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  1. #46

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    The article was from Nov. 2001. The public had not adopted anything by that time.

    And, yes, where the zones are will have a huge impact on whether noise traveling in a certain direction will be a problem--sound travels in waves, and all that.

    It was probably too expensive to make or maintain clear tubes, or they just loved that d*** teal too much in the late '90s. Any number of stylistic choices may have been made.

    Anyway, I have provided vastly more evidentiary support than is necessary for this thread, and for all the quips about Wikipedia, you are asking for significantly more research than you have offered with your posts (frankly, it's a netiquette no-no to impugn someone's references without providing links of your own).

    I think it's time we brought this back to the focus of the thread, which is incorporating the sound requirements into a more appealing design.
    If I cant use wikipedia at university, why should uncited refrences in Wikipedia be vaild here? I can definitly "shoot it down". That second refrence is much better than the Wiki one but I still hold my belief that they are for vision blocking.

  2. #47

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    In California we have something called the "California Environmental Quality Act" (CEQA, pronounced "see-qua"). The result of this law is that development projects must identify potential environmental impacts. An impact is identified - for example - the sound of screaming guests on a roller coaster being heard in a residential neighborhood next to the development. If the impact is large enough it must be mitigated. In this case screams are mitigated with 'scream shields' on the roller coaster preventing screams from traveling in the direction of the neighborhoods next door.

    That is an oversimplification of a very long process that involves scoping, public meetings, feedback, rewrites and eventual certification of the Environmental Impact Report. This all has to happen *prior* to the development being approved. If someone wants to search through Anaheim documents and meeting minutes from the mid/late 90's that would be the place to find out for sure why the shields are in place.

  3. #48

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    This isnt directed at you 24601 (welcome here ), so dont feel that it is in any way.

    Here is where I sigh, look aimlessly at my computer and state that I don't actually think that the "scream tubes" are in no way for sound suppression, even though in my argument It may have sounded that way (even though I tried to make it prominent that it was most likely that their design was to block views, and other purposes were not out of the question). I do however belive that their overall design was indeed affected by the desire to block views of urban LA which would detract from the asthetic of the ride.

  4. #49

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    This isnt directed at you 24601 (welcome here ), so dont feel that it is in any way.

    Here is where I sigh, look aimlessly at my computer and state that I don't actually think that the "scream tubes" are in no way for sound suppression, even though in my argument It may have sounded that way (even though I tried to make it prominent that it was most likely that their design was to block views, and other purposes were not out of the question). I do however belive that their overall design was indeed affected by the desire to block views of urban LA which would detract from the asthetic of the ride.
    I might find that more plausible if they hadn't done such a miserable job of hiding urban LA during the rest of the course of the coaster (simple thought experiment: why is the view fairly unobstructed, with only an open fence, on the upward side of the hill over the Mickey/sun, but the descent--when people are screaming--is covered? The view to the side is the same whether you're going up or down).

    All that said, this is a design thread with a specific design focus on incorporating the noise-limiting requirements. Screamin's failure to address the visual isolation of the park (a sad theme of DCA 1.0) is somewhat related and is a consideration that we can take into account in our designs, but probably merits its own thread.

    In other news, I finally saw your concept art--for some reason the image hadn't been showing up before. I like the style, but I don't think it's the most suitable structure for supporting a scream tube...I think the colonnade does that more successfully. But, I think the arches would be useful to further Victorianize (not a word, I know!) the attraction, and would help prevent the scream tubes from sticking out like a sore thumb like they do now, as they are the only things above the track. Your archways, combined with the fence or lattice that professortango described, would go very nicely with the colonnade, further theme the attraction, and help with the views.

  5. #50

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I might find that more plausible if they hadn't done such a miserable job of hiding urban LA during the rest of the course of the coaster (simple thought experiment: why is the view fairly unobstructed, with only an open fence, on the upward side of the hill over the Mickey/sun, but the descent--when people are screaming--is covered? The view to the side is the same whether you're going up or down).

