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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    One of the key differences between Nemo and Snow White is theme. Nemo simply doesn't fit Tomorrowland. There are so many exciting possibilities for our underwater future, why stick a contemporary story in there instead?
    That has been answered over and over again. You just don't like the answer.

    Attractions theme to "exciting possibilities for our underwater future" would grow stale in 5 or 10 years.... Living Seas is the perfect example of this.

    Disney is sick and tired of having to redo Tomorrowland every 5 years..... The theme is dead, long live the non-theme.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ah schucks
    How many of us have actually boarded a REAL submarine?
    Raises hand..... Was on subs when I was in the Navy, and even took a tourist sub ride off Waikiki when I was stationed in Hawaii. They do similar sub rides off Catalina. Real subs, real fish, real ocean.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    Raises hand..... Was on subs when I was in the Navy, and even took a tourist sub ride off Waikiki when I was stationed in Hawaii. They do similar sub rides off Catalina. Real subs, real fish, real ocean.
    Dude first you are an adult, don't forget about lil kiddies and families. Second for the price of one of those trips off of Catilina and or Hawaii or whereever, you can probably buy two kids admissions into Disneyland and your kids will probably enjoy it MORE. Last...the Navy bud? I was saying public subs, that don't count, phisssssshhhh.







  4. #34

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    You asked how many had been on subs....

    And the public does own those Navy subs, you're just not allowed on without signing away 8 years of your life.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    You asked how many had been on subs....

    And the public does own those Navy subs, you're just not allowed on without signing away 8 years of your life.
    KIDS DUDE KIDS?!?!







  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    That has been answered over and over again. You just don't like the answer.

    Attractions theme to "exciting possibilities for our underwater future" would grow stale in 5 or 10 years.... Living Seas is the perfect example of this.

    Disney is sick and tired of having to redo Tomorrowland every 5 years..... The theme is dead, long live the non-theme.
    No... I patently disagree with the answer. People say exciting ideas for the future won't work. Well, before it opened, people said Disneyland wouldn't work either. 50 years later, who was right?
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    No... I patently disagree with the answer. People say exciting ideas for the future won't work. Well, before it opened, people said Disneyland wouldn't work either. 50 years later, who was right?
    But, they've tried both....

    Disneyland worked.

    Repeatedly, "exciting ideas for the future" have grow stale and needed to be replaced over and over, while the exotic, fantasy rides set in long ago time have kept right on pleasing guests over and over.

    Quick, how many rides based on cartoons have been removed from the park... (not ones intending to be temp, like Gumi Bears overlay of boats or Woody's playhouse).

    Now, How many rides based on "exciting ideas for the future" have been removed?

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    But, they've tried both....

    Disneyland worked.

    Repeatedly, "exciting ideas for the future" have grow stale and needed to be replaced over and over, while the exotic, fantasy rides set in long ago time have kept right on pleasing guests over and over.

    Quick, how many rides based on cartoons have been removed from the park... (not ones intending to be temp, like Gumi Bears overlay of boats or Woody's playhouse).

    Now, How many rides based on "exciting ideas for the future" have been removed?
    Its easy to make that argument, the past remains- the present is colliding with future all the time. Every vision of the future since the 1950's has had to be updated to deal with changed in effects, materials, new knowledge, etc.

    However I do gravitate towards the first ideas of the future (Jules Verne rethemed Rockets, Spact Mtn <Disneyland Paris> ) or the ones that are so fantastic they are light years away (Star Tours)---think funny Jetson themed rides and looks for Tommorrowland---







  9. #39

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    Interesting... so because people have tried to cure cancer for years, they should just stop trying because so far, no cures have worked? Wonderful theory, but let's not try it.

    Again, hate to point out the obvious, but the majority of Tomorrowland attractions that have been pulled since New Tomorrowland (67) have been shows. Mission to Mars, Circlevision, Magic Journeys/EO, CoP/America Sings.

    Other shows that have left Disneyland:
    Mickey Mouse Club Theater
    Country Bear Jamboree

    And then of course, there's a plethora of fireworks shows, parades, and exhibits, plus experiences like Tahitian Terrace.

    Shows that have stayed:
    Fantasmic (Seasonal)
    Main St. Cinema (Too small for much besides more retail, often occupied by less than 4 people)
    Tiki Room (frequently rumored to be on the chopping block)
    Lincoln (going away temporarily...???)

    So, yes, shows don't have a long shelf life. But we're not talking about shows, we're talking about E Tickets.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    Interesting... so because people have tried to cure cancer for years, they should just stop trying because so far, no cures have worked? Wonderful theory, but let's not try it.
    It's a theme park, not one of the most deadly diseases known to the human race. Oh.. and people would pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a cure for cancer.... People aren't going to line up for the oppertunity to pay tens of thousands of dollars to experience "an exciting vision of a possible future".


    Quote Originally Posted by ModHatter
    Again, hate to point out the obvious, but the majority of Tomorrowland attractions that have been pulled since New Tomorrowland (67) have been shows.
    Seems you left out a couple... InnerSpace, PeopleMover, Subs...

