new dragon broke before the first show. (merged threads)

[Bruce Bergman]

Between Nautilus and Fantasmanatic's posts, it makes sense.

They have TWO lift systems - one huge elevator platform that drops down into the pit - the "same type of hydraulic pipe as the light towers" is a multi-stage hydraulic lift cylinder like they use for freight elevators.

(The multiple stage cylinder is to avoid digging deep pits for the hydraulic cylinder casing. Only have to drill a 10' hole instead of 60' or 80'. And on the light towers the cylinder tucks into a notch in the back of the tower, so they don't have to drill any hole at all past the floor of the main pit.)

And riding on top of the elevator platform is the main workings of the new "Gertrude" that has a seperate set of lift cylinders for raising up past ground level. (But they would need shrouds so you don't see those shiny chromed cylinders exposed.) And a whole bunch of other hydraulics for the head and neck, and wings, and torso movements, and possibly 'legs'.

One hydraulic system for everything is a BIG goof - you want it all compartmentalized so a single failure is isolated. A leak at one point does not stop the whole show, just that one function.

And you want backups on all the critical control and hydraulic lines needed to fold the dragon back up and stow it down in the pit - they can't just "pull the curtain" if something goes wrong, when the house lights come up that dragon has to be gone.

Two sets of totally independent hydraulic systems if you have to - shut down the malfunctioning 'main' system, and the second one is for stowing only.

And the E-stop button should NOT drop all pressure to the AA systems, that is INSANE. What if there was an injured person underneath when they hit the E-stop and it collapsed? What if Mickey was standing there during a live show (he can't move fast) and got clocked like that with 10,000+ people watching in horror?

The Tort Lawyers would have a field day 'capping' for clients in the parking lot.

Stop means STOP, you want the AA to FREEZE IN POSITION right where it is - lock up in pose, not to make any uncontrolled motion at all. Once it stops, then you have a seperate set of Emergency Lower buttons to release pressure on each sub-circuit.

I am trained on a dozen different types of manlifts and bucket trucks - and if they immediately lost pressure and dropped straight down when you hit an E-Stop button I wouldn't use them, far too dangerous. What if you are OVER a fire, or over a downed high tension power line bouncing around on the pavement...?

You open the STOP circuit to make it stop any uncontrolled automatic motions (shorted switch or jammed valve), then have to lower it with a seperate manual system. If you have to rotate or retract the boom to get down safely, someone's going to have to either work the ground controls or crank it around by hand.

Originally Posted by techskip

Due to the fact that is in considered a "workplace accident" I would think it would fall under OSHA, but since it isn't attractions... does it fall under DOSH? Second part of the question... would it then have to be inspected/certified by the state?

It's definitely one or the other, possibly a third - Elevator Inspection might want a piece of the action too, since it's probably permitted (in part at least) as a Stage Elevator. And if not that one, the next pit to the west certainly qualifies, where the Queen drops on one stage elevator and the Hag pops up behind her on a second. They may not have a cab and doors, but they have to meet the other Man-Rated qualifications to be ridden or have a person in close proximity.

Either way, they are going to have to file at least one official government report on this. Whether Disney can keep it locked up from a properly issued FOIA request is an interesting question - they might actually come clean first on their own rather than find out if someone could force the issue.


In closing, let's remember they got really lucky - someone didn't have to die for them to figure out they have a safety problem. And they are going to get it fixed.

--<< Bruce >>--

[techskip]

I just wanted to add this real quick. I joked a lot about duct tape prior to the second hand reports. I don't care if it takes all Summer (it would suck but I'm serious), I want it fixed right. I'm sorry if some reading this are vacationing tourists... but I would rather know the thing is fixed correctly and safely... instead of a rush job that Disney did just to get the dragon turned around quickly. As Bruce said, Disney got lucky. An accident like that could have seriously injured, or killed someone... my hope is that Disney goes over everything with a fine tooth comb and calls in any expert necessary to get this done right.