    All that said, this is a design thread with a specific design focus on incorporating the noise-limiting requirements. Screamin's failure to address the visual isolation of the park (a sad theme of DCA 1.0) is somewhat related and is a consideration that we can take into account in our designs, but probably merits its own thread.

    In other news, I finally saw your concept art--for some reason the image hadn't been showing up before. I like the style, but I don't think it's the most suitable structure for supporting a scream tube...I think the colonnade does that more successfully. But, I think the arches would be useful to further Victorianize (not a word, I know!) the attraction, and would help prevent the scream tubes from sticking out like a sore thumb like they do now, as they are the only things above the track. Your archways, combined with the fence or lattice that professortango described, would go very nicely with the colonnade, further theme the attraction, and help with the views.
    Like everything in DCA 1.0, the vision blocking was only partially accomplished? haha

    While on Screamin tho, the places where you can see the most are covered actually. This is at the top of both hills where you are going the slowest and are most likely to look around. The first tube goes over the peak of the first hill and down so you cant look straight out, while the second tube over the long lift hill starts right where the car hits the lift hill chain speed. For these reasons I think that they serve the dual purpose. Of course, putting the tube on every section you can see over the outer wall would have looked even worse.

    As for the concept art, it was not originally supposed to support anything. It would stand alone as arches for decorative effect. However the ammendment would see a solid panel rising along one side that would have a mural along it. There would be no roof as well (who cares if sound or wandering eyes go toward space?). So there you go.

    Here is a modification of my original (terrible) artwork to show what possibly could be used.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Anyway, my quick sketch: (brutalized by the file compression)

    Sorry its unfinished but you get the idea. That wall need be just a bit taller than is needed to cut off the angle where guests can see the horizon. And it could be pretty!
    Last edited by Trevor; 11-18-2009 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #51

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    This isnt directed at you 24601 (welcome here ), so dont feel that it is in any way.

    Here is where I sigh, look aimlessly at my computer and state that I don't actually think that the "scream tubes" are in no way for sound suppression, even though in my argument It may have sounded that way (even though I tried to make it prominent that it was most likely that their design was to block views, and other purposes were not out of the question). I do however belive that their overall design was indeed affected by the desire to block views of urban LA which would detract from the asthetic of the ride.
    I don't think so. If this were the reason then the gondolas on the Fun Wheel would have been designed to block these same views. And there is a lot more time to look at these views on the Fun Wheel than there is on Screamin'. (Speaking of views on a clear day when the doors open at the top of TOT you can see the skyscrapers in downtown LA!)

    I actually like the view. Of course I am a local and like seeing the various landmarks that I am familiar with. But during the winter when there's snow on the mountains the view can really be quite beautiful.

  7. #52

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    The tubes on Screamin aren't even close to being for the purpose of blocking your view. There are other, slower moving sections of screamin that have no tubes/shields, (the lift hill, for example). The big circle behind the loop is a scream shield as well - they just tried to disguise it as a big Mickey.

    There's no view blocking taking place on the Maliboomer, the Fun Wheel, the Jellyfish, and even the top of the GRR lift hill gives views of outside of DCA. It makes literally no sense that the tubes are view blockers. They are placed in the exact spots where screams are most likely occuring - the fast first incline after the launch, the big drop after the lift hill, and the loop.

    There's just no evidence or reason whatsoever that they are to block views, and a ton of evidence and reasons as to why they block sound.

  8. #53

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    I've been playing with that idea for months now and it takes until today for people to tell me I'm wrong? (with force) haha

  9. #54

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    I agree that the tubes are hideous and need to be removed or updated. They take away from the ride and would much prefer nothing there or it better looking at least.

  10. #55

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Well from whats been established, they cannot be removed, only modified.

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by d1mex View Post
    I agree that the tubes are hideous and need to be removed or updated. They take away from the ride and would much prefer nothing there or it better looking at least.
    I think you're definitely in the majority opinion there!

