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  1. #16

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    So I wonder if and what the significance was of choosing King Richard the Lionheart?

  2. #17

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChessurInWonderland View Post
    So I wonder if and what the significance was of choosing King Richard the Lionheart?
    Maybe they picked it up cheap from his estate sale?

    I also checked on the designs outside the shield--they do mean something: "heraldic achievement." Basically just fancy fluff, not symbolizing the family. I suppose anyone could have it if they achieved something "heraldic."

  3. #18

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Here's another question... do we know for a fact that what is there know has always been there? Has the crest been changed in the past?

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  4. #19

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Here's another question... do we know for a fact that what is there know has always been there? Has the crest been changed in the past?
    Oh, it definitely HAS NOT always been there! Believe it or not, there was just a blank space there for many years.

    EDIT: Looks like it was added between June and July, 1965--the obvious supposed reason being for the Park's Tencennial. Here's a good shot from our friend Daveland, April 1965:



    He has a photo from June showing a blank, and one from July showing it in place, but this one is the best one that showed it blank.
    Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 04-07-2010 at 10:11 AM.

  5. #20

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    I was thinking that's how it was... I seem to recall photos with nothing there from the early days. So do we know when it was added? Finding out the year it was added to the castle might furnish some clues as to why this particular crest was used.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  6. #21

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    So do we know when it was added? Finding out the year it was added to the castle might furnish some clues as to why this particular crest was used.
    See my edited post above yours.

  7. #22

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Ok, they put it in for the tencennial. That's fine. I can't think of a reason for picking this particular crest though... other than someone just liked it? Maybe they got a couple together and that was the favorite one? Doesn't make sense though... Walt was still alive at that point and would have been involved in this. I doubt it was done under his nose or anything. Would Walt have used that crest simply for the aesthetic of it or would he have a reason to pick it?

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  8. #23

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Disney was known for incorporating "used" details (details from the real world) into the parks: Cannons and lamps on Main Street, real locomotives, real bell and headlight on the MT, etc.). Maybe someone found this piece and just thought it added a bit of interest to that empty pad over the drawbridge? Walt was known to frequent England--maybe he found it there in an antique store? I'm not sure we can assume at this point is was custom-made--an actual choice someone made to use this particular design.

  9. #24

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Disney was known for incorporating "used" details (details from the real world) into the parks [...] Walt was known to frequent England--maybe he found it there in an antique store? I'm not sure we can assume at this point is was custom-made--an actual choice someone made to use this particular design.
    Agreed. He did do this a lot. It also has their air of impulsiveness about it that feels Walt-ish. "Hey, this would look great on my castle!"

    Lacking any sort of other evidence, this at least sounds very plausible.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  10. #25

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Maybe it was also to contribute to the theme of a European village? I was reading this: British Royal Coat of Arms and Motto, and it says that King Richard used the three lions to symbolize England. I'm not sure where exactly Sleeping Beauty takes place, but maybe it was meant to symbolize where you were going when entering the castle and Fantasyland

  11. #26

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    So was this a test Steve? I thought we covered the crest in another thread...those darn Disney myths refuse to die!
    Yaye!

  12. #27

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    It makes sense. King Arthurs Carrousel, there are Knights Armors. It fits nicely. I'm sure Walt added it as a theme element.


    "We believed in our idea - a family park where parents and children could have fun- together."

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  13. #28

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    No, no test. I didn't know what family the crest symbolized (except I knew it wasn't Disney's). Now we know it was King Richard the Lionheart's!

  14. #29

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    I have updated the Sleeping Beauty Castle page on Wikipedia. I removed the reference to it being the Disney crest and placed links to what is there and the Disney coat of arms. Hopefully this will help dispel the myth for casual searchers.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  15. #30

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Wow, there are a lot of misconceptions flying around this thread.

    Firstly, a lot of people seem to be assuming that everyone with the same surname has the same coat of arms. I can guarantee you that isn't true. Technically, a coat of arms doesn't even belong to a family, it belongs to an individual--typically the male head of the family, with his brothers and sons bearing variations on his shield to show that they are subordinate to him, and any unmarried sisters or daughters bearing his arms on a diamond-shaped shield called a lozenge. (Of course, that was in Ye Olden Dayes, and in this more egalitarian times, women can be armigerous all on their own. Yay progress!)

    But that's rather beside the point. More pertinent to this thread is the fact that two people with the same surname can have very different arms if they are not actually related. That is, there may be more than one Disney lineage in the world, and the fact that you can find a shield with fleurs-de-lis on it for the "Disney" family does not automatically mean that another "Disney" family doesn't have lions.

    Another point that must be made is that you can't tell just from the number and type of the devices (images) on the shield which person or family it belongs to. There is also the facet of tincture, or color. Since the shield on Sleeping Beauty Castle has always been a uniform concrete gray or painted gold, it's not really much of a clue. It could belong to anyone whose achievement features three lions passant in pale, whether those lions are gold on a red field, or blue on a white field, or green on a gold field, or whatever.

    Also, after doing a little quick research of my own, I can safely say that whoever was the original bearer of that shield, it wasn't Richard Coeur-de-Lion. You know why? Because the lions on Richard Coeur-de-Lion's shield have their heads turned to face the viewer. This may seem trivial, but it's a very important distinction in heraldry. Lions in a walking pose with their heads facing the viewer aren't even called lions in heraldry, but--rather confusingly--leopards.

    It seems the identity of the coat of arms remains a mystery for now.

    More heraldry tidbits for your edification:

    The thingy over the drawbridge is not a crest. It is a coat of arms or an achievement of arms. The crest properly refers only to the part sitting atop the helm (helmet), in this case another walking lion. (It's not unusual to repeat an aspect of the shield design in the crest.)

    The curlicues are called mantling. In heraldric design, they originated as a stylized representation of the cloth a knight would wear over his helmet in order to keep from overheating on the battle or tournament field. If you look at the coat of arms designs in the Castle Heraldry Shoppe, you'll see that the mantling usually replicates the main colors of the shield. Its function is merely decorative, unlike other "extras" which sometimes indicate important facts about the individual or family.

    Other prominent coats of arms in Fantasyland include the shields around the roof of the Carrousel, which are those traditionally assigned to the Knights of the Round Table, and the ones decorating the Matterhorn chalet, which represent the cantons of Switzerland.

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