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  1. #3061

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Since I have no memory of seeing it before, and to be sure I am dying to ask this question :
    How did the Ghost Host get up to the rafters to hang himself? There are no visible ladders or stairs and I would'nt think he climbed in through one of the windows. Another question is if he used the ceiling of the stretch room as a floor, would'nt his weight cause him to fall through this seemingly unsupported ceiling? Plaster is pretty flimsy and many gags have people fall through ceilings in old movies and cartoons.

  2. #3062

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    This is bound to become an issue, so it's good to deal with it now rather than later.

    The HBG2 Doctrine.

    1. WHEREAS Pepe Le Queue (hereafter "PLQ") is "canon," like it or not, because it has the authority of WDI behind it,

    2. AND WHEREAS PLQ is the product of Imagineers who do NOT expect you to incorporate anything into anything, logically,

    3. AND WHEREAS the contents of PLQ are evidently intended as stand-alone gags, only loosely connected with existing Mansionalia,

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that we, the undercybersigned, understand "taking PLQ seriously as canon" to mean, "Don't bother trying to tie