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  1. #31

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Well, it sure strikes me as signficant that every image of a "Disney" coat of arms shows three fleur de li. Not one shows three "leopards."

    So... if three leopards don't represnet King Richard...who do they represent?

  2. #32

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    You misunderstood me. Three "leopards" do represent King Richard...but the lions on the shield over the Castle drawbridge aren't "leopards." A "leopard," in heraldry, is a lion in a walking pose with its head turned toward the viewer, and the lions on the Disneyland shield are facing the direction they are walking.

    Anyway my point is that we have no way of knowing whose shield that is, because it is not colored. Maybe when I have more time, I'll Google "three lions passant in pale" and see if anything good comes up.

  3. #33

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    The Plot Thickens....

    Apparently there is nothing that cannot happen today. - Mark Twain
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  4. #34

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    My understanding of this story always dealt with the three shields on the back of Sleeping Beauty Castle.

    http://deannamichelle84.files.wordpr...2009-047-2.jpg

    Take a look at the shield on the left.

  5. #35

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karalora View Post
    Maybe when I have more time, I'll Google "three lions passant in pale" and see if anything good comes up.
    All the sites under that search make no distinction between lion or leopard. All "lions" are shown facing the viewer.

    I have been unable to find a view of a lion facing his direction of travel.

  6. #36

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Found something. EDIT: Nope, checked, the Edward III coat of arms was three lions passant guardant. Once again back to the drawing block.

    They match those on the Royal Coat of Arms under Edward III which was quartered with the French coat of arms (as his mother was French and he claimed the kingdom of France).
    heraldry - coat of arms, King George III
    Scroll down to first image (1340 - 1603)

    SBC Coat of Arms
    Last edited by mycroft16; 04-07-2010 at 01:36 PM.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  7. #37

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    My understanding of this story always dealt with the three shields on the back of Sleeping Beauty Castle.
    Good thought, lazyboy, but that shield is actually the national coat of arms of France. Now I'm curious as to the identity of the other two! I'll have to work out the blazons and run some more searches!

    All the sites under that search make no distinction between lion or leopard. All "lions" are shown facing the viewer.
    Yeah...not all heralds do make the distinction. It can get confusing.

    I just did a Google Image search for that phrase, in quotes, and most of the relevant results had the lions facing their direction of travel. Here's one. Here's another. And a third. A fourth. You get the idea. If you aren't putting the phrase in quotes, you might be getting references to "lions passant guardant," which is another way of describing a heraldic leopard.

    Just for good measure, here is the first page of results of an image search for "Richard the Lionhearted coat of arms." I've clicked through to a few subsequent pages and haven't found a version where the lions are facing their own direction instead of the viewer.

    I hope you don't think I'm trying to burst your bubble, Steve. I'm actually finding this discussion fascinating and want to solve the mystery with as high a degree of confidence as I can!
    Last edited by Karalora; 04-07-2010 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #38

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karalora View Post
    "lions passant guardant," which is another way of describing a heraldic leopard.
    You have fascinated me with reading about this now.

    Actually, from what I'm reading (here) on page 192, leopards in heraldry actually have spots on them whereas lions don't. They are not interchangeable and both lions and leopards can be referred to as passant, passant guardant and passant reguardant. Lions are on page 182.

    So the coat of arms on the castle is three lions passant in pale.
    The crest atop the helm is a single lion passant guardant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karalora View Post
    I'm actually finding this discussion fascinating and want to solve the mystery with as high a degree of confidence as I can!
    Same here... and please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm new to this.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  9. #39

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChessurInWonderland View Post
    Maybe it was also to contribute to the theme of a European village? I was reading this: British Royal Coat of Arms and Motto, and it says that King Richard used the three lions to symbolize England. I'm not sure where exactly Sleeping Beauty takes place, but maybe it was meant to symbolize where you were going when entering the castle and Fantasyland
    England's soccer team still wears three lions.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  10. #40

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve degaetano View Post
    wonder if we should start a movement to re-make the one on the castle into the disney version?


    im so there lets do it

  11. #41

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karalora View Post
    I hope you don't think I'm trying to burst your bubble, Steve. I'm actually finding this discussion fascinating and want to solve the mystery with as high a degree of confidence as I can!
    Not at all! I'm learning a lot here myself. I love a good Disney mystery, and this is one of the better ones.

  12. #42

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Actually, from what I'm reading (here) on page 192, leopards in heraldry actually have spots on them whereas lions don't. They are not interchangeable and both lions and leopards can be referred to as passant, passant guardant and passant reguardant. Lions are on page 182.
    I've read sources saying otherwise. The field of heraldry is not entirely consistent, and sometimes the details of a design were left up to the painter. Nonetheless, whatever you call a walking lion, it does make a difference which way he is facing, and the shield on the Castle is almost certainly not meant to be that of Richard Coeur-de-Lion. That one is too well established as depicting lions passant guardant.

    I've done a little preliminary searching of the middle and right shields on the back of the Castle, but haven't turned up anything so far. I'm at work right now and can't do a more in-depth search.

  13. #43

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karalora View Post
    The field of heraldry is not entirely consistent, and sometimes the details of a design were left up to the painter.
    That should make this search more interesting.

    Nonetheless, whatever you call a walking lion, it does make a difference which way he is facing, and the shield on the Castle is almost certainly not meant to be that of Richard Coeur-de-Lion.
    Definitely agree there. This is most definitely not that one.

    I'm wondering if this is one for Dave and the archives?

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  14. #44

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    That should make this search more interesting.
    And longer...

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    I'm wondering if this is one for Dave and the archives?
    Possibly...but I think this is a search better suited to someone who seems to have knowledge in the field--like Karalora. Dave might be able to tell us where the piece came from, though. I can e-mail him tomorrow.

  15. #45

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    Re: So...whose is it, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Wonder if we should start a movement to re-make the one on the castle into the Disney version?
    Let's do it.
    "It has that thing - the imagination, and the feeling of happy excitement - I knew when I was kid."
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