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  1. #46

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    I assume you mean WEDway PeopleMover.
    I assume that's wrong, based on monorail capacity vs. tramzilla capacity issues, I think individual PeopleMover trains with 8-12 people on board would number in the thousands to get all those families back to their cars.

  2. #47

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    I assume that's wrong, based on monorail capacity vs. tramzilla capacity issues, I think individual PeopleMover trains with 8-12 people on board would number in the thousands to get all those families back to their cars.
    I believe the PM could load something like 4,000 people an hour......a slightly larger and modernized version of it with off-line capabilities probably could get that number up to 6,000+.
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  3. #48

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Trams hold more capacity, but can only load in spurts. A continous system would load... continuously. It's capacity is only limited by the time to travel the distance.

    To be effective, the system would have to move faster then a traditional peoplemover, which leads to questions like multi-segmented systems or detachable systems (like a ski lift).

    5mph or so will take a long time to get there.. compared to trams which can go much faster. Anyone who travels and uses the moving sidewalks in long airport tunnels knows it makes the walk easier, but it still takes ages to get to your destination
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  4. #49

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Trams hold more capacity, but can only load in spurts. A continuous system would load... continuously. It's capacity is only limited by the time to travel the distance.
    No, a continuous system has a FIXED capacity per hour based on the amount of seating and/or standing room available on the vehicles.

    Trams can easily change its hourly capacity. Disney has 4 tram loading stations at both the DtD and Parking Structure. During slow times, they use one station, very busy times, they use all 4, plus they can stack they system by having trams waiting for an empty load/unload station.

    For example, the Disneyland Peoplemover in Tomorrowland had about 1,000 people per hour capacity. If 3,000 people want to ride it at the same time, then the ride with start with a 3 hour long queue. If there is only 500 people that want to ride in a hour, then some vehicles get dispatched empty.

    And with a Theme Park parking lot, you need to look at the trends in when folks want to use the transportation. Heavy Volume in the Morning and at the end of the day, and light volume in the middle of the day.

    So you need to build some sort of continuous transportation that is over 5,000 guests an hour to handle the peak times. (And take into consideration that the big people eaters such as Pirates and Haunted Mansion can only handle about 2,000 per hour). Lofty goals, and I would love to see something that can handle it, but I don't see it happening.

    Also another problem with a continuous system, breakdowns. If you have one circle system, then when one vehicle goes down, the entire system goes down.

    With Trams, Buses or light rail, you have multiple tracks/roadways, and if one vehicle goes down, then the other vehicles just use the other track/roadway to bypass the broken vehicle. Yes, it does slow down the hourly capacity, but you are still up and running, unlike when the Monorail is down, and they post CM's at the DtD entrance to direct folks to walk to the Main Entrance Plaza.
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  5. #50

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Let me add, even the "Simple" solution I mentioned earlier, a Bridge with a ramp that is ADA acceptable (not too steep) has a maximum capacity per hour.

    You have to look at the width of the pathway, and how fast the average person will walk, both in the level segments, and the angled ramp, which will have a slower average speed, at least on the way up the ramp.

    But it would be fairly easy to come up with a width that could handle 7,000 people per hour, which should be the maximum needed capacity for the Parking Structure. Thinking of New Years Eve, when you would have the largest amount of people at one time (when the Midnight event is over). Heck, Disney stops running trams that evening and just uses the tramway as a sidewalk due to the large amount of folks leaving at the same time. Same as for CHOC Walk this Sunday morning, too many folks showing up between 5:30 and 6:30 AM to enter the park, so they just convert the tramway to a walkway.

    No way you can do that with something like a Peoplemover.
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  6. #51

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    For example, the Disneyland Peoplemover in Tomorrowland had about 1,000 people per hour capacity.
    Are you sure about that(I mean, c'mon, even the subs can do almost a 1,000 per hour and the PM surely has a much higher capacity than the underwater adventure)......?


    Every PM train could carry 16 people....1,000/16 = 62.5.....surely the PM was loading more than one train every minute.

    I think you are getting it's total capacity confused with it's per hour capability.

    http://www.peopleforthepeoplemover.org/info/
    Last edited by sleepyjeff; 10-15-2009 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Keep thinking of more reasons the PM couldn't possibly have had anything less than 4,000 per hour cap.
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  7. #52

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    No, a continuous system has a FIXED capacity per hour based on the amount of seating and/or standing room available on the vehicles.
    Yes and no - you took my text out of its intended context.

    The system can be DESIGNED to any throughput, limited only by how long it takes to traverse the route. You can make cars bigger, smaller, whatever. But the big factor will always be the cycle time.

    Yes, once that design is done, the throughput is fixed within that design. But the point was what you can design too is limited most by cycle time. A long slow route = lower throughput.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    For example, the Disneyland Peoplemover in Tomorrowland had about 1,000 people per hour capacity. If 3,000 people want to ride it at the same time, then the ride with start with a 3 hour long queue. If there is only 500 people that want to ride in a hour, then some vehicles get dispatched empty.
    But people do not show up 3,000 at a time. They come in throttled by how fast they can get through whatever system is before them. be it parking, exit gates, etc. Part of the reason for the backup today is the load cycle.

    Certainly having dynamic capacity is a value add, but it is not a free one either and must be managed. A high capacity system to start with has economic advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    Also another problem with a continuous system, breakdowns. If you have one circle system, then when one vehicle goes down, the entire system goes down.
    True - and probably the biggest factor. But we also know the right system can be HIGHLY reliable and the risk can be mitigated to reasonable service levels (note how many airports have single track systems, etc). And there is always the backup buses, etc.
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  8. #53

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    5,000 people per hour is 84 people per minute being loaded into seats.

