View Poll Results: What do you think of this concept for a Condor Flats show?

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  1. #76

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Hi pianoman,

    I guess my question basically boils down to, why do you think the rotating show makes it more complicated? To my mind, it seems like the ideal way to present multiple performers (which I think is essential to keep it interesting) in the most stylistically straightforward way: one singer performs, then another takes the stage. Without the rotary mechanism, you'd need to have AA's in different places--like Country Bear Jamboree, where you have characters on balconies, the stage, the wall, the ceiling--which makes it MORE complicated from a story-telling point of view.
    That's where I think we differ in opinion. I'd want something more like the Country Bears as opposed to America Sings. To me, that ride system was put in place for The Carousel of Progress witch emphasized the unique ride system by incorporating it into the story("most carousels just go round and round without getting anywhere, but on this one, at every turn we'll be making progress"). Going off of the concept of America Sings(having never actually experienced it in person), the old Carousel of Progress ride system seemed to have little to do with the show. Also, you can have a rotating center stage without another audience behind to allow AA changes.

    And that ride system takes up a huge footprint and it's very distinctive from the outside. Even if you were to make it look like a normal building on the outside with rectangular edges, it would have to be a lot larger to encompass the circular ride system inside, and that's getting to the point where it's a waste of space. No matter how awesome or elaborate it could be, I think that giving that much space to a show is over doing it a little. I could however see it being like the country bears with a lot of different elements up and around the theater, plus, that adds interest to the show as opposed to it just being one area that you're looking at the whole time. I know that capacity would be impressive with a rotating theater, I'm just not convinced that it would be necessary.


    I think the scale is similar to the other classic Disney AA shows. I feel it's significant that it's not just a big band concert--it's a big band concert in the tumult of WWII (and the script & ambient action would play that aspect up). Capturing the zeitgeist of that era was a major priority for me in the design, and I think it "raises the stakes" a bit as far as the scale of the attraction.
    This sounds great, I'm just not sold on the rotating theater.

    I really do appreciate the feedback you've given, and I hope you don't mind that I'm still a bit confused as to what you're getting at in some places. I guess I'm not quite understanding what you refer to as the "general elaborateness," but if you could clarify I'd be happy to toss some ideas around about how things fit together. Thanks for your thoughts all the same!
    Sometimes I'm confused by my own vagueness . Anyways, I guess what I mean by "general elaborateness" is the rotating theater taking up a lot of space. Definitely not that I don't like detail, that's always a good thing.

  2. #77

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MistaDee View Post
    There's no suspension of disbelief.
    (This is the second time in two posts I've forgotten something in my reply...I must be getting old!)

    I'm going to have to disagree here--I really feel that the suspension of disbelief is a very solid point on this attraction. The queue theming, the recreation of the jazz club atmosphere, the urgency of the wartime short films, and especially the characters that surround you on the screens (with their elegant clothes & amusing behavior) all work together to clearly establish this as a very different time & place than what the average guest is used to.
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  3. #78

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    (This is the second time in two posts I've forgotten something in my reply...I must be getting old!)

    I'm going to have to disagree here--I really feel that the suspension of disbelief is a very solid point on this attraction. The queue theming, the recreation of the jazz club atmosphere, the urgency of the wartime short films, and especially the characters that surround you on the screens (with their elegant clothes & amusing behavior) all work together to clearly establish this as a very different time & place than what the average guest is used to.
    Regardless of the theming it's still just going to a concert in the 40s which really isn't that different from going to a concert now. Maybe like pianoman said it could be a traditional show scaled back a bit? To make it shorter and have the resturaunt up on the balcony and make it a little more independent of the show.... No that wouldn't work. I don't know bout this one.
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  4. #79

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Thanks for posting this. It's nice seeing these nicely detailed armchair imagineering threads.

    I will now commence with a super post. Sorry for the length, but I hope you can get something out of it.

    I love Big Band music, but I don't like the WWII theme at all. To me, when I think of the war, I don't think of the boom-time economy America was experiencing... I think of the death and destruction in Europe, which is something I would not like to be reminded of at Disneyland. Losing this layer and placing it in Hollywood land is a boon, in my eyes.

