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  1. #16

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Or maybe that they weren't aware they were needed so badly. The oft quoted comment does not say he disregarded safety, it explains why he didn't have the windows in the design.

    Big difference between 'communication failure' and 'intentionally disregarding safety'
    I might be inclined to agree with the idea of "communication failure" but with everything else that has gone wrong with the new trains it's hard to believe it wasn't something more.

  2. #17

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    Hey, if they need windows to see out the side and check where the other train is, they need them. And tinted windows blend in with the paint job sufficiently, I don't think it's an issue at all - well, except for cost. They saved a bundle by deleting the windows.

    Besides, weren't those windows OPENABLE? Might be nice to get air if you are stuck out over the lagoon with the beam power off, and therefore No AC, can't open the door because you have Guests in the nosecone that might fall out...

    As you stated in the other thread, we expect better - We used to get our socks knocked off through our shoes... (Gee, wouldja look at the holes?) These trains are an example of Modern WDI - 'Declining By Degrees' instead of learning from the past and improving on the previous generation.

    --<< Bruce >>--
    I think Bruce got it right. The need to save a few bucks seems to override a lot things at DL lately.

  3. #18

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Side windows didn't prevent WDW's accident...

    Frankly, I think the danger is being overstated here. I suspect this is an example of how an isolated incident slowly morphs into an unfounded hysteria.
    .


  4. #19

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    I thought WDW's accident was a human error mostly on the part of Monorail Central... I don't know the whole story, nor do I really want to, but if that's the case then how are side windows gonna change things?

  5. #20

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by Code90 View Post
    Whatever you call it, it's ignorance which resulted in disregard to safety.
    While I agree the windows are needed I feel this is an overstatement. The designer may not have been aware of the purpose of the side windows. His comment was that it didn't "look right" and as a designer that is specifically what he was doing... designing a new look. He specifically can not be blamed for the decision to cut the windows unless he was previously aware of their intended safety purpose and raised no objection to their removal. Likewise all designs need to be signed off by multiple individuals before they are finalized... so someone, somewhere on that chain either never bothered to ask or didn't raise an objection.

    Considering the multiple issues that the new Monorails have had... it has become clear that multiple individuals "did not do their homework" in a variety of areas. The new design may look "sleek" but the physical window design (which was compliments of Legal) turned the cars into cookers. The clearance wasn't there, no room for A/C... the list goes on. There will always be "bugs", smart people learn to expect them and try to plan around them. Ask NASA, they learned a LOT about "bugs" and the difference between "should" and "will".
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  6. #21

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Seems to me that if the pilots think it is a safety issue, then it should be addressed.

  7. #22

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Don't the new trains have a camera that's pointed down the side of the Monorail too?

  8. #23

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by BoogaFrito View Post
    Side windows didn't prevent WDW's accident...

    Frankly, I think the danger is being overstated here. I suspect this is an example of how an isolated incident slowly morphs into an unfounded hysteria.
    Nothing is being overstated. If someone took something such as the side mirrors off your car and said you're not going to need those, would you say "I need those to drive safely" or "No big deal... I didn't need them anyway"?

    Could you drive your car without your side mirrors? Yes. Could you drive more safely with them? Yes. Is it worth it for WDI to correct their oversight? Yes.

    Of course, we are talking about something different than mirrors here, but you get the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    While I agree the windows are needed I feel this is an overstatement. The designer may not have been aware of the purpose of the side windows. His comment was that it didn't "look right" and as a designer that is specifically what he was doing... designing a new look. He specifically can not be blamed for the decision to cut the windows unless he was previously aware of their intended safety purpose and raised no objection to their removal. Likewise all designs need to be signed off by multiple individuals before they are finalized... so someone, somewhere on that chain either never bothered to ask or didn't raise an objection.

    Considering the multiple issues that the new Monorails have had... it has become clear that multiple individuals "did not do their homework" in a variety of areas. The new design may look "sleek" but the physical window design (which was compliments of Legal) turned the cars into cookers. The clearance wasn't there, no room for A/C... the list goes on. There will always be "bugs", smart people learn to expect them and try to plan around them. Ask NASA, they learned a LOT about "bugs" and the difference between "should" and "will".
    That's the problem... WDI did not consult Disneyland on their design. They did not even talk to the very people who would be maintaining the trains. If they had, there would have been plenty of objection to go around. When Monorail Red arrived, the facilities crew was shocked at the poorly designed monorails that they were now responsible for.

    As for all the other issues you listed... Those are things that could have been addressed had WDI done their homework and consulted the same team of people who would be running and maintaining the trains.

    That being said, WDI should be held accountable for this oversight given that it is a safety issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Don't the new trains have a camera that's pointed down the side of the Monorail too?
    Yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with visual clearance when approaching a station. They're actually less useful than the mirrors that were there on the Mark Vs.

  9. #24

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    How far back in the cabin is the console that the operator can only see dead forward? The windows wrap around pretty far.
    The console is way back, and up a bit. Like roughly even with the door, AFAICT - the Bubble section is all Guest seating for times when Guests are allowed in the nose cone.

    The Pilot seat is a fixed seating position and there is a Deadman Switch so he has to stay there during operations or the train goes into E-Stop - it's not like the Pilot could put the train in Cruise Control, get out of his seat, walk into the nosecone and look out the side of the bubble window to see where the other train is.

    Well, he could - but he'd have to stop the train first, or it would stop itself and fast... Which kind of ruins the whole idea.