    One half of the station was for unload. The second half was for load.

    You had 4 car trains, with 4 seats per car, so 16 maximum seats, but many cases, the cars left with 2 or 3 guests due to the size of the group.

    And while they maybe had one time at the beginning when they could load 6 trains a minute (one every 10 seconds), by 1995, they were lucky if they could load 3 trains per minute. And yes, Peoplemovers did back up waiting to enter the Load/unload station. And now with ADA laws, you will have to load wheelchairs and folks with other issues that require them to walk slower, use handrails and other devices to help board a vehicle. If you have a TRUE single track circular system, you will end up with the same issues as the Haunted mansion, when you have to either slow down, or completely stop the system to allow someone to enter and then later, exit the vehicle.

    Now, you have some solutions already used in the park, such as the separate loading stations for GRR and Space Mountain. But what type of capacity do those attractions have. Have you seen the long wait for Wheelchair loading at Space Mountain? They can only handle one vehicle in the Extra Assistance mode, mainly for safety, as if the ride breaks down, they have to find a way to evacuate the guests from the vehicle. (Slightly Off Topic, but helps drive a point home, Journey to Atlantis at SWSD has a special wheelchair designed for the first lift hill, basically the back legs are much longer than the front legs, so the person stays fairly level as they go down the emergency exit ramp.)

    Why do you think Disney offers both Trams and special ADA Vans at busy times? The traditional trams can handle a few wheelchairs, but it slows down the entire system, and cannot handle the volume at peak times. So the Vans add additional capacity for those folks needing some additional assistance. And that can load and unload at a more leisurely pace, as they use areas for load and unload that are not used by the Trams.
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  9. #54

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post


    But people do not show up 3,000 at a time.
    Even if they did, it wouldn't be a 3 hour wait......since the PM really had a capacity 4,000+ and since even that can surely be expanded with modern 21st century technology the wait would be less than 45 minutes....probably a lot less.
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  10. #55

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post

    True - and probably the biggest factor. But we also know the right system can be HIGHLY reliable and the risk can be mitigated to reasonable service levels (note how many airports have single track systems, etc). And there is always the backup buses, etc.
    So now you expect Disney to build a very expensive system, and then pay for a Backup system. In this day and age, don't expect Disney to pay for 2 systems. If buses work and more reliable, then you get buses. (Heck, look at WDW).

    But if Disney expects people to walk from Simba, why not just build the bridge over Harbor and have folks walk to the park?

    Place some speakers on the bridge playing Disney themed music, heck, even steal an idea from Universal and even place some ads in the soundtrack, such as ticket specials and other suggestions to help sell Tickets in the AM hours, and then ads featuring upcoming events in the evening, to try and entice folks to come back to the parks.

    Maybe some ads and banners to help entertain folks during the walk.

    But in the current day and age, I am willing to bet a dinner or two that the bridge and/or a bus system is what will be offered once the new Pumbaa Parking Structure is opened. Disney won't go for the extra MAJOR expenses.
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  11. #56

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    I've NEVER seen them use all 4 tram loading stations at DtD. 3 yes ... but NEVER 4. Not even on NYE.


  12. #57

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    So keep the vans.

    The reason why Space and others are so bad is because the person needs to transfer. If the vehicle did not require special ramps to load or transfer then the problem is dramatically reduced.

    I don't see a problem with the pace of entering the park being more leisurely and the ability to add more anticipation to the experience. Look at the MK, all in/out is regulated by the transport to the park.

    And if more people are discouraged from riding their ECV everywhere... more power to it.
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  13. #58

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    And now with ADA laws, you will have to load wheelchairs and folks with other issues that require them to walk slower, use handrails and other devices to help board a vehicle. If you have a TRUE single track circular system, you will end up with the same issues as the Haunted mansion, when you have to either slow down, or completely stop the system to allow someone to enter and then later, exit the vehicle.
    Clearly, if they do use a PM system it would have to have off-line capability for stroller and wheelchair guests, a wider track so maybe it could seat 3 across, and just as they do on the trams and monorails, make sure every seat is used(no private cars for 2 or 3 people) during peak use times.
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  14. #59

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    So now you expect Disney to build a very expensive system, and then pay for a Backup system. In this day and age, don't expect Disney to pay for 2 systems. If buses work and more reliable, then you get buses. (Heck, look at WDW).
    Disney already has contingency methods in place. They aren't adding anything here.

    I never said this system would be the most economical - we were talking about the practicality of how to move people. The DL monorail is a pathetic transportation system, yet Disney invested to expand it into DCA and DTD. Sometimes show does win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    But in the current day and age, I am willing to bet a dinner or two that the bridge and/or a bus system is what will be offered once the new Pumbaa Parking Structure is opened. Disney won't go for the extra MAJOR expenses.
    I already said the same thing earlier in the thread. The bridges are the most likely way, as long as the city would allow them.
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  15. #60

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    Re: Bigger Parking Structure ... How are they going to get people across Harbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    To be effective, the system would have to move faster then a traditional peoplemover, which leads to questions like multi-segmented systems or detachable systems (like a ski lift).
    Wow, what a great idea!
    Quote Originally Posted by sediment, post #5 View Post
    Tunnel-under peoplemover, with room for one stroller in each carriage.
    I'd also like them to be like detachable chair lifts, in which during loading and unloading the carriages are slower moving, but between those times, the carriages run 25mph or so.
    I'm glad I thought of it!
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