    Let's expand the argument to include Future World... Horizons, World of Motion....

    We'll flip it around...

    Which rides in any Disney theme park are "a vision of a possible future", that operate today, are at least 10 years old, and haven't had major rework in the last 10 years?

  11. #41

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    I say as soon as possible(after current agreements) try like crazy to get Autopia upgraded with Fuel Cell Based Skateboard Cars like GM has(and showcases at the end of Test Track at Epcot).

    This showcases the future, makes for a fun ride, and exposes people to new technology. The putter putter cars on the current Autopia are smelly and gross and need to be relegated to the past.

    ---

    I'm all for dropping RR in TL for a Mission: SPACE like in Epcot- It's an awesome ride(just needs better graphics during the simulation).

    ---

    Loved the Bambi Dark Ride idea in CC. I love the idea of clearing the whole North area above Disneyland of all the employee junk(moving what they can below ground) and really tapping into this unused land.

    ---

    I want to be shrunk again like when I was a kid. That was an awesome ride, and with modern tech, could really make for a great time.

    ---

    The whole of TL is totally underused, plus, they could be making it multilevel, and do more with the whole place. So much unnused or wasted land and building space(in Anaheim and MK... and Paris...)

  12. #42

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    great gravy on the ladel or other such things :P

    why must all these discussions revert into this whole debate scheme

    ok first I shall discuss capacity of the park itself

    as many people have pointed out mainstreet is the main bottleneck, so logicaly if you had a way of widening mainstreet or giving another way to get through it would do wonders for traffic flow. Enter the idea of Liberty Street as mentioned in a thread a few days ago, if you were to utilize the backstage area and simply make the parade run full circle around the park rather then going one way stopping for a while then going the other, you might do wonders for the traffic going in and out of the park (especialy durring the fireworks and busy seasons, Liberty Street would be a good way to cut around the Mainstreet traffic and continue to the exit of the park


    now as far as these Nemo subs issues go I think that Tomorrowland has plenty of space as it is and the Lagoon/Matterhorn area has never felt like it is truly a part of the city of the future that Tomorrowland is. So I have often recommended letting that lagoon/Matterhorn area become it's own land (in label, it doesn't even need extra set pieces it just deserves a different name)

    as far as the overlay itself goes, it seems to me that most if not all of the set pieces will be taken out and this whole dry for wet thing will be put in giving the ride totaly different scenes. to me this should be enough to fool most people into finding this attraction totaly new (with the exception of the outside lagoon, though from what I've heard they'll be expanding the show building a bit?)

    I agree that the Autopia is a space hog but I do find it neat that they built the Subs under it, remeber if Disney really wanted to they could cut back the Autopia space and still use the bulk of that land or build several new rides ontop of the subs or something ooohh imagine being on a pathway ABOVE those waterfalls and looking down, there are many picturesque things Disney could do with that

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneySavor
    I say as soon as possible(after current agreements) try like crazy to get Autopia upgraded with Fuel Cell Based Skateboard Cars like GM has(and showcases at the end of Test Track at Epcot).

    This showcases the future, makes for a fun ride, and exposes people to new technology. The putter putter cars on the current Autopia are smelly and gross and need to be relegated to the past.
    Arg... fuel cells....

    They're 10 times as expensive to build as gas, the fuel/mile cost is about 4 times as expensive as gas, the fuel loves to go BOOM in a way that makes gasoline look like water in comparison...... AND, even more poluting than gasoline*.

    * currently, the vast majority of hydrogen is extracted by burning coal (releasing green house gasses) to super heat water, then injecting the super heated water into natural gas to break it down into Hydrogen and green house gasses.

    This is by far the cheapest method of getting hydrogen for fuel cells, but releases even more green-house gasses than just burning gasoline in our cars. Other methods involve using electricity to extract the hydrogen from water. Most of our electricty comes from..... burning coal and natural gas.... Electrolysis is even more expensive and polluting than the method of extracting from natural gas with super heater water.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider
    why must all these discussions revert into this whole debate scheme
    Debate is the result of people not agreeing, and seeking to persuade each other. There are a few types of threads...

    1) Direct question. Why is Aladdin not showing on Friday this week?
    Answer.. that's it. Thread dies.

    2) What is your favorite...?
    People answer, few read the answers, there is no room for debate (your favorite is your favorite), the thread dies.

    3) What should..... what do you think... Of course, the dreaded "DCA sucks because..."
    Everyone has an opinion, and the thread stays alive as people debate the pros and cons of the various options/positions.


    So, to avoid these dabate threads, evey topic has to be a specific question or asking for your "favorite this or that". OR, you could all just agree with me...... not holding my breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider
    ok first I shall discuss capacity of the park itself

    as many people have pointed out mainstreet is the main bottleneck,
    It is a major bottleneck, but there are many others. There are certain attractions that most guests will consider a "must do"... The capacity of those rides begins to be a major limitation on capacity of the park. Most people would consider Pirates a "must do". They'll start getting major angry guests if 16-hours of full operation can only process 40,000 people, but Disney let 60,000 people into the park that day... A full 1/3rd are simply out of luck. Sorry, don't get to ride the "best" ride in the park.

