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  1. #76

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I saw fit to question the autenticity of Wikipedia itself, and more specificly a comment in Wikipedia that was uncited. That is reasonable judgement.



    Now just to please you I replaced the scream tube down lower so that it would catch all the wanton sound that leaves Screamin'. See you seem to think that every peep that comes off of this ride in these few areas needs to be caught. I dont think that that is true, and still my idea here would catch most all of that noise. Yet you still shoot down anything and everything I say.

    Anyway say that that green area was either lined with foilage or covered somehow so that sound could not get through, it would stop any sound from getting to LA that the tube Did. Sound cannot fly over the barrier, work its way through the supports and then drop down on the city. Any sound that through atmospheric distortion did end up getting back to the street level would be more or less negligable or comparable to the sound that escapes from any other ride in the area.

    And in actuallity, I would have that scream tube a little shorter and then have a mural wall on one side in order to stop the sound waves before we got high enough that the sound could get over the back stage buildings and attack the city like an audible rocket which would upset all the neighbors and cause lawsuit after lawsuit. We all know that the screams produced on the first half of that lifthill are the worst (and most deadly) by far. They shoot right through the TSMM building, the supports and then just keep going taking no prisoners in their wake.

    As for the screams which travel backward, they fly right through the headrests on the car, fly all the way out, through timon, rally in the parking lot and after a few miles of flying reak havoc on the hotels. That should only get worse when they only have the carsland fascade to get through.

    As far as the forward traveling waves, they fly through the supports for the break run after the loop, through and over the backstage buildings and trees, out through the Hotel parking lot and then attack that end of the city. All that from the bottom half of the launch hill. Yikes! (Note also that those backstage buildings refrenced are taller than the palm trees just in front of the ride and provide a very daunting obsticle to get through.)
    I think we have very different design philosophies...I find it most interesting to actually incorporate as much information as I can to create as realistic a design as possible. It just isn't interesting or fun for me (even for armchair imagineering) to consider concepts in which I can plainly identify flaws that would prevent it from being actually feasible. I much prefer to find solutions that address all the problem points of which I am aware. You, on the other hand, seem to go to great lengths to "wish away" constraints or insist on believing what you want to believe to make your design work. I think incorporating those challenges is the whole point of the process.

    Now, I freely acknowledge that none of my designs are, in real terms, any closer to being built than yours are (since, in the real world, I don't work for Disney ). But, to me a design isn't all that impressive if it ignores some of the challenges that it is supposed to take into account.

    Here, we have a very clear design challenge: the city of Anaheim requires noise protection on that lift hill. If they didn't, it wouldn't be there. Noise blockers are *vastly* more effective closer to the source, as I have already illustrated. You seem to be willfully ignoring the geometry of just how much additional area would need to be blocked from that far away. Yes, it would look better not to have anything over that lift hill, but I doubt there's anyone over at WDI who would say, "Man! Remove the first lift hill tube! Why didn't I think of that?!"

    And, to be somewhat picky, sound *can* fly over the barrier in a manner of speaking: the basics of wave propagation state that once a wave form traveling in either 2 or 3 dimensional space (like air) passes a partial block, the particle(s) adjacent to that block act as a new wave propagation source (with the intensity and vector equal to whatever energy it received from the original source), so the waves begin to radiate out past the block in a wedge-like pattern. So, in very rough terms, a barrier that went halfway up the lift hill at that distance would only be effectively blocking noise from the first quarter or so.

  2. #77

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    ...

    Here, we have a very clear design challenge: the city of Anaheim requires noise protection on that lift hill. If they didn't, it wouldn't be there. Noise blockers are *vastly* more effective closer to the source, as I have already illustrated. You seem to be willfully ignoring the geometry of just how much additional area would need to be blocked from that far away. Yes, it would look better not to have anything over that lift hill, but I doubt there's anyone over at WDI who would say, "Man! Remove the first lift hill tube! Why didn't I think of that?!"

    ...
    This is for AGD, nobody else will be interested in reading it.

    Dang, there goes the thought I always had that Disney read what I wrote and felt bad for not thinking of it themselves.