    Sadly, they do have to be there...the lattices that I originally suggested are a fairly minimalist approach to solving the most egregious problems, and that could (hypothetically) have the coaster refurbed and enhancing the sightlines of Paradise Pier fairly quickly. (plus the queue & sign)

    The ideal solution, though, would be to go all-out in Victorianizing* the coaster, with colonnades to disguise the sound blockers, arches for theme, and lattices/fences/spires to block the visual intrusion of modern Anaheim. This would justify Screamin' as a fully immersive coaster, and one that would be closer to Walt's standards. I don't hold out much hope for them to invest this much in the theming, but, hey, we can dream!

    ------
    *Still not a real word, but I've decided to grant it honorary wordliness.**

    **That's not a real word either...this could turn into a vicious cycle.

  12. #57

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I think you're definitely in the majority opinion there!

    Sadly, they do have to be there...the lattices that I originally suggested are a fairly minimalist approach to solving the most egregious problems, and that could (hypothetically) have the coaster refurbed and enhancing the sightlines of Paradise Pier fairly quickly. (plus the queue & sign)

    The ideal solution, though, would be to go all-out in Victorianizing* the coaster, with colonnades to disguise the sound blockers, arches for theme, and lattices/fences/spires to block the visual intrusion of modern Anaheim. This would justify Screamin' as a fully immersive coaster, and one that would be closer to Walt's standards. I don't hold out much hope for them to invest this much in the theming, but, hey, we can dream!
    Dont suggest that the tubes have anything to do with blocking sightlines. Thats bad news.

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Dont suggest that the tubes have anything to do with blocking sightlines. Thats bad news.
    Allow me to clarify--they need to be fixed because they themselves contribute to the sightline of the upper edge of the pier--not what do they prevent/allow you to see, but how do they look when you look across the park: a) hideous hacked-off teal "tube," b) slightly modern take on the white support structure of the coaster, or c) romanticized colonnades and Victorian arches.

  14. #59

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Allow me to clarify--they need to be fixed because they themselves contribute to the sightline of the upper edge of the pier--not what do they prevent/allow you to see, but how do they look when you look across the park: a) hideous hacked-off teal "tube," b) slightly modern take on the white support structure of the coaster, or c) romanticized colonnades and Victorian arches.
    But you said (and I quote) that it should have "lattices/fences/spires to block the visual intrusion of modern Anaheim." Does this mean that you agree that lattice or painted mural could be used in specific areas such as the main lift hill to block views of Anaheim? I think that that is a very possible and practical objective for new decorations, and I still feel that the exact design of the scream tubes was in part to block vision outside the park in addition to blocking sound which it is now seemingly obvious that they are partially for.

    If this were not even partially true, the tube wouldn't be half open toward the park, and if you notice, on the side of the coaster nearest the outside of the park, there is a decorative "wall" up that obsures views of the outside world.

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    But you said (and I quote) that it should have "lattices/fences/spires to block the visual intrusion of modern Anaheim." Does this mean that you agree that lattice or painted mural could be used in specific areas such as the main lift hill to block views of Anaheim? I think that that is a very possible and practical objective for new decorations, and I still feel that the exact design of the scream tubes was in part to block vision outside the park in addition to blocking sound which it is now seemingly obvious that they are partially for.

    If this were not even partially true, the tube wouldn't be half open toward the park, and if you notice, on the side of the coaster nearest the outside of the park, there is a decorative "wall" up that obsures views of the outside world.
    I absolutely agree that the tubes can (and should) be used to block the outside world, but that is not the primary reason they are there and thus not the primary design challenge. Going back to my OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    The half of the tubes facing the outside of the park would have a sheet of clear plastic or plexiglass (possibly frosted or distorted to hide the outside world) so screams would be deflected but visually the whole coaster would be open to the sky.
    The references to the latices/fences/spires are in regards to a separate structure, as suggested by professortango to have additional view blockers for other sections of the track:

    Quote Originally Posted by Professortango View Post
    I think they also need to build a white railing/lattice along points in the track where you can see the Convention Center and such. A simple 4 foot stretch of lattice work would easily block out much of the outside world and would hardly be noticed as you sped by.
    I was thinking the arches you designed would be useful to transition to & from the latticed sections and to enhance the overall theming.

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