    Some other problems I see:
    • Timing people's meals
      Many other people have mentioned this, and you seem to shrug it off. This is a big deal. People are most likely paying big bucks for this and will expect normal table service. They will not take kindly if they happen to wish to talk about the days events at dinner, and here's a CM forcing them out. The unexpected delays that another poster mentioned are just unexpected...not rare. I'd wager your "normal" diners would account for 70% of dining experiences. 3 in 10 groups being "abnormal" would throw off the whole timetable and grind all the theaters to a halt.

      Consider designing the show that that people can be continuously seating throughout. Then you can be subtle about urging people out. Allow for the show to take 40ish minutes, and when people start seeing things repeated they will hurry themselves out. It works for the Sci-Fi Dine-in at DHS; the film is on a 40 min loop and that's about the longest people stay.
    • Mulitplicty of AAs
      You have a lot of the same AAs. While that pads the number you can tout the attraction has, no guest should see (or rather realize they see) all those AAs, thus making them practically wasted.

      In a similar vein, what happens when the trumpeter in Ella's band breaks down for his big solo, but is fine for Bings part? Of course the music cue would still happen, but it would shatter the illusion to see a bandmember frozen, or even gone for a refurb during only one act.
    • Realistic subjects
      There's a reason the original AA shows do not consist of any human ensemble or why PotC and HM have rather cartoony looking people. As humans ourselves we are all experts in how people act, move, and behave. As an audience, we are quick to notice anything off, so the AAs need to be damn good. I think the focus on each lead AA is longer than the average for American Adventure, which spreads it around so no one AA gets too much scrutiny.
    • Getting the Big Band feel
      When I go to a show involving big band music, I expect dancing. Good, lively dancing. I don't see how current AA technology could really get this feel (although I admit my mind goes right to the turntable dances in the HM ballroom...not current technology)



    My group for ImagiNations this year actually came up with a similar theater restaurant concept. The theme was different, but similar mechanism. It went through a lot of versions and still doesn't quite feel right. I'll share a little of our thought process and some specific things we had to consider.

    Our design started off pretty similar with a circular theater divided into six parts and the center stage with AA's rotated. Now ours was a bit different in that it had some of the sections dedicated to theater seating, rather than the seating in the back that you have. We did this to keep the viewing good, and to be able to provide different experiences in the dining area and the non-dining theater. Something we knew from the start was that we did not want to actually force people out of their dinner seats, and wanted the show to support continuous seating, like mentioned above.

    Like many people in this thread, we came to the conclusion that this was all very complicated, and costly. We had the multiplicity of AA's to account for scene changes as well. Lots of AA's while guests wouldn't see many at a time seemed an inefficient use of resources. We wanted to change that. We went from 6 theaters and reworked it to 4 - two dining, two non-dining. We would account for scene changes using similar ways to BCJ... something I know you dismissed for difficult storytelling, but who said imagineering was easy? We worked with it.

    But we still had problems. Too many scenes to present to the non-dining theater would be a hassle for CMs and guests alike and still some multiplicity with the AA's (specifically the CBJ style stages in each theater).

    So finally we cut it to two semi-circular theaters. This allowed us to have an A side and a B side for all the stages, center and side stages alike rotating about every 25 min or so -halfway through the meal. A and B each contain unique AAs so there is no multiplicity. Each side featured a certain type of music and has a specific routine for the diners and the non-diners to encourage viewing in both areas. The non-dining attraction part would just load for show A at one time and then show B at another. That's mostly it. We didn't submit this year, so we might hammer out the details and submit next year.

    It's neat that we came up with a similar concept for different themes/places.
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  5. #80

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MistaDee View Post
    I just think that going and listening to fake people sing dead peoples music as wax figure robots move along with it isn't especially captivating. Especially for 45 minutes.

    I thought that the USO show was supposed to be like they just set it up for the new people (could be wrong)

    I think my biggest problem is with the scale of the show. If it were littler like 15 minutes tucked away in a corner it would be more acceptable,but in my head I can't justify the size or expense.
    I guess I have more faith in the capacity of the modern AA's to give convincing performances.