    Honestly, labeling my designs as flawed and using the tone which demeans my ideas because you hold a different view is not very good etiquette. Man people must hate us right now, but I think you need to agree that you don't support my idea and then stop attacking and criticizing it because I didn't post this idea just for you, and now any feedback I might have received from other readers is gone because they don't want to get involved in useless bickering.

    I have tried to implement changes for you, I've worked out other methods of sound deflection and still you sit there and say that nothing but your idea will work. The idea that the amount of sound that would escape from thirty feet of track set inside a park would be enough to escape in a large enough amount to upset people might be your firm belief, but implying that my whole idea which was never supposed to be focused on sound is flawed is just anti productive.

    Sure, noise needs to be taken care of, and it would be at the top of the hill where it can broadcasted but I just don't feel that with the angles I have both shown and studied from Bing Maps that with the new infrastructure built since Screamin' was completed that it is necessary.


    -------End Rant--------

    I just don't like the fact that I was excited to put together these design elements, show off my crappy drawings and have people comment on my ideas, but now everybody has written off this thread because of this. You were the OP, but you will learn that anytime you have ideas, people will throw their own in just as I did and discussion will become much more productive than a perpetual argument. I love your woodgrain idea, I love your drawings, but I just wanted to see what people thought of the idea for different scream tubes.

  3. #78

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    This is for AGD, nobody else will be interested in reading it.
    [...]

    I just don't like the fact that I was excited to put together these design elements, show off my crappy drawings and have people comment on my ideas, but now everybody has written off this thread because of this. You were the OP, but you will learn that anytime you have ideas, people will throw their own in just as I did and discussion will become much more productive than a perpetual argument. I love your woodgrain idea, I love your drawings, but I just wanted to see what people thought of the idea for different scream tubes.
    I really do enjoy other ideas--if you've noticed, I've basically stated that I prefer kaliwolf's concept to my own! (My official position is: at least lighten up the tubes with a lattice, but in an ideal world I'd like to see colonnades, arches, & the full Victorian effect.) I also supported your ideas for the arches, professortango's idea for the side fences, and your idea for trees on the lower portion of the Western helix, and arches w/ walls on the upper.

    However, not all ideas are feasible, which unfortunately includes your scream tube substitute. I don't particularly mean to shoot down your ideas (and you do have many good ones), but if you were on the Project Tracker when they were discussing the flotation of the platform, you'll notice that some people prefer to get more technical than others. This happens to be an area where I'm a bit of a stickler for realism. This is why I refrained from continuing this discussion on your thread about Screamin', I made my point, but after that I figured, it's your thread, you decide how realistic you want it to be. Note, I also got called out on the realism of using a clear material on the scream tubes: since I don't really know enough about materials science, I chose not to argue (although, frankly, with all the giant glass skyscrapers around, I'm pretty sure it's possible in some form or another!) and just acknowledged that there might be a difficulty.

    As for writing off this thread...man, it has nearly* 2,500 views & counting! I really wasn't hoping for anything over a couple hundred, so I'm really quite pleased with the reception it's gotten.

    *EDIT: over

  4. #79

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I really do enjoy other ideas--if you've noticed, I've basically stated that I prefer kaliwolf's concept to my own! (My official position is: at least lighten up the tubes with a lattice, but in an ideal world I'd like to see colonnades, arches, & the full Victorian effect.) I also supported your ideas for the arches, professortango's idea for the side fences, and your idea for trees on the lower portion of the Western helix, and arches w/ walls on the upper.

    However, not all ideas are feasible, which unfortunately includes your scream tube substitute. I don't particularly mean to shoot down your ideas (and you do have many good ones), but if you were on the Project Tracker when they were discussing the flotation of the platform, you'll notice that some people prefer to get more technical than others. This happens to be an area where I'm a bit of a stickler for realism. This is why I refrained from continuing this discussion on your thread about Screamin', I made my point, but after that I figured, it's your thread, you decide how realistic you want it to be. Note, I also got called out on the realism of using a clear material on the scream tubes: since I don't really know enough about materials science, I chose not to argue (although, frankly, with all the giant glass skyscrapers around, I'm pretty sure it's possible in some form or another!) and just acknowledged that there might be a difficulty.
    ...
    Well making curved glass would cause distortion, but it depends on how you planned to shape it.

