View Poll Results: What do you think of this concept for a Condor Flats show?

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  1. #61

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Can you widen the flume on the structure first?

    I personally don't know about the re theme for the area. America's military valour extends many many years and there could be a tonne done on it so this little spot in DCA might not be the best place to try and fit that theme. Also Soarin would seem an odd fit after the land was re themed and I think the film would suffer if it was given a storyline other than exhibiting the most beautiful vistas Disney can film.

    The only difficulty here would be getting the last diners out on time while also getting all the tables clean for the new people coming in on their heels in the 8 or so minutes. That ammount of time should be good but I would suggest that each theater have some back up time wasters programmed in case of a slow load. It was unclear if this is what the side movie projecter was for, but this would be a good use for it. Extra clips could easily be shown if a backup occured.
    Last edited by Trevor; 02-22-2010 at 07:24 PM.

  2. #62

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I personally don't know about the re theme for the area. America's military valour extends many many years and there could be a tonne done on it so this little spot in DCA might not be the best place to try and fit that theme.
    Huh? California's airfields were instrumental in training during WWII, and this is a land about aviation. It fits in perfectly with the enriched California theme that they're trying to incorporate with the new DCA. What does this have to do with militarism in other times?

    Also Soarin would seem an odd fit after the land was re themed and I think the film would suffer if it was given a storyline other than exhibiting the most beautiful vistas Disney can film.
    I have said exactly that:

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    But, I would want to redress the exterior of Soarin' for sure, and a new film would be nice. I think Soarin' Over The World should stay at EPCOT (it's okay with me if the two parks have the same ride system, but the film needs to be different!), but I'd like to see a new Soarin' Over California that focuses mainly on the natural beauty of the state without the modern sportspeople in it, and as such it could just as easily take place in 1940 as 2010.
    So what's your point?
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  3. #63

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Perhaps I'm not quite understanding you...what would you like to see that would make it simpler? What should be cut or rearranged?

    Because, as I see it, the storyline is fairly straightforward: You're at a concert, with performances by a series of the best singers of the day. The bits of entertainment at intermission just flesh it out and provide depth, but not distraction.

    The rotating theater concept wouldn't be played up like it is in Carousel of Progress or America Swings. In fact, the mechanism will be hidden as much as possible (although it wouldn't really be any big secret!). To the casual viewer, you're just enjoying a concert with top-notch talent. But, you do get the immense advantages of this ride system--you can have a relatively long show without having to worry about a scheduled starting time, you have an intimate theater size while still maintaining a high capacity, and five shows playing concurrently.

    It also makes the restaurant operation much more feasible, by staggering the groups of people...if you only had one theater, the restaurant would need to have 270 meals being served in one 9-minute period, and then 45 minutes of down-time while the show was going on. Here, the restaurant can handle 36 meals every 9 minutes (or 8 minutes--the exact time frame isn't finalized).
    I understand that the capacity is great, I just think that the rotating theater and the general elaborateness of the whole thing isn't completely necessary for what you get from the show. I know what it's like to have someone criticize your ideas and have you be just like "... but why?? didn't you see this amazing thing?" (not that that's an example of you in this situation). It's still a very cool concept and I'd be excited for an attraction like this but I don't see a big band performance being big enough of a deal for something of that scale. Regardless, I respect the amount of work that went into this and I definitely think that something like this should end up in DCA.

  4. #64

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    You put a lot of work into this! I think its a really good idea. If only you worked for Disney!
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  5. #65

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Huh? California's airfields were instrumental in training during WWII, and this is a land about aviation. It fits in perfectly with the enriched California theme that they're trying to incorporate with the new DCA. What does this have to do with militarism in other times?

    I have said exactly that:

    So what's your point?
    That they were, but so much could be done on the military topic that having one little corner of the park dedicated to it seems strange to me (just as the little condor flats area seems just as strange). It would much better fit in the third gate. It would be much more beneficial in my opinion to spread the national park into this area to better tie with the hotel and rid it of the aviation theme all together.

    My point with Soarin' was not that the outer structure would not fit (I saw the redress you proposed) but that the film wouldn't be well tied to the area if the land became based on a military airfield. I saw that you suggested a new film for Soarin' but removing the sportsman and making the film so that it "just as easily could" be taking place in the era of the new land doesn't take advantage of incorporating the amazing technology into the story of the area it is in. Obviously making Soarin' military based to fit that theme would degrade it as it is supposed to be a leisurely glide through the vistas, so that left me to propose that this might not be the best new theme for the land if Soarin' remained a part of it.