    "Dead people's music"...ouch! I'd give it more credit than that, and it really does have lots of enduring popularity. For instance, "Candyman" came out only a few years ago and did quite well. I gather from your earlier posts that you're the only one in your circle that listens to this music--maybe you've just internalized your cohort's distaste for it a bit too much. I find it gets pretty wide appreciation. Even my little sister's friends who generally listen to whatever's marketed most heavily (teenagers!), always get enthused for some good old-fashioned swing.

    Regarding the USO show, it would be more of a USO community center sort of thing (they maintained a lot of these on the home front), so the USO would have been a presence at the base for at least a few years (assuming it takes place somewhere in '44-'45), so they're pretty well established. It's just that it shouldn't have an ultra-pulled together look like a Hollywood club, since this was a space that was refurbed during a war. And the officers' club would of course be very chic.

    You bring up an interesting point in scale. The way I see it, an attraction like this either needs to go big, or go home. Making it something of a grand scale that you can really sink your teeth into will probably get a bigger response than a watered-down version. This certainly applies as far as effects--choice of songs, sophistication of the AA's, the whole supporting cast to make it very lush. A half-hearted concert won't hold people's attention, but something that really thrusts you into the wartime spirit will.

    As for the length, to be quite honest the main determinant is the restaurant, and without it I would certainly have the show be shorter. However, I think that the market for high-end meals is definitely there, it gives the attraction the potential to be profitable, and it really adds a valuable component to giving the sense that you're really there, which I feel this attraction hinges on. Also, I see the restaurant as a major driving force in its popularity: lots of people might not set out time to see a show for itself, but would be happy to pay good money to be fed & entertained in such fine fashion. As for me, I would make a point to go to Blue Bayou one day and America Swings the next for my meals at the resort!

    So, it basically comes down to: would the attraction be more successful shorter, without a restaurant, or longer with it? I would have to say the latter, and if that limits the casual-spectator attendance somewhat, that's okay, because the demand for the restaurant & counter service would make up for it both financially and popularly.
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  6. #81

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    I'd just like to take a moment to thank everyone for their very thoughtful and detailed comments! I feel like I'm falling behind trying to discuss them all!

    I still have a few replies yet to get to, but if I've forgotten to answer anything please feel free to remind me!

    Anyway, it's totally a pleasure to ponder all the details with all of you & I'm looking forward to more of your thoughts!
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  7. #82

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman13 View Post
    That's where I think we differ in opinion. I'd want something more like the Country Bears as opposed to America Sings.
    That might just be a question of personal taste, so I'll discuss some of my rationale behind the design, but beyond that we kind of get into to-each-his-own territory.

    I feel the America Swings system is best for the theme of this particular attraction because it gives the illusion of being smaller than it is (inside the theater, of course). For a WWII theme I don't think a really large theater fits--it represents more opulence than would have been realistic at the time. A theater like CBJ with its very large seating area and multiple balconies doesn't represent something that would make thematic sense for the time period.

    Going off of the concept of America Sings(having never actually experienced it in person), the old Carousel of Progress ride system seemed to have little to do with the show.
    I was two when it closed, so I don't know firsthand either. But I do agree with that assessment. In this case, however, the ride system isn't shoved to the forefront of the show (because it's rotating behind a curtain; you're not).

    Also, you can have a rotating center stage without another audience behind to allow AA changes.
    True, but that means you're losing capacity, and AAs are hanging out backstage when they could be used to entertain more people.

    And that ride system takes up a huge footprint and it's very distinctive from the outside. Even if you were to make it look like a normal building on the outside with rectangular edges, it would have to be a lot larger to encompass the circular ride system inside, and that's getting to the point where it's a waste of space. No matter how awesome or elaborate it could be, I think that giving that much space to a show is over doing it a little.
    I'd be more inclined to agree *if* DCA were as packed with attractions as Disneyland, or if there were other claims on that space. But, as far as I know there are no other attractions in the works...

    Also, the building, while large, would do a lot to solidify the theme of the area and would be a major enhancement in its own right.

    Since the rotating part is actually quite small, the building itself could be smaller--it all depends on what the target capacity is, and how that is balanced out among the diners and spectators. So, taking out the last two rows of spectator seats would reduce the footprint considerably, if that reduction in capacity is required.

    I could however see it being like the country bears with a lot of different elements up and around the theater, plus, that adds interest to the show as opposed to it just being one area that you're looking at the whole time.
    See the thematic concerns above. Also, the dancers & diners in the current design would give you other places to look at.