[sailerm]

Steve Martin - Pretty Flowers

[AidensDaddy]

Rumor has it that Pete's Dragon from the Electrical Parade will be doing part time fill ins for the Fantasmic! dragon.

[jett]

Originally Posted by Mac Daddy

If WDI didn't design such a high tech animatronic system, what exactly ARE they doing over there? WHY didn't that project go to WDI??

Just a guess, but I would think that WDI does the basic design and then outsources the detailed design and fabrication. With something so complicated, it probably wouldn't make sense for Disney to invest in specialized equipment and training to build such a complex AA that would only happen once every 5 years.

I would think that it's like how Imagineering might design a building on Main Street, but "outsources" the work to a construction company. Makes more sense to "outsource" then Disney owning a fleet of construction equipment and an army of workers

Like I said, just a total guess.

[Skipper S]

So I was close something in the neck did break and the head did fall (just not off). Well if you were there and saw it happen you would see it as it was first reported. thanks for the update I have been very busy and have had no time to find out.

[Bruce Bergman]

Originally Posted by jett

Just a guess, but I would think that WDI does the basic design and then outsources the detailed design and fabrication. With something so complicated, it probably wouldn't make sense for Disney to invest in specialized equipment and training to build such a complex AA that would only happen once every 5 years.

I would think that it's like how Imagineering might design a building on Main Street, but "outsources" the work to a construction company. Makes more sense to "outsource" then Disney owning a fleet of construction equipment and an army of workers

Like I said, just a total guess.

Well, they USED TO do it all in house to control costs - that way they didn't have to pay someone to re-learn what WDI had long ago figured out, they could build on knowledge already gained and learn to run and then fly, instead of having each generation learn how to walk again.

And the true Imagineers with the specialty knowledge would go on to other projects in house and could transfer that detailed knowledge to them. Then all aspects and crafts got the benefit of cross-education from other fields that can be Very Useful.

Plumber's little tricks can come in handy when doing Hydraulics, and vice versa - it's all in controlling liquids, whether it's water or oil the same basics apply.

And someone who has had Hands On experience building things will know how to design them to be easy to build, easy to repair and easy to maintain - something most engineers have a really hard time grasping. So they do a wonderful design where you have to dismantle half the ride to change the oil filters or swap out a balky valve.

And the control systems are a PITA to diagnose and repair, because the designer has never tried to troubleshoot one - there are many tricks to make it a lot faster and easier. Real simple stuff like pilot lights in one place and organized in a logical fashion so you can see at a glance what is (or is not) happening.

But now all the Engineers work from project contract to project contract, and are often let go for indefinite time periods when their work is done - and now they get to take that experience gained and go hire on at a competitor...

So the next time WDI needs Engineers with knowledge in that specialty, all the people that know it best are working at the competition and are not going to be available for several months, if ever. They are under contract for other jobs, or have gotten permanent staff positions. Or they started their own company, and you have to outsource the project to get them.

Is this any way to run a railroad??

--<< Bruce >>--

[Mr Wiggins]

IIRC the construction of the original Mark Twain hull, Columbia, Autopia car fleet, sub fleet and Monorail were all contracted out.

Of course, the contractors were supervised by an entirely different set of people (Bob Gurr, for example) than today's WDI.

[bfdf55]

Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins

IIRC the construction of the original Mark Twain hull, Columbia, Autopia car fleet, sub fleet and Monorail were all contracted out.

Of course, the contractors were supervised by an entirely different set of people (Bob Gurr, for example) than today's WDI.

In those situations, the work was outsourced to competent companies that were experts in their fields. Many of the concepts that Imagineering comes up with have no comparable expert outside companies capable of dealing with them.


Even some of the more "simple" designs, like Toon Town, can't be adequately produced by most experienced outside contractors without having significant creative oversight by the Imagineers.

