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  1. #61

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Come to think of it, the outward side of the colonnades could have arches as well, as long as the arches would be filled in with translucent or distorting clear material (I leave it to the engineers and materials scientists to determine if such materials would be durable enough). This would keep the visual openness of the structure even with the historical architecture.

  2. #62

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    ^ I think that the arches I designed would only work on the hills though. Lining the whole ride with them would look tacky. As for lattice running along the lenth of the track, that would work in the western area of the ride around the boomer really nicely.

    When I think about it though, is the first scream tube over the hill right after the blast really nessisary? I mean at least going up the hill, the sound would have to make it through the trees, over and through the buildings and through two sets of the coasters supports. It also obviously is not for vision as that would not be a problem. To this end, I think removing the tube on that first hill up to the very top so that it only covers the ride as it crests and goes down that first drop would make the coaster look much better.


    Any better? Now just replace that with a victorian style of tube.

    Here is my idea for the sides of the hill and coaster too. Notice that you wouldnt have it on both sides like this, these are just crappy examples.
    Last edited by Trevor; 11-18-2009 at 08:11 PM.

  3. #63

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Yes, you do need the scream tube going up the first hill, because it's really only the open beams of the tallest lift hill between you and the outside world, and that's not going to block any sound. Furthermore, that's the accelerated launch, so people are screaming just as much going up as coming down.

    You wouldn't need archways over the entire coaster, just over the sections that would allow you to see out. I found an old construction photo, and I've marked the relevant sections in red:



    The green is where the scream tubes are, since they weren't all built as of that photo!

    [Edit: note that the leftmost curving wall would have to be extra tall to block the view from the inner, higher track as well.]

    So, for the current scream tubes, the full colonnade would be best since it is covered on top and will more effectively direct the noise, but all the red sections could have the archways and walls that you've drawn. Either the lattice or the painting side would be fine--at that speed, I doubt it would matter!

    How many archways would go over any stretch of wall could be variable--I agree with you not to overuse the motif, so they could be widely or narrowly spaced as needed.

    I wouldn't rule out putting some more "gingerbread" over & around some other parts of the coaster if necessary...if I were actually to design the whole thing, I would mock-up the scream colonnades & arches w/ walls that need to be there, and then I would see if any further additions would give it more depth, or if the necessities alone provided plenty of character.

  4. #64

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Yes, you do need the scream tube going up the first hill, because it's really only the open beams of the tallest lift hill between you and the outside world, and that's not going to block any sound. Furthermore, that's the accelerated launch, so people are screaming just as much going up as coming down.

    You wouldn't need archways over the entire coaster, just over the sections that would allow you to see out. I found an old construction photo, and I've marked the relevant sections in red:

    [pic removed]

    The green is where the scream tubes are, since they weren't all built as of that photo!

    [Edit: note that the leftmost curving wall would have to be extra tall to block the view from the inner, higher track as well.]

    So, for the current scream tubes, the full colonnade would be best since it is covered on top and will more effectively direct the noise, but all the red sections could have the archways and walls that you've drawn. Either the lattice or the painting side would be fine--at that speed, I doubt it would matter!

    How many archways would go over any stretch of wall could be variable--I agree with you not to overuse the motif, so they could be widely or narrowly spaced as needed.

    I wouldn't rule out putting some more "gingerbread" over & around some other parts of the coaster if necessary...if I were actually to design the whole thing, I would mock-up the scream colonnades & arches w/ walls that need to be there, and then I would see if any further additions would give it more depth, or if the necessities alone provided plenty of character.
    In order to remove the tube going up the first hill, they could put in trees or something backstage (trees actually block sound fantastically if they are rather lush) and then the new structures could be built where the tubes already are, except for up that first hill where I edited it off.

    I think that the murals would be best suited for up the large lift hill where the ride is going the slowest, and possibly along the break section just after where the first red line you've drawn along the track ends.