    I know that capacity would be impressive with a rotating theater, I'm just not convinced that it would be necessary.
    I think there's really a lot to be said for really high capacities on rides even if they're not thrillers. One of the reasons I go on Pirates so much more than, say, the subs or Peter Pan is that it handles lines amazingly well. Often times, guests will only wait in line for something if it's a thrill ride, so a gentler ride really needs to have a high capacity.

    Another really significant benefit of the rotating theater is the nearly continuous start-time. If you have to plan to be somewhere by a specific time that can be a deterrent. For instance, I don't see Aladdin nearly as often as I would otherwise, because if I'm wondering around HPB and it's not near the start of the show, I don't want to wait around. Even waiting around in Muppets or HISTA/EO (which is 17ish minutes) can seem longer than it needs to be. On the other hand, a show starting every 8-9 minutes would be much more convenient.
    Last edited by AGD; 02-23-2010 at 01:21 AM.
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  8. #83

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MistaDee View Post
    Regardless of the theming it's still just going to a concert in the 40s which really isn't that different from going to a concert now.
    I'm falling behind so I'm just going to do a copy-paste here (sorry!):

    I feel it's significant that it's not just a big band concert--it's a big band concert in the tumult of WWII (and the script & ambient action would play that aspect up). Capturing the zeitgeist of that era was a major priority for me in the design, and I think it "raises the stakes" a bit as far as the scale of the attraction.
    In other words, I think a major goal for the attraction would be to make it different from a "nowadays" concert and really indulge in the details that make it different and special.
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  9. #84

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Semiquaver,

    First off, thanks so much for all the thought that went into this! I've done my fair share of detailed discussions of MCers' ideas, so I know it takes a lot of time & effort, and I appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Semiquaver View Post
    I love Big Band music, but I don't like the WWII theme at all. To me, when I think of the war, I don't think of the boom-time economy America was experiencing... I think of the death and destruction in Europe, which is something I would not like to be reminded of at Disneyland.
    Sorry, can't really help you there! I think for most people, it's a pretty acceptable topic of nostalgia, but I do understand where you're coming from. I will say that the death & destruction aspect would not be emphasized excessively, of course.

    Many other people have mentioned this, and you seem to shrug it off. This is a big deal. People are most likely paying big bucks for this and will expect normal table service. They will not take kindly if they happen to wish to talk about the days events at dinner, and here's a CM forcing them out. The unexpected delays that another poster mentioned are just unexpected...not rare. I'd wager your "normal" diners would account for 70% of dining experiences. 3 in 10 groups being "abnormal" would throw off the whole timetable and grind all the theaters to a halt.
    I do have to admit that I haven't specifically timed this out. I've tried to strike a reasonable balance between providing a "safe" amount of time to eat, and preventing the show from dragging.

    At least, people will be relatively discouraged from chatting too much, since the music would be fairly loud, and the chairs are fixed to face the stage, not your fellow diners. I don't know what the "wow" factor is as far as the show slowing people down--I'm afraid I don't exactly have a means to test that.

    For those who are merely slow, my general plan would be to ask who would like a carry-out container during the last act, which would still allow some time but would drop a hint.

    What effect do you think that portion size could play?

    Is it really that many "abnormal" diners? and would that proportion have an issue so large that they stray past the 45-minute mark?

    Consider designing the show that that people can be continuously seating throughout. Then you can be subtle about urging people out.
    I guess I've heard different reports on this--from my understanding, the continuous seating was what was bogging down the concepts back in the Tiki Room days. Attaching the restaurant concept to a show with a fixed end point was actually an attempt to deal with the lingering-diner issue. Perhaps the menu could state the length of the show, or something like that. What I was going for was that it would be the simple nature of the show mechanism would "enforce" the end the meal, rather than putting the responsibility on the wait staff to keep the flow in a continuous-seating version.

    Ideally, I'd also like the concert to have a beginning, middle, and an end, just for storytelling purposes.

    You have a lot of the same AAs. While that pads the number you can tout the attraction has, no guest should see (or rather realize they see) all those AAs, thus making them practically wasted.
    But, at the same time, all the AAs are in continuous use entertaining the crowds and supporting the attraction's capacity. Also, since they're the same it should lower production costs significantly.