[DisneyLD]

Originally Posted by techskip

I just wanted to add this real quick. I joked a lot about duct tape prior to the second hand reports.

I have to say you went a little over-board on the duct tape joke and it got old fast. I'm glad you apologized (kinda), but then again whoever believed Disney would use such method as a fix is pretty gullible, haha.
Plus, Gaff tape is a lot stronger than duct tape and leaves no sticky residue.

Also, I wanted to point out that being a Theatre Technician is high up in the "Dangerous Jobs" list. If you think about it, temporarily rigging, objects weighing thousands of pounds hanging above people's heads, light equipment ranging from 10lbs to 100-200 lbs hanging above, heights ranging from 20-100ft, working in the dark..etc..etc..

[Mommyto4]

So besides all the chatter and speculation here , does anyone know when it will be fixed and running ?

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by Mommyto4

So besides all the chatter and speculation here , does anyone know when it will be fixed and running ?

July 4th at the earliest, but there's no guarantee of that.

[techskip]

I sprinkled a few duct tape comments throughout the threads (prior to merge). This was also prior to knowing how serious the issue truely was. At that point the joking stopped.

Originally Posted by DisneyLD

whoever believed Disney would use such method as a fix is pretty gullible, haha.

While in this situation it would be impractical... you'd be shocked to see how many repair jobs involve a combination of zip ties and duct tape... and a lot of "temporary" fixes... weren't. The recent history of Facilities is littered with rushed repair jobs that either didn't work or made the problem worse. I don't care if you blame Facilities, or Management who pushed to have things "fixed"... but I knew many Leads who had to stand for Safety when no one else would!

Plus, Gaff tape is a lot stronger than duct tape and leaves no sticky residue.

We're getting side tracked here but... I've used gaff, cheap duct (big no no), decent grade duct (much better), HVAC rated duct, and Military Air Transport grade duct (similar to gaff but better adherence to metal under extreme temperatures... That said gaff works great on most surfaces, and decently on metal. Military tends to hold up the best but outside of the service costs a small fortune (assuming you can find it). Decent grade duct tape gets the job done without killing the pocketbook, as long as your intention is to bind and not unwind (as we've all said it will leave glue in place when pulled off).

Also, I wanted to point out that being a Theatre Technician is high up in the "Dangerous Jobs" list. If you think about it, temporarily rigging, objects weighing thousands of pounds hanging above people's heads, light equipment ranging from 10lbs to 100-200 lbs hanging above, heights ranging from 20-100ft, working in the dark..etc..etc..

There are plenty of jobs that many of us do and/or have done on a daily basis that are/were under less then ideal circumstances. Having been in some of the most interesting situations life can throw at a person I've learned to laugh about it after the fact. At the time it is never funny... afterwards it becomes a great story of "don't do this".

[Bruce Bergman]

Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins

IIRC the construction of the original Mark Twain hull, Columbia, Autopia car fleet, sub fleet and Monorail were all contracted out. Of course, the contractors were supervised by an entirely different set of people (Bob Gurr, for example) than today's WDI.

That was work sent out to specialist companies that Disney really doesn't want to learn their jobs.

The List (from memory...) The Autopia cars were partly Arrow Dynamics for the powertrain, and Bob Gurr figured out the huck-bolted chassis so it wouldn't crack and fall apart on a regular basis.

The Submarine hulls, the base Mark Twain and Columbia hulls, and a bunch of other things that float were sent to Todd Shipyards in Long Beach.

The Mark Twain and DLRR Engine #1 and #2 boilers were sent to Dixon Boiler Works in Los Angeles. And they have built several replacement boilers for Park Stuff over the years.

A lot of the recent boiler repair work was sent to Paul Boschan of Boschan Boiler.

Now the Monorail was a mess, since they sent it to a Canadian composites specialist who hasn't done a lot of Monorails that I know of. And it's been a comedy of errors getting them running right - but that looks like most of the problem was with the plans WDI drew up and sent to the builder...