    Making that wall super tall in order to block the views of the upper track to me would be kind of ugly, and very noticable looking at the ride. You wouldnt be able to see the structure of the ride anymore. What I suggest instead for that area is foilage between the track and the park.

    I hope it is alright that I borrowed this picture from you and modified it. Photo credit to you of coursre.



    In my mind, the more open the coaster is, the better. So basically the areas that are white are just open track, the areas that are read have partially covered structure around them (Victorian of course), the yellow gets the trellis/lattice, and the green is where lines of foilage are planted to block views. Lastly, the blue is to highlight an area that I think most riders are looking forward into the park and not backward out to Anaheim, so its not a big problem there (the trees would help too).

  5. #65

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    I agree that the coaster should be as open as possible. The foliage would work very nicely in the places you've shown.

    I'm afraid with the height of the first lift hill and its position on the midway, the sound covering will be a necessity--trees just wouldn't cut it (not that you could squeeze so dense a tree layer into the pedestrian walkway anyway). I wish it were so, but unfortunately not. Having a colonnade there would actually be a good thing in a way, because it will mean there are architectural features both in the front and back of the coaster, which will be good for visual balance, and it won't be so painfully clear why the architecture is there (compared to features only on the rearmost sections of the track).

    By the way, I forgot to state the photo credit is to about.com. Oops!

  6. #66

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I agree that the coaster should be as open as possible. The foliage would work very nicely in the places you've shown.

    I'm afraid with the height of the first lift hill and its position on the midway, the sound covering will be a necessity--trees just wouldn't cut it (not that you could squeeze so dense a tree layer into the pedestrian walkway anyway). I wish it were so, but unfortunately not. Having a colonnade there would actually be a good thing in a way, because it will mean there are architectural features both in the front and back of the coaster, which will be good for visual balance, and it won't be so painfully clear why the architecture is there (compared to features only on the rearmost sections of the track).

    By the way, I forgot to state the photo credit is to about.com. Oops!
    The tree layer would go in behind the shops building behind the screamin supports backstage. My appologies for not clarifying. (I really want this part of the ride to be open) .

    Even better, they could build a building behind the supports to house offices and make more space north of Disneyland for expansion there.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    ...

    Compared too


    Having the structure like this with victorian coverings instead of scream tubes would provide great visual balance.

    (notice too how perfectly the two hills are high just to block the powerline in behind? Disney is sooo good. They deserve way more credit. Even the other drop in the top right corner is that same hight blocking the lines even further to the right.)
    Last edited by Trevor; 11-18-2009 at 10:48 PM.

  7. #67

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    While I sympathize with wanting that section of the coaster open, none of those fixes will block the sound effectively at all--if the shield is farther away from the noise source, the sound waves have an opportunity to reach much wider areas after which it is difficult (or impossible) to block them. Frankly, if it were in any way possible to do without that scream tube, it wouldn't be there in the first place.

  8. #68

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    While I sympathize with wanting that section of the coaster open, none of those fixes will block the sound effectively at all--if the shield is farther away from the noise source, the sound waves have an opportunity to reach much wider areas after which it is difficult (or impossible) to block them. Frankly, if it were in any way possible to do without that scream tube, it wouldn't be there in the first place.
    We my friend will have to dissagree then. I think that between a proper wall or foilage built backstage and the buildings already present, the tube could definitly be cut off until at least part way up that first hill.

  9. #69

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    I like the tubes or arches for the first hill. It makes the launch appear much faster than it is when zooming by the lights circling the tube. The same effect could be accomplished with the lattice arches.
    Women, they make the highs higher and the lows more frequent.

  10. #70

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by Professortango View Post
    I like the tubes or arches for the first hill. It makes the launch appear much faster than it is when zooming by the lights circling the tube. The same effect could be accomplished with the lattice arches.
    I think that the arches would be cool up until where the tube starts on my edited picture where a tunnel of some kind would start. You would have great views and it would seem fast. The best part though is that it looks more like a wooden coaster if it is just supports.

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    I've posted this on Trevor's thread as well, but it's also quite relevant here.



