longer lines for everything. Longer lines for shows, restrooms, long lines for the Restaurants and even longer lines for the ODV carts.

    In my experience the NUMBER ONE PROBLEM that faces every guest at Disneyland, above all else, are folks that take up seating and tables at Restaurants without having any food. The last time I was at the park I skipped eating at several places simply because there was no place to sit. That just infuriates me that people could be so rude.

    Prior to Fastpass, Disneyland's in-park attendance peaked around 80k. I remember back in the day, that the standing rule was to only run the Columbia on days when the Attendance was projected over 60k. Today, 60k is pretty much the threshhold of having to close the gate. Because of Fastpass the capacity of the park as a whole has been lowered.

    If you go back and look up the posts from 1999, when the system came online you can see where folks pointed out and even originally complained about those changes.

    Trust those of us who know, the park really was better off before Fastpass.

    100%.

    Techskip and the other CMs have also echo'd a lot of this.


    And to those who think FP is great for a tourist to map out their day to "do more", it doesn't. For a tourist, I think it's a better way to map out my day by knowing exactly how long i'll be waiting in line for EVERY ride.

    Even though fast pass saves you a spot, you don't get right on. You still need to wait in line for it!

    The standby wait times are all increased with Fast Pass, making it seem even more unbearable.


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  6. #111

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    Techskip and the other CMs have also echo'd a lot of this.
    Which is ironic because I initially said I would not get into this... no one to blame but myself though!
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  7. #112

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    So... what if the elimination of Fastpass made lines shorter?
    Unless doing so reduces the wait to less then 10 minutes - you'll never win that argument.

    With sufficient # of attractions offering fastpass.. you can avoid waiting in most lines period. So if you wait in 2-3 lines that are 20% longer - so what you didn't wait in almost any line for the 8-9 attractions before it.

    Irregardless of a total summation of wait times - everyone knows people don't like waiting in lines. If you keep a person busy, the wait is tolerated. It's a large portion why Disney invested in preshows in the first place. Fastpass just keeps you busy in another way - by letting you free to move about and multi-task.
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  8. #113

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    With sufficient # of attractions offering fastpass.. you can avoid waiting in most lines period. So if you wait in 2-3 lines that are 20% longer - so what you didn't wait in almost any line for the 8-9 attractions before it.
    This is assuming that you are able to get Fastpasses for the 8-9 attractions! Likewise for every Fastpass the individual gets they are likely standing in a Standby line somewhere thereby making that one longer. And there is that wonderful time that you have to wait before you can get another Fastpass... so... On a busy day you may only get 3-4 attractions before the window is too far or it is "sold out". At which point my magic question of "What do you do?" comes back to haunt the individual! This is generally sometime between 12 and 130.
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  9. #114

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    This is generally sometime between 12 and 130.
    Oh come on.. you know this isn't the case. This is only true for the top 2 attractions in DL (Space and Indy) and only under the heaviest of days. Plus, DL doesn't really have enough attractions with FP.

    WDW is a bit more realistic example because it doesn't have nearly as many miserable implementations like DLR does, and isn't struggling with supporting FP or not like DLR.

    FP in DLR is way less then what it COULD be.

    and even still.. you've benefited most of the day and they've gotten the psychological reward of riding an attraction multiple times, plus 'not waiting' etc. The amount of psychological benefits you need to 'replace' are just way too many.
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  10. #115

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Fastpass just keeps you busy in another way - by letting you free to move about and multi-task.
    From an operational standpoint, how is this ideal? By sending out droves of people out into the park, you are contributing to traffic issues on the pathways. Think about it, people will flock to the most popular attractions like Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, and IJA continually, even when the ride sells out of Fastpasses. They go to the Faspass distribution center, get their passes, and immediately go back into the park.

    Even if you think dealing with more crowded walkways really isn't a big deal, I think you should give everyone in the park the same opportunity to enjoy the attractions. The people that wait in standby lines do not get to multi-task. They have a comparative advantage to enjoying the park by holding Fastpasses. I think it's rather damaging to exclaim "It's not my fault park guests don't understand how to use the system." Standby lines help absorb park guests, Fastpass lines redirect guests back into the park.