  6. #66

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman13 View Post
    I understand that the capacity is great, I just think that the rotating theater and the general elaborateness of the whole thing isn't completely necessary for what you get from the show. I know what it's like to have someone criticize your ideas and have you be just like "... but why?? didn't you see this amazing thing?" (not that that's an example of you in this situation). It's still a very cool concept and I'd be excited for an attraction like this but I don't see a big band performance being big enough of a deal for something of that scale. Regardless, I respect the amount of work that went into this and I definitely think that something like this should end up in DCA.
    Hi pianoman,

    I guess my question basically boils down to, why do you think the rotating show makes it more complicated? To my mind, it seems like the ideal way to present multiple performers (which I think is essential to keep it interesting) in the most stylistically straightforward way: one singer performs, then another takes the stage. Without the rotary mechanism, you'd need to have AA's in different places--like Country Bear Jamboree, where you have characters on balconies, the stage, the wall, the ceiling--which makes it MORE complicated from a story-telling point of view.

    I think the scale is similar to the other classic Disney AA shows. I feel it's significant that it's not just a big band concert--it's a big band concert in the tumult of WWII (and the script & ambient action would play that aspect up). Capturing the zeitgeist of that era was a major priority for me in the design, and I think it "raises the stakes" a bit as far as the scale of the attraction.

    I really do appreciate the feedback you've given, and I hope you don't mind that I'm still a bit confused as to what you're getting at in some places. I guess I'm not quite understanding what you refer to as the "general elaborateness," but if you could clarify I'd be happy to toss some ideas around about how things fit together. Thanks for your thoughts all the same!
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  7. #67

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    That they were, but so much could be done on the military topic that having one little corner of the park dedicated to it seems strange to me (just as the little condor flats area seems just as strange). It would much better fit in the third gate. It would be much more beneficial in my opinion to spread the national park into this area to better tie with the hotel and rid it of the aviation theme all together.

    My point with Soarin' was not that the outer structure would not fit (I saw the redress you proposed) but that the film wouldn't be well tied to the area if the land became based on a military airfield. I saw that you suggested a new film for Soarin' but removing the sportsman and making the film so that it "just as easily could" be taking place in the era of the new land doesn't take advantage of incorporating the amazing technology into the story of the area it is in. Obviously making Soarin' military based to fit that theme would degrade it as it is supposed to be a leisurely glide through the vistas, so that left me to propose that this might not be the best new theme for the land if Soarin' remained a part of it.
    How could you get rid of the aviation theme when Soarin' is the headline attraction?

    I disagree that extending the theme of Grizzly Peak into this area is the right way to go--it just seems kind of lazy to me. Not to mention, I've never been a big fan of the "National Park" idea in general. To me, Grizzly just cries out for a gold rush treatment, and I'd be much happier with two smaller, richly-themed lands than one rather weak theme trying to tie the two together. Also, Condor Flats is roughly the same size as Critter Country so I don't think it's necessarily too small: I feel it would do better by heightening its theme rather than diluting it.

    I'm not sure I'd want a lot more done with militarism in general--I have a soft spot for the 1940s because the music was fantastic, but I don't think a military focus would be the right direction for a third gate.

    Well, a new film for Soarin' has been on the table with WDI for a while now, I just think there are much better directions to go than Soarin' Over the World. Soarin' could do quite well as a "training flight" for the base, in which you'd sweep over gorgeous California vistas. Even now, the pre-show and loading audio is very "official" sounding, rather than touristy (not to mention all of the historical aviator pictures in the queue!), so it would really be enhancing themes that are already part of the ride experience.
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  8. #68

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    How could you get rid of the aviation theme when Soarin' is the headline attraction?

    I disagree that extending the theme of Grizzly Peak into this area is the right way to go--it just seems kind of lazy to me. Not to mention, I've never been a big fan of the "National Park" idea in general. To me, Grizzly just cries out for a gold rush treatment, and I'd be much happier with two smaller, richly-themed lands than one rather weak theme trying to tie the two together. Also, Condor Flats is roughly the same size as Critter Country so I don't think it's necessarily too small: I feel it would do better by heightening its theme rather than diluting it.
    The gold rush thing has been brought up before but with BTMRR across the esanalade I dont think gold is the way to go. Keep GRR focused on the wild and let the mine train find the precious metals. The national park idea on the other hand could be used by imagineers to tie together all of the natural excitement of California including Soarin' which could remain as a hang gliding adventure through the wilds of Cali. There is no immersiveness to Condor Flats at the moment with the random avation elements thrown together and the winding runway bordered by the giant hotel. Removing that theme could be delt with easily by adding in a more "rustic" wilderness hanger feeling. Airstrips were used for ranger stations at one point so taking off from one of those strips deep in the forest on a trip around California could be easily worked out. With some more to do in the Condor area such as the CBJ the area would really flesh out nicely as a feature of Californian natural beauty and excitement.

    [quote]I'm not sure I'd want a lot more done with militarism in general--I have a soft spot for the 1940s because the music was fantastic, but I don't think a military focus would be the right direction for a third gate./QUOTE]

    As a whole gate you are absolutly right. But all I am saying is that it could be better worked into a new park location wise.