    Without a scream tube, the sound will have radiated far too much to be caught feasibly by any type of sound barrier backstage.

  12. #72

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I've posted this on Trevor's thread as well, but it's also quite relevant here.



    Without a scream tube, the sound will have radiated far too much to be caught feasibly by any type of sound barrier backstage.
    I rebutted it in my thread but I will post that here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Hi Trevor,

    Sorry, but you just can't remove that first scream tube. The laws of physics are kind of picky on this one.

    Your idea to have a barrier further back ignores the fact that he sound waves will have radiated to an enormous area by then. Here is a picture showing the sound reflected close to the source versus farther away:

    [picture removed]

    See, a backstage barrier would have to extend every bit as high as the lift hill itself, and would either be prohibitively expensive or an eyesore in its own right.

    Regarding the scream tubes it is cut a little bit higher then I would like it to be in my concept art, but with huge thick trees like the ones in the viewing area lined up backstage, they can get around this. It can be done, Its part of my plan, and I dont really need paragraphs telling me that its impossible (expecially when everyone likes them. As a compromise, we could counsider moving the tube back down the hill a little bit while adding a mural wall to part of the rest of the hill. And the angles showin in that picture are rediculus! haha. A front on picture shows that if the tube came down a little bit more than in my concept drawing, the back lift hill would indeed be high enough to block the waves and trees behind it would work fantastically.

  13. #73

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I rebutted it in my thread but I will post that here.

    Regarding the scream tubes it is cut a little bit higher then I would like it to be in my concept art, but with huge thick trees like the ones in the viewing area lined up backstage, they can get around this. It can be done, Its part of my plan, and I dont really need paragraphs telling me that its impossible (expecially when everyone likes them. As a compromise, we could counsider moving the tube back down the hill a little bit while adding a mural wall to part of the rest of the hill. And the angles showin in that picture are rediculus! haha. A front on picture shows that if the tube came down a little bit more than in my concept drawing, the back lift hill would indeed be high enough to block the waves and trees behind it would work fantastically.
    What exactly do you mean that the angle is ridiculous? Sound needs to be blocked from any and all angles that would upset Anaheim residents. It's not front-on that's the problem, because the only vectors you can demonstrate in that plane (let's call it coronal) radiate to other regions of the park and the PP hotel parking lot. I tried to get a shot parallel to the Screamin' launch (sagittal), so you can see how sound waves emanate from the track toward the south border of the park. In the coronal plane you can't identify the distance from the wave source to your proposed location of a sound barrier. The back lift hill wouldn't block ANY sound at all--it's nothing but a set of crisscross steel beams with open air flowing through!! How on earth would that be an effective sound barrier?!

    And, I'm sorry, but since you saw fit to criticize the validity of a Wikipedia entry for a fact that was a) eminently correct, and b) common knowledge to DCA connoisseurs, I'm going to have to take exception to "It can be done" as a suitable rebuttal. Please provide a citation wherein foliage is considered an effective sound barrier, and which species of trees would grow high enough to meet the needs of the Screamin' lift hill and have dense enough foliage at all necessary heights. The ones in the WoC viewing area wouldn't even begin to block sound to an acceptable degree--they're way too sparse and aren't close to the required height.

    In all honesty, you do need paragraphs telling you what is impossible. The foundation of good design is to work within constraints and come up with realistic solutions, and to incorporate feedback. "Everyone likes them" isn't enough to defy the laws of physics, I'm afraid (or the laws of Anaheim, for that matter).