    I still feel as you do with those tubes though that with some investment and design at least the more imposing section of the tube could be moved up the hill while a smaller and less noticable wall would be used on the lower portion of that first hill. With all of the ways they have to block sound, there must be a way!

  5. #80

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Well making curved glass would cause distortion, but it depends on how you planned to shape it.

    I still feel as you do with those tubes though that with some investment and design at least the more imposing section of the tube could be moved up the hill while a smaller and less noticable wall would be used on the lower portion of that first hill. With all of the ways they have to block sound, there must be a way!
    I kinda like the fact that it would cause distortion...actually, what I'd most like (and I'm way out of my depth here, engineering-wise) would be to have glass with a ripple-effect so it would let daylight in & look pretty from a distance, but you couldn't see out of it. No idea if that's possible to do on the kind of scale that would be necessary...

    With the lattice idea, it would depend where you start the first support, and then it would rise up gradually at an angle (see the original drawing), so it would in fact be less noticeable. With the colonnade idea, I just think the archways would look so cool that I don't mind where they start...but I suppose you could move it up 10 feet or so with a some architectural features that transition into the first spire.

  6. #81

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    You would have to somehow shape it like a lens so that the closer you got to it, the less of a distortion point it would hold. How that works is if your eye is close to it, the "lens" doesn't have enough time to bend the light in a way your brain can no longer make out, but once you reach a certain thresh hold, the light beams are bent to a point that they can no longer be made out. Another option would be the peep hole effect where those inside can see through relatively clearly while on the other side the light is distorted. That is really hard to do in any other shape than a small circle though!

    I wonder now if our other ideas are more aligned than we were previously willing to admit. I pictured trellis arches like those I pictured beginning at the very base of the first hill after the launch which would be spaced at a distance apart up the hill. On the side closest to Midway Mania it would be a solid wood wall as high as the trellis is (I suggested with a mural on it to make it pretty) while open on the other side. Once you reached the hight my second rendering showed, the trellis would then become what you are referring to as a colonnade with a Victorian roof and a solid wooden wall on the TSMM side. You need the roof at the top of the hill because it is obvious that screams are going to shoot sound off in all directions at the crest of the hill where nothing is tall enough to block it. Half way up the hill though, there is just so much around the coaster that any sound going up at the angle needed to get over the mural wall would be lost to the sky. This roof would then continue down that first drop to block views of the outside world.

    Similarly on the largest hill, a series of trellis arches with a mural on the "outside world" edge of the track would extend up as far up as the current scream tube is now. Again it would be replaced by a covered colonnade most of the way down. At those other areas you highlighted as "negative sight line areas" on that construction picture I suggested that a lattice wall on the "outside world" edge of the track would suffice to block views as there is no sound protection needed

    Does this seem to better portray what I am meaning?

  7. #82

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    You would have to somehow shape it like a lens so that the closer you got to it, the less of a distortion point it would hold. How that works is if your eye is close to it, the "lens" doesn't have enough time to bend the light in a way your brain can no longer make out, but once you reach a certain thresh hold, the light beams are bent to a point that they can no longer be made out. Another option would be the peep hole effect where those inside can see through relatively clearly while on the other side the light is distorted. That is really hard to do in any other shape than a small circle though!

    I wonder now if our other ideas are more aligned than we were previously willing to admit. I pictured trellis arches like those I pictured beginning at the very base of the first hill after the launch which would be spaced at a distance apart up the hill. On the side closest to Midway Mania it would be a solid wood wall as high as the trellis is (I suggested with a mural on it to make it pretty) while open on the other side. Once you reached the hight my second rendering showed, the trellis would then become what you are referring to as a colonnade with a Victorian roof and a solid wooden wall on the TSMM side. You need the roof at the top of the hill because it is obvious that screams are going to shoot sound off in all directions at the crest of the hill where nothing is tall enough to block it. Half way up the hill though, there is just so much around the coaster that any sound going up at the angle needed to get over the mural wall would be lost to the sky. This roof would then continue down that first drop to block views of the outside world.