    Well, a new film for Soarin' has been on the table with WDI for a while now, I just think there are much better directions to go than Soarin' Over the World. Soarin' could do quite well as a "training flight" for the base, in which you'd sweep over gorgeous California vistas. Even now, the pre-show and loading audio is very "official" sounding, rather than touristy (not to mention all of the historical aviator pictures in the queue!), so it would really be enhancing themes that are already part of the ride experience.
    I too don't like Soarin Over the World for California, but to take advantage of the look and feel of the ride, it would have to remain a hang glider attraction (expecially because that is what it is fameous as) and I know that military flights are never so smooth and glider-like. :P

  9. #69

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    As for the mainstream--well, I don't think a park should confine itself only to what is safe and obvious for a target market...I think that's what went wrong with DCA in the first place.
    I definitely agree that DCA shouldn't stay safe and obvious but a rotating theater with Judy Garland is hardly edgy. I am still having trouble with why people would want to go see this show. Seeing old stars who would have to be licensed isn't an especially attractive attraction. They aren't as old as lincoln to have that nostalgia, or as important to boot. They are in between historical and relevant at stage - boring. I think the novelty of seeing them would wear off after a single viewing and the music would turn many people off. There's no suspension of disbelief.

    On a completely different note I think that the impromptu set up might be unappealing to the restaurant goers paying top dollar.
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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    The gold rush thing has been brought up before but with BTMRR across the esanalade I dont think gold is the way to go. Keep GRR focused on the wild and let the mine train find the precious metals.
    I think we've had this conversation elsewhere, but the California goldrush landscape and atmosphere is significantly different from the midwest that's presented in Frontierland. And, really, it's a crime to do CA and somehow *forget* the gold rush, like they did! (and no, Golden Dreams doesn't cut it, and it's gone now anyway)

    There is no immersiveness to Condor Flats at the moment with the random avation elements thrown together and the winding runway bordered by the giant hotel. Removing that theme could be delt with easily by adding in a more "rustic" wilderness hanger feeling.
    See, I think a more historical and unique theme will give it that very immersive quality. A rustic wilderness hangar just isn't as interesting, and "papers-over" the area instead of really developing it.
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  11. #71

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MistaDee View Post
    I definitely agree that DCA shouldn't stay safe and obvious but a rotating theater with Judy Garland is hardly edgy. I am still having trouble with why people would want to go see this show. Seeing old stars who would have to be licensed isn't an especially attractive attraction. They aren't as old as lincoln to have that nostalgia, or as important to boot. They are in between historical and relevant at stage - boring. I think the novelty of seeing them would wear off after a single viewing and the music would turn many people off. There's no suspension of disbelief.

    On a completely different note I think that the impromptu set up might be unappealing to the restaurant goers paying top dollar.
    I rather think not--Queen or the Spice Girls might be in between the historical and relevant stages, but the Big Bands have safely achieved the "classic" realm. How would the music turn people off? Even among those who don't listen to it exclusively, it's very much appreciated: lots of people continually turn out for swing classes and most college campuses have a variety of swing groups. I'd say on the whole it has a very stable and time-tested popularity.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the impromptu set-up for the restaurant? I think it would be pretty swanky. An elegant cocktail lounge, VIP seating for the show, great entertainment and service...
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  12. #72

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I think we've had this conversation elsewhere, but the California goldrush landscape and atmosphere is significantly different from the midwest that's presented in Frontierland. And, really, it's a crime to do CA and somehow *forget* the gold rush, like they did! (and no, Golden Dreams doesn't cut it, and it's gone now anyway)

    Hear hear! The high sierras are much different than the flat desert even if they both relate to gold. AGD is resoundingly right here.

    See, I think a more historical and unique theme will give it that very immersive quality. A rustic wilderness hangar just isn't as interesting, and "papers-over" the area instead of really developing it.
    Right again here, I really really like what he's done with the area, not so much the show, but the area is PERFECT! Really spot on.
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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I too don't like Soarin Over the World for California, but to take advantage of the look and feel of the ride, it would have to remain a hang glider attraction (expecially because that is what it is fameous as) and I know that military flights are never so smooth and glider-like. :P
    Oh, and I forgot to mention...most hang-gliders don't seat 87 people, so there are certain thematic breaks no matter what!
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  14. #74

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MistaDee View Post
    Right again here, I really really like what he's done with the area, not so much the show, but the area is PERFECT! Really spot on.
    she, btw...

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  15. #75

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I rather think not--Queen or the Spice Girls might be in between the historical and relevant stages, but the Big Bands have safely achieved the "classic" realm. How would the music turn people off? Even among those who don't listen to it exclusively, it's very much appreciated: lots of people continually turn out for swing classes and most college campuses have a variety of swing groups. I'd say on the whole it has a very stable and time-tested popularity.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the impromptu set-up for the restaurant? I think it would be pretty swanky. An elegant cocktail lounge, VIP seating for the show, great entertainment and service...
    I just think that going and listening to fake people sing dead peoples music as wax figure robots move along with it isn't especially captivating. Especially for 45 minutes.

    I thought that the USO show was supposed to be like they just set it up for the new people (could be wrong)

    I think my biggest problem is with the scale of the show. If it were littler like 15 minutes tucked away in a corner it would be more acceptable,but in my head I can't justify the size or expense.
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