    If the Driver can visually confirm that the other train has progressed past the station while he's a few minutes out, he doesn't have to worry about coming round the last bend and having to stop short and hold. And if the other train IS still in the station, he can slow down on those last few loops and give the other train time to leave before he gets to that last turn and has to hold.

    The FIRST RULE of industrial design when you are upgrading or replacing an existing system like an assembly line or a transportation system is for the Architects and Engineers to do a complete ergonomic and workflow study of the existing system. Find out what operating functions and design details must be carried for ward into the next generation system, what needs to be added, and what can be safely removed. Study any repetitive motion injuries or accidents that are happening, find any bottlenecks in product flow that cause lost product, etc., and modify the systems to eliminate the root causes.

    WDI Report Card on the Mk. VIII Monorails at DL - Fail. Repeatedly. Windows in the Nosecone car for track visibility ahead, windows in the passenger coaches, ventilation in all the cabins, track clearance issues that they had to modify the platforms and obstructing items to fix...

    And if I was privy to all the internal scuttle(tuchis) between Monorail Ops and WDI, I could probably carry this list on for two or three more paragraphs. When three things leak out, that means there were thirty that didn't.

    (It's Yiddish, look it up. The MPAA let Mel Brooks use it all over the place in Blazing Saddles, and that was PG.)

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  10. #25

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    WDI Report Card on the Mk. VIII Monorails at DL - Fail. Repeatedly. Windows in the Nosecone car for track visibility ahead, windows in the passenger coaches, ventilation in all the cabins, track clearance issues that they had to modify the platforms and obstructing items to fix...
    Details, details. The important thing is that they look so... so... golly, so totally awesome!




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  11. #26

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    It certainly was a misguided project. Hopefully WDI actually learned something and someone get the crap beat out of them for a rollout that took basically a year to get even operational and who knows at what expense. The fact that Red is down already is just mindboggling... unless they skipped work in the overhaul and that work is what made it due (so its running time was much longer then the 9+ months it was out). And I don't want to hear it was because it was running more often then it should have. That only means the design duty cycle was still less then 3 years for a major overhaul - which sounds aweful short.
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  12. #27

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    It certainly was a misguided project. Hopefully WDI actually learned something and someone get the crap beat out of them for a rollout that took basically a year to get even operational and who knows at what expense.
    Its funny you say that because at the D23 event last night, Bob Gurr was there and said that the first time the monorail came out, they had 2 weeks to test and get it ready. The mark VII took nearly a year to get it fully operational...

  13. #28

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by Code90 View Post
    Nothing is being overstated. If someone took something such as the side mirrors off your car and said you're not going to need those, would you say "I need those to drive safely" or "No big deal... I didn't need them anyway"?
    Cars change lanes. They turn corners. They merge with perpendicular traffic. Car drivers are surrounded by other drivers they do not know and have no way of communicating with. They are not linked by a central command center. They are not on a track.

    The car analogy just doesn't work here. Trying to conflate the two is an example of the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Don't the new trains have a camera that's pointed down the side of the Monorail too?
    Isn't all they would need be a closed-circuit camera in both stations, with a monitor in each monorail?
    .


  14. #29

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    The side windows give the pilot the ability to visually verify that the other train has cleared the station etc.. see Bruce's quote below. Additionally as Primus mentioned earlier it allows the pilots to see hand signals from the platform.

    The cameras don't give the pilots a perpendicular view so it would appear they are not helpful in this situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post

    If the Driver can visually confirm that the other train has progressed past the station while he's a few minutes out, he doesn't have to worry about coming round the last bend and having to stop short and hold. And if the other train IS still in the station, he can slow down on those last few loops and give the other train time to leave before he gets to that last turn and has to hold.

    The FIRST RULE of industrial design when you are upgrading or replacing an existing system like an assembly line or a transportation system is for the Architects and Engineers to do a complete ergonomic and workflow study of the existing system. Find out what operating functions and design details must be carried for ward into the next generation system, what needs to be added, and what can be safely removed. Study any repetitive motion injuries or accidents that are happening, find any bottlenecks in product flow that cause lost product, etc., and modify the systems to eliminate the root causes.

    WDI Report Card on the Mk. VIII Monorails at DL - Fail. Repeatedly. Windows in the Nosecone car for track visibility ahead, windows in the passenger coaches, ventilation in all the cabins, track clearance issues that they had to modify the platforms and obstructing items to fix...

    And if I was privy to all the internal scuttle(tuchis) between Monorail Ops and WDI, I could probably carry this list on for two or three more paragraphs. When three things leak out, that means there were thirty that didn't.

    (It's Yiddish, look it up. The MPAA let Mel Brooks use it all over the place in Blazing Saddles, and that was PG.)

    --<< Bruce >>--
    Last edited by Fortune Cookie; 07-19-2009 at 09:58 AM. Reason: spelling

  15. #30

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    Re: Monorail Safety and WDI

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanvalle View Post
    Its funny you say that because at the D23 event last night, Bob Gurr was there and said that the first time the monorail came out, they had 2 weeks to test and get it ready. The mark VII took nearly a year to get it fully operational...
    Good old Bob... quick to point out the obvious! I love it...

    The few times I've met him I always ended up laughing. Once he discovered I was a Jungle Skip the "game was up". He'd talk about a little bit of everything and comment on how WDI needs a healthy dose of "common sense".
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