    Fantasmic! viewing space and parade viewing space are other limitations. There are many other traffic choke points (Critter Country, Adventureland, Hub).

    So, Disney could indeed do MAJOR rework of the park to up capacity. Widen walkways by giving up shop space, more walkways, reroute the parade, better Fantamic! viewing area, extend the park out behind Frontierland, continue to add E-Tickets and other rides.....

    But, for the same amount of money they could just build a park in the parking lot, and increase "resort" capacity from 13-14 million a year to 20+ million a year.

    This is the option DisCo chose. Make a second gate rather than just squeezing more peope in and out of the existing gate.

    Perhaps 10 years from now, Disney Adventure Park will have grown to completely fill the Timon lot and will be pulling 8 million guests a year (without 2-for-1 ticket offers)...

    Then Disney will build a 3rd gate in the Strawberry Field.... Perhaps someday(15 years after it opens) that park will also be at capacity.... The resort may be attracting 30 million people a year to its 3 gates instead of the pre-DCA cap of 13-14 million.



    Then, for Disney's 75th birthday, they'll be doing all these "tricks" that will be needed to increase Disneyland-park's capacity above the 14 million a year mark.

    Until then, there are better uses of the money.... like fixing DCA so that someday we'll get that 3rd gate.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    It's a theme park, not one of the most deadly diseases known to the human race. Oh.. and people would pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a cure for cancer.... People aren't going to line up for the oppertunity to pay tens of thousands of dollars to experience "an exciting vision of a possible future".

    Seems you left out a couple... InnerSpace, PeopleMover, Subs...

    Let's expand the argument to include Future World... Horizons, World of Motion....

    We'll flip it around...

    Which rides in any Disney theme park are "a vision of a possible future", that operate today, are at least 10 years old, and haven't had major rework in the last 10 years?
    A) Saying that something that hasn't been done can't be done is false.

    B) Customers don't have to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to see a vision of the future. A family of four will spend about $200, and get three other Lands, and four additional themed environments.

    So, now that the hyperbole is out of the way...

    Yes, ATIS was removed to make way for Star Tours. Coincidentally, other such occurrences include Nature's Wonderland, Country Bears, the Mickey Mouse Club Cartoon Theater, Indian Village... It was also a rather foolish choice. Considering America Sings closed just two years after, without replacement for 10 years, and Mission to Mars followed suit four years later, the easternmost part of Tomorrowland wasn't doing so well, and creating an attraction that would draw people into the heart of Tomorrowland again would have been the better choice.

    PeopleMover... again, still operating and drawing decent crowds in WDW. It suffered largely because that area of the park was laboring still under so many show-based attractions, including the two aforementioned closed attractions.

    Submarines. The park's first E ticket. Back in 1959, before the World's Fair changed the capabilities of Disney attractions forever. It is the Jungle Cruise of Tomorrowland, but with much higher maintenance and accessibility issues. As well as update issues.

    Not exactly a strong case for killing Tomorrowland for the sake of not having to update everything every 5 or 10 years. It's actually support for the argument in favor of an attraction mix that includes more rides. After all, would Tomorrowland have been better served by having Star Tours and ATIS, or Star Tours and Mission to Mars?

    So, to re-address the issue I've already brought up, Future World did not have a good attraction mix wither. Haunted Mansion is a pseudo-thrill ride because, while the attraction just uses an Omnimover, the subject itself carries a wow factor. PotC has a thrilling subject, and two drops to add a pinch of vintage thrill. But the majority of pre-Epcot thrills were coming from Matterhorn, Space Mountain, and Big Thunder. Future World was a world devoid of "thrill." As previously mentioned, the closest Epcot got to thrill for a long time was Maelstrom, and then Body Wars.

    The Future World of the 80s may have appealed to a certain demographic (myself included), but it didn't offer enough to a broad audience. It needed more excitement. But the story of Figment also proves that a ride doesn't have to travel at 60mph to be endearing. For that matter, Livin' with the Land, which isn't your typical thrill ride, manages to have huge queues despite being high capacity.

    Aside from the ride mix, of course, part of Future World's real problem lies with the issue of sponsorship. I've actually read that Horizons was no longer structurally sound, but I don't know if that's accurate or just a smokescreen. What I do know is that the loss of sponsorship was what sealed the ride's fate. Similar situation with WoM. GM's original contract expired, and to keep the sponsorship, Disney had to agree to Imagineer a whole new concept based solely on automobiles.

    So, to asnwer your final question...I'm hard pressed to think of any major attractions that haven't gotten a lot of work if they've been open more than 10 years. Splash has had to change its basic vehicle design twice now. HM gets a Holiday overlay every year now, and is still adding effects. PotC gets new AAs, and created the Gluttony scene in 1997, not to mention the Moonlight addition being talked about. Indy just turned 10, but has already been plagued by technical difficulties. BTMRR has had two major incidents and got re-tracked... So to apply a different standard to the East Side than to the West seems... unbalanced? But again, to re-restate the obvious, just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

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