    I truly believe Disney theme parks would function better without FP.
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  11. #116

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomorrowland Tourist View Post
    From an operational standpoint, how is this ideal? By sending out droves of people out into the park, you are contributing to traffic issues on the pathways. Think about it, people will flock to the most popular attractions like Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, and IJA continually, even when the ride sells out of Fastpasses. They go to the Faspass distribution center, get their passes, and immediately go back into the park.
    Those are implementation problems that can be solved (see the message boards at EPCOT that show you if FPs are gone). The space issue again is more a DLR problem then anywhere else. DLR locals fail to separate DLR's problems from Fastpass as a whole and try to throw the baby out with the bath water.
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  12. #117

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Those are implementation problems that can be solved (see the message boards at EPCOT that show you if FPs are gone). The space issue again is more a DLR problem then anywhere else. DLR locals fail to separate DLR's problems from Fastpass as a whole and try to throw the baby out with the bath water.
    So FP makes DL worse than what DL could be? Thanks for agreeing!
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  13. #118

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Oh come on.. you know this isn't the case. This is only true for the top 2 attractions in DL (Space and Indy) and only under the heaviest of days. Plus, DL doesn't really have enough attractions with FP.
    It's actually highly realistic on busy days. Splash, Indy, Space tend to be the "fast ones" and they actually distribute a lot of tickets per 5 minute interval. BLAB and Autopia go at some point... but not nearly as fast. Here's an example

    You get a Fastpass for Indy at 8am... earliest time will be 8:45am to use it. For 45 minutes you will have to "kill time" while others ring in. 8:45am you walk over to Space, conservatively it would be somewhere in the 10-11am range but likely noon or later... So again you have an hour to kill before 10am hits and you can walk somewhere else for a Fastpass. By 1pm most major Fastpasses either have return windows that are too late... or are simply sold out. In my experience most people "give up" when the time to return hits around 10pm.it

    My point is on a busy day, which most days these days have been extremely busy, you are looking at 3... maybe 4 Fastpasses before the return time becomes insane. That very issue prompted the previous Fastpass thread.

    You also have to consider 2 other factors. On Indy, running max, every 72 tickets bumps the return by 5 minutes. That's 72 people per 5 minute interval who are holding a Fastpass who are now standing in another line. Each attraction has x amount per 5 minute but it quickly adds up. So the later the return time, the more tickets, the more time to kill by standing in some other line. After all why stand in line for the attraction you already have a Fastpass for?

    As to the psycological benefit? Is that balanced by the benefit of standing in Standby and watching Fastpass go by? Because this will happen over and over. Most people I find will complain when in Standby, but not think twice about Standby when they use their Fastpass.
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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    ^^I would actually argue that FP should be phased out in ALL Disney parks. Most advocates for the system rely on a revisionist history where people were miserable and could never dream of riding Space Mountain twice in one day, or get to ride the most popular e-tickets in one day.

    There are two simple arguments. First, Fastpass makes standby lines longer, ensuring that those "chumps" who couldn't get a FP wait while an arbitrary ratio is used to ensure FP holders are zipped through the line.

    Second, Fastpass makes the rest of the park busier. Someone who just got off Space Mountain wants to ride Astro Orbitor. If it's midday, the line is probably already long due to a rush of more guests coming into the park. Well, those who have a FP in their hands also get in line, making everything worse.

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  15. #120

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    Re: FastPass - Will Disney Get Rid of It? The Latest Rumor from the Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomorrowland Tourist View Post
    ^^I would actually argue that FP should be phased out in ALL Disney parks. Most advocates for the system rely on a revisionist history where people were miserable and could never dream of riding Space Mountain twice in one day, or get to ride the most popular e-tickets in one day.

    There are two simple arguments. First, Fastpass makes standby lines longer, ensuring that those "chumps" who couldn't get a FP wait while an arbitrary ratio is used to ensure FP holders are zipped through the line.

    Second, Fastpass makes the rest of the park busier. Someone who just got off Space Mountain wants to ride Astro Orbitor. If it's midday, the line is probably already long due to a rush of more guests coming into the park. Well, those who have a FP in their hands also get in line, making everything worse.
    Yep.

    To me the big head-shaker of Fastpass is its underlying come-on: Something for Nothing. Fastpass' psychological appeal is the concept that you, yes you, can go to the head of the line. That you can ride your favorite ride ahead of other people. That you don't have to wait. And that there's no cost, no downside, no problem.

    The unspoken promise of Fastpass is a perfect fit for our times: I Can Be First! None of that hoi polloi first-come-first-served-wait-your-turn stuff, I have a piece of paper that confers privilege! No matter how much data is provided that FP is conceptually flawed and that is harms the overall DL system, I won't believe it, because I know it works for Me!

    (Note: no offense is intended to folks who use Fastpass; my opinion of the psychological attraction of Fastpass is directed at the concept of Fastpass itself, not the people who use it.)



    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 06-01-2009 at 03:11 PM.
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