    Similarly on the largest hill, a series of trellis arches with a mural on the "outside world" edge of the track would extend up as far up as the current scream tube is now. Again it would be replaced by a covered colonnade most of the way down. At those other areas you highlighted as "negative sight line areas" on that construction picture I suggested that a lattice wall on the "outside world" edge of the track would suffice to block views as there is no sound protection needed

    Does this seem to better portray what I am meaning?
    I don't quite see what you're getting at about the lens. All I have in mind is actually really simple--basically think the patterned "privacy glass" popular for bathroom windows...it lets in natural light, but the outside world is reduced to a series of ripples. I think it would be a cool effect as you go zooming by!

    This could either fill in the "diamonds" between the crisscrossing lattices in the original renderings, or fill in arches in the colonnade in the fully-decorated version (that way, it would still look very open on both sides).

    The colonnade would probably have to extend a good ways down the first lift hill--you might be able to buy some open-air space by transitioning it down with solid architectural features, but I think the top needs to be covered for most of it.

    I'm not sure how I feel about a mural--they can look very cheap if not done carefully (see: Paradise Pier, east end of). Also, if it's well-painted, it will go by too quickly to be appreciated. For the sight-blockers, I would like some elaborate trellis or fence work that would have a little bit of three-dimensionality, and that you could only see through in little patches between carvings, so that you can't really see what's on the other side.

    On a side note, do you know where I can find some reference photos of the Screamin' queue? Google images is not being kind to me...

  8. #83

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I don't quite see what you're getting at about the lens. All I have in mind is actually really simple--basically think the patterned "privacy glass" popular for bathroom windows...it lets in natural light, but the outside world is reduced to a series of ripples. I think it would be a cool effect as you go zooming by!

    This could either fill in the "diamonds" between the crisscrossing lattices in the original renderings, or fill in arches in the colonnade in the fully-decorated version (that way, it would still look very open on both sides). If the glass/lattice idea was used, I would have that anywhere a collonade wasnt used, but when there was one used the inside wall closest to the exterior of the park would in my opinion be best as solid wood where a mural could be painted.

    The colonnade would probably have to extend a good ways down the first lift hill--you might be able to buy some open-air space by transitioning it down with solid architectural features, but I think the top needs to be covered for most of it.

    I'm not sure how I feel about a mural--they can look very cheap if not done carefully (see: Paradise Pier, east end of). Also, if it's well-painted, it will go by too quickly to be appreciated. For the sight-blockers, I would like some elaborate trellis or fence work that would have a little bit of three-dimensionality, and that you could only see through in little patches between carvings, so that you can't really see what's on the other side.

    On a side note, do you know where I can find some reference photos of the Screamin' queue? Google images is not being kind to me...
    Ohh, I understood that you wanted to be able to see through the glass while on the ride, but to have it shimmering and opaque while looking at the ride from a distance. My mistake.

    As for the murals, I picture elaborate pictures done in the old fasioned carnival style. The ride is generally slower on the hills so that is why I chose to put it there. I agree though that a lattice wall with glass in the diamond holes would do a good job of this too. Still, at the top of the hills and where the chain is lifting you on the largest lifthill, a cool mural depicting the fair in the classic, elaborate style would be really cool to fill in the space.

    If you mean down the first hill as in the first drop, the collonade would have to extend almost as far as it does now. It is much more open on that side of the ride for both sightlines and sound. If you mean up the first hill where you are launched, then our disagreement stands.

    For me also, I use bing now for everything. It has amazing ariel views under the map function for much of the world and they offer a much more detailed views of everything than the typical ariel view. Microsoft hit the nail on the head with this one.

  9. #84

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    But you said (and I quote) that it should have "lattices/fences/spires to block the visual intrusion of modern Anaheim." Does this mean that you agree that lattice or painted mural could be used in specific areas such as the main lift hill to block views of Anaheim? I think that that is a very possible and practical objective for new decorations, and I still feel that the exact design of the scream tubes was in part to block vision outside the park in addition to blocking sound which it is now seemingly obvious that they are partially for.

    If this were not even partially true, the tube wouldn't be half open toward the park, and if you notice, on the side of the coaster nearest the outside of the park, there is a decorative "wall" up that obsures views of the outside world.
    I do remember having the conversation with one of the persons that worked on DCA 2.1 and one of the reasons mentioned not only for the Mickey sillhoutte but the tubes was to block some of the views and to decrease some of the sound. The problem was not blocking the views outside of the park but trying to block most of the view of the backstage area of the park which is right behind Screamin. Several concepts for the tubes were drawn out and several included blocking other sections of the track that still allow some of the backstage area views but the addition of more tubes and longer tubes in the lift hills thru off the balance of the coaster when seen from other areas of the bay. the final design allowed for minimal intrusion and still served both purposes of blocking the majority of backstage views and sound.
    Last edited by Baloo; 11-21-2009 at 11:36 PM.