    In a similar vein, what happens when the trumpeter in Ella's band breaks down for his big solo, but is fine for Bings part? Of course the music cue would still happen, but it would shatter the illusion to see a bandmember frozen, or even gone for a refurb during only one act.
    You're certainly right that timely maintenance would be a major issue. Practically, I think having the person missing (unless it's a principal character, of course) would be less distracting to the audience than having them be frozen.

    There's a reason the original AA shows do not consist of any human ensemble or why PotC and HM have rather cartoony looking people. As humans ourselves we are all experts in how people act, move, and behave. As an audience, we are quick to notice anything off, so the AAs need to be damn good. I think the focus on each lead AA is longer than the average for American Adventure, which spreads it around so no one AA gets too much scrutiny.
    Yes, I agree. I'm basically using GMWML and the Hall of Presidents as my models for this aspect, since they have the difficult task of being hyper-realistic. I will say that the technical achievements with the new Obama and Lincoln AAs have made great strides in being convincing. Actually, I think making someone look good giving a speech is actually more difficult than making someone look good singing, because in the later you can use broader, more "theatrical" gestures.

    When I go to a show involving big band music, I expect dancing. Good, lively dancing. I don't see how current AA technology could really get this feel (although I admit my mind goes right to the turntable dances in the HM ballroom...not current technology)
    Ah, this is why the dancers are on the video screens! You have live people dance to the soundtrack once, and then use that footage on the plasma screens. And yes, there would definitely be lots of lively dancing, with aerials, dips, drops, the whole bit. AAs definitely couldn't do that part. The performing AA's will be "dancing along" in the sense that they'll slightly sway/bounce to the beat like a normal performer would.

    Now ours was a bit different in that it had some of the sections dedicated to theater seating, rather than the seating in the back that you have.
    Part of that, I'll admit, comes from wanting to keep the diners as the VIPs, and to encourage people to spend the money at the restaurant for optimum seating .

    Like many people in this thread, we came to the conclusion that this was all very complicated, and costly.
    That, I'll freely admit to! The complications, I think, can be dealt with by modeling the loading/unloading and streamlining the restaurant processes as much as possible. As for the costs, I'll just have to acknowledge that I like to dream big! And hope the restaurant would be profitable, too.

    We had the multiplicity of AA's to account for scene changes as well. Lots of AA's while guests wouldn't see many at a time seemed an inefficient use of resources.
    I guess I feel differently about this--basically all AA shows that involve a ride system have AAs that you don't see all at a time--even something like CBJ hides most of the cast most of the time. With the circular theater (or a traveling ride system) at least they're constantly in use entertaining someone, so I feel they "earn their keep" in that respect.

    The non-dining attraction part would just load for show A at one time and then show B at another. That's mostly it. We didn't submit this year, so we might hammer out the details and submit next year.
    Oh, this is a really interesting idea...I might have to ponder this some more!! As MistaDee and I have been talking about, there is a certain tension between the optimum show length for diners and spectators. While I'd kind of like them to be in the same theater thematically (in my very idealized view, the diners at the club would be part of the "atmosphere" much the same way the Blue Bayou is to Pirates riders), but if there were a way to present a "half" version to the spectators that could really work.

    Hmm...lots of details to sort out! I think I'll have to sleep on it and I'll try to incorporate some of this in the next couple of days.

    Thanks again for such a great post & I hope your attraction ideas turn out really well for ImagiNations!
    Last edited by AGD; 02-23-2010 at 12:40 AM.
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  10. #85

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    I think we've had this conversation elsewhere, but the California goldrush landscape and atmosphere is significantly different from the midwest that's presented in Frontierland. And, really, it's a crime to do CA and somehow *forget* the gold rush, like they did! (and no, Golden Dreams doesn't cut it, and it's gone now anyway)

    See, I think a more historical and unique theme will give it that very immersive quality. A rustic wilderness hangar just isn't as interesting, and "papers-over" the area instead of really developing it.
    I think I saw that conversation but didn't take part. How though did the rafts fit in to the goldmine element? I'm sure we can both easily agree that the extreme sport gear needs to be taken off of GRR, but a mine train or something would be much better for a goldmine ride. As for papering it over, adding wilderness trails, a CBJ theater, trees, a lodge, and possibly a rollercoaster attraction in the challange trail area would also serve to develop the area nicely. The WWII hanger is interesting, but the ride inside just wouldn't fit. Of course, we could just move Soarin all together across the park alleviating the problem.