I'd love to know if they even asked Bombardier to bid on the rebuild - the company who built the current WDW fleet, the Las Vegas Monorail fleet, and Monorail Trains for several other systems around the globe.

Originally Posted by DisneyLD

I have to say you went a little over-board on the duct tape joke and it got old fast. I'm glad you apologized (kinda), but then again whoever believed Disney would use such method as a fix is pretty gullible, haha.
Plus, Gaff tape is a lot stronger than duct tape and leaves no sticky residue.

Sometimes Gaff Tape actually is a good repair - just not for anything structural. If it's just a tear in the wallpaper, or a scrim falling off a frame... Gaff Tape to the Rescue! That's why it's a matte finish in many colors, precisely so it blends in.

For structural repairs, you first reinforce or weld the item back in position, restore the mechanical strength - that's why my comments veered more towards Angle Iron, Chains and Clamps, and a bunch of Gorilla Welds. (Just glop it on till it gets hot enough to stick.)

Once you have it back in position and nailed/bolted/welded together, then you use the Gaff Tape and cloth wraps and a bit of spray paint to hide the repair from the audience. That buys you a few days to make a new part and swap it out overnight when it's ready.

Originally Posted by DisneyLD

Also, I wanted to point out that being a Theatre Technician is high up in the "Dangerous Jobs" list. If you think about it, temporarily rigging, objects weighing thousands of pounds hanging above people's heads, light equipment ranging from 10lbs to 100-200 lbs hanging above, heights ranging from 20-100ft, working in the dark..etc..etc..

Hey, Electrician is only a notch or two down on the list. The same heights and hazards, plus they expect you to stick your hands in places that are still energized. Which is where Lineman's Gloves come in.

And when one of your customers has a whole batch of troublesome Strand SL Ellipticals nailed to the ceiling as picture lights, you get flashbacks to High School Stage Crew, and remember why the rest of the industry uses ETC Source Four's and won't touch Strand fixtures...

Of course some of those HS theatres still had Carbon Pile or Autotransformer Dimmers and Live-Front Patchbays that were inside a cage for a reason - stick your fingers in the wrong place and you'll have a real wild hairdo for Picture Day...

--<< Bruce >>--

[Mr Wiggins]

Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman

The List (from memory...) The Autopia cars were partly Arrow Dynamics for the powertrain, and Bob Gurr figured out the huck-bolted chassis so it wouldn't crack and fall apart on a regular basis.

The Submarine hulls, the base Mark Twain and Columbia hulls, and a bunch of other things that float were sent to Todd Shipyards in Long Beach.

The Mark Twain and DLRR Engine #1 and #2 boilers were sent to Dixon Boiler Works in Los Angeles. And they have built several replacement boilers for Park Stuff over the years.

A lot of the recent boiler repair work was sent to Paul Boschan of Boschan Boiler.

Hey, pretty good memory! Some time back, Tim over at Vintage Disneyland Tickets posted a '55-'56 magazine article that mentioned the guys who Bob Gurr contracted the Autopia frame & body fab to... but danged if I can remember who they were, or when Tim posted it. (If I can find it I'll post it. If I don't forget, that is!)

EDIT: Found it... Tim's posting from July, 2008 entitled "A Look at Autopia in Print - 1955" at vintagedisneylandtickets.blogspot.com/2008/07/look-at-autopia-in-print-1955.html. Great articles from Hot Rod, Rod & Custom and Road and Track magazines, all packed with photos.

The Hot Rod piece (October 1955) says Bob Gurr called in Johnny Hartman of Hartman Engineering in Montrose to develop the prototype Autopia chassis and drive layout. The first fleet of 40 cars were constructed by Glasspar in Costa Mesa, and tested by Mameco Engineering of Newport Beach. Sounds like the days when contracting out a job was more like a partnership -- back when "the way to run a railroad" was to do it with people who not only knew each other, but knew what they were doing as well.