  10. #85

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I've posted this on Trevor's thread as well, but it's also quite relevant here.



    Without a scream tube, the sound will have radiated far too much to be caught feasibly by any type of sound barrier backstage.

    one question, why would sound be traveling south when most people that would be screamin as they go up hill would be facing straight ahead?

    Also why would it matter if sound from the first hill traveled south if there is little to no residential housing south of Katella?


    The first hill tubes was really only added to help balance the look of the coaster when they felt the large hill needed something to minimize sound for nearby hotels and views of the backstage infrustructure.

    Also remember the original design of the coaster was supposedly to make it seem like guests were aboard a surfboard being launched by a wave. The two tubes on both lift hills were designed to look like the crests of two large waves
    Last edited by Baloo; 11-21-2009 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #86

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    I do remember having the conversation with one of the persons that worked on DCA 2.1 and one of the reasons mentioned not only for the Mickey silhouette but the tubes was to block some of the views and to decrease some of the sound. The problem was not blocking the views outside of the park but trying to block most of the view of the backstage area of the park which is right behind Screamin.
    This is what I assumed. I know that I refer to LA a lot but really I originally meant that the tubes were to block sightliness of anything that the imaginer's didn't want you to see, such as that backstage area directly behind Screamin' including the building behind the Pier Shops and the other buildings scattered back there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    Several concepts for the tubes were drawn out and several included blocking other sections of the track that still allow some of the backstage area views but the addition of more tubes and longer tubes in the lift hills thru off the balance of the coaster when seen from other areas of the bay. the final design allowed for minimal intrusion and still served both purposes of blocking the majority of backstage views and sound toward the hotels across katella
    This is why me and AGD are trying to bang out a design for some other way to block those views that would be visually non-intrusive. Limited success so far! I have noticed in places such as the long lift hill that the railing for the walkway has some kind of decorating on it that makes it hard to see past. The lattice ideas really are an extension of that concept. My personal vendetta against the tube over that first hill still stands.

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    one question, why would sound be traveling south when most people that would be screamin as they go up hill would be facing straight ahead?

    Also why would it matter if sound from the first hill traveled south if there is little to no residential housing south of Katella?


    The first hill tubes was really only added to help balance the look of the coaster when they felt the large hill needed something to minimize sound for nearby hotels and views of the backstage infrustructure.

    Also remember the original design of the coaster was supposedly to make it seem like guests were aboard a surfboard being launched by a wave. The two tubes on both lift hills were designed to look like the crests of two large waves
    I'm assuming a decent full-throated scream is going to cover roughly 150-180 degrees, so there would be a significant southward component, and certainly southwest of Screamin' are a lot of hotels, etc. The angle on the picture is a little too southeasterly, but it's the best one I could find.

    Thanks for the backstory tidbits...crests of waves?!?! Man, I *never* would have gotten that from that coaster!! It kinda sounds like they were desperately trying to claim some theme without actually spending any money to communicate one!

    Do you have any further info on whether it would be possible to move the titanium sun to Screamin' (with a solid backing, I imagine)?

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    That balanced it? I thought it looked way better with the first tube peeled back. Thanks Baloo!

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    That balanced it? I thought it looked way better with the first tube peeled back. Thanks Baloo!
    I can kinda see what he means by this...the current incarnation of the scream tubes are so ugly that, aesthetically if not practically, less is always more. But, if you actually had something appealing up there, it would actually look kinda funny if they were only on the very back of the coaster--it would give away what they were for, instead of being fully incorporated into the coaster design. However, since all the tubes are so hacked-off and perfunctory-looking, I'm strongly inclined to believe that whatever is there is required.

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    Re: A fix for Screamin's scream tubes (with "concept art")

    Ummm I think the new tubes would be just as much as an eyesore as the present ones. I actually like the ones used right now, but you are right that they don't belnd with the Victorian feel. The tubes used right now look beautiful with the ferris wheel at night

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