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I think I saw that conversation but didn't take part. How though did the rafts fit in to the goldmine element? I'm sure we can both easily agree that the extreme sport gear needs to be taken off of GRR, but a mine train or something would be much better for a goldmine ride. As for papering it over, adding wilderness trails, a CBJ theater, trees, a lodge, and possibly a rollercoaster attraction in the challange trail area would also serve to develop the area nicely. The WWII hanger is interesting, but the ride inside just wouldn't fit. Of course, we could just move Soarin all together across the park alleviating the problem.
    It's not like 8-person rafts really fit that well in a turn-of-the-century national park, either!

    I think if the rafts were redone to look wooden & old-fashioned, you could probably get away with it...

    The challenge trail is barely going to fit ONE of those ideas, but I agree that something needs to be done with it.

    As for the hangar...I honestly don't think Soarin' is so inextricably tied to recreational hang gliding...for one thing, you're riding much more like you would in a plane rather than a glider (seated, not prone), there are 86 other people around you, and the launch decor looks like an airfield, not an isolated cliff somewhere. A little bit of talk about a test flight, and there you go.

    Incidentally, a little bit of Wikipedia time and I found that gliders were in fact heavily used in WWII:

    Military glider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    (Not that this had anything to do with the initial concept to re-purpose Soarin'--I just learned this historical tidbit 2 minutes ago.)

    So, you're at the base and in your basic training you have to try out a glider in case you need a stealthy landing somewhere. Problem solved!
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  12. #87

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    It's not like 8-person rafts really fit that well in a turn-of-the-century national park, either!

    I think if the rafts were redone to look wooden & old-fashioned, you could probably get away with it...

    The challenge trail is barely going to fit ONE of those ideas, but I agree that something needs to be done with it.

    As for the hangar...I honestly don't think Soarin' is so inextricably tied to recreational hang gliding...for one thing, you're riding much more like you would in a plane rather than a glider (seated, not prone), there are 86 other people around you, and the launch decor looks like an airfield, not an isolated cliff somewhere. A little bit of talk about a test flight, and there you go.

    Incidentally, a little bit of Wikipedia time and I found that gliders were in fact heavily used in WWII:

    Military glider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    (Not that this had anything to do with the initial concept to re-purpose Soarin'--I just learned this historical tidbit 2 minutes ago.)

    So, you're at the base and in your basic training you have to try out a glider in case you need a stealthy landing somewhere. Problem solved!
    I dunno. Disneyland has always fudged the guest transportation vehicles. I don't think that that takes it out of theme one bit. As a national park, the timeline is much more open as well. Sure they were initiated near the end of the great depression, but there is no detail to make it that time specific.

    Also the one problem with most military gliders is the cockpit. The airport in my home town had a glider training program and they were not like the open air hang glider which the open bench seat better recreates with the wind in your face and the view all around.

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I dunno. Disneyland has always fudged the guest transportation vehicles. I don't think that that takes it out of theme one bit. As a national park, the timeline is much more open as well. Sure they were initiated near the end of the great depression, but there is no detail to make it that time specific.

    Also the one problem with most military gliders is the cockpit. The airport in my home town had a glider training program and they were not like the open air hang glider which the open bench seat better recreates with the wind in your face and the view all around.
    If they're fudging the ride vehicles, they could do just as well fudging it for a much more interesting gold rush theme, as for a national park theme. My point is that it would have to be equally fudged either way.

    Well, I think it's even LESS likely to have an open SPACESHIP, and yet Space Mountain gets away with it.
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  14. #89

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Haha well then it boils down to prefrence and if I know us, were stuck. :P Speaking of fudge though, why doesn't Disney sell it?!

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    Re: New AA show for Condor Flats (with LOTS of "concept art"!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Haha well then it boils down to prefrence and if I know us, were stuck. :P Speaking of fudge though, why doesn't Disney sell it?!
    The website says they do...

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