  14. #74

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I was also wondering--would it be possible to move the titanium sun from the plaza to the back of California Screamin'? I've always liked that sun, even though it is woefully inadequate as a hub centerpiece, so I would like to see it incorporated into the park in some capacity rather than chucked out when Carthay Circle is built. I read that it's about 50 feet wide, or about 1/3 the diameter of Mickey's Fun Wheel, which seems like it's roughly the same scale as the Screamin' sun/Mickey head. I couldn't find any info on how deep or how heavy it is, or how it's mounted, so I don't know if it's technically possible to put behind Screamin'. The drawing above has the sun from the plaza shown, but, failing that any yet-to-be-determined-but-certainly-better-than-that-painted-cartoon-sun would do.
    Just to practice what I preach about feedback. No one's actually addressed this point directly (too bad, because I was interested in learning more about it!), but I was reminded by other comments that the circle (sun; former Mickey head) behind the loop is a sound barrier, and I don't think the center part of the titanium sun (in my very superficial estimation) is wide enough to perform that blocking function. So, if the sun were to be incorporated here, I would guess that it would have to be affixed to a solid backing of some sort. Again, I don't know enough about the engineering of the structure to know if that's possible...

  15. #75

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    What exactly do you mean that the angle is ridiculous? Sound needs to be blocked from any and all angles that would upset Anaheim residents. It's not front-on that's the problem, because the only vectors you can demonstrate in that plane (let's call it coronal) radiate to other regions of the park and the PP hotel parking lot. I tried to get a shot parallel to the Screamin' launch (sagittal), so you can see how sound waves emanate from the track toward the south border of the park. In the coronal plane you can't identify the distance from the wave source to your proposed location of a sound barrier. The back lift hill wouldn't block ANY sound at all--it's nothing but a set of crisscross steel beams with open air flowing through!! How on earth would that be an effective sound barrier?!

    And, I'm sorry, but since you saw fit to criticize the validity of a Wikipedia entry for a fact that was a) eminently correct, and b) common knowledge to DCA connoisseurs, I'm going to have to take exception to "It can be done" as a suitable rebuttal. Please provide a citation wherein foliage is considered an effective sound barrier, and which species of trees would grow high enough to meet the needs of the Screamin' lift hill and have dense enough foliage at all necessary heights. The ones in the WoC viewing area wouldn't even begin to block sound to an acceptable degree--they're way too sparse and aren't close to the required height.

    In all honesty, you do need paragraphs telling you what is impossible. The foundation of good design is to work within constraints and come up with realistic solutions, and to incorporate feedback. "Everyone likes them" isn't enough to defy the laws of physics, I'm afraid (or the laws of Anaheim, for that matter).
    I saw fit to question the autenticity of Wikipedia itself, and more specificly a comment in Wikipedia that was uncited. That is reasonable judgement.



    Now just to please you I replaced the scream tube down lower so that it would catch all the wanton sound that leaves Screamin'. See you seem to think that every peep that comes off of this ride in these few areas needs to be caught. I dont think that that is true, and still my idea here would catch most all of that noise. Yet you still shoot down anything and everything I say.

    Anyway say that that green area was either lined with foilage or covered somehow so that sound could not get through, it would stop any sound from getting to LA that the tube Did. Sound cannot fly over the barrier, work its way through the supports and then drop down on the city. Any sound that through atmospheric distortion did end up getting back to the street level would be more or less negligable or comparable to the sound that escapes from any other ride in the area.

    And in actuallity, I would have that scream tube a little shorter and then have a mural wall on one side in order to stop the sound waves before we got high enough that the sound could get over the back stage buildings and attack the city like an audible rocket which would upset all the neighbors and cause lawsuit after lawsuit. We all know that the screams produced on the first half of that lifthill are the worst (and most deadly) by far. They shoot right through the TSMM building, the supports and then just keep going taking no prisoners in their wake.

    As for the screams which travel backward, they fly right through the headrests on the car, fly all the way out, through timon, rally in the parking lot and after a few miles of flying reak havoc on the hotels. That should only get worse when they only have the carsland fascade to get through.

    As far as the forward traveling waves, they fly through the supports for the break run after the loop, through and over the backstage buildings and trees, out through the Hotel parking lot and then attack that end of the city. All that from the bottom half of the launch hill. Yikes! (Note also that those backstage buildings refrenced are taller than the palm trees just in front of the ride and provide a very daunting obsticle to get through.)
    Last edited by Trevor; 11-21-2009 at 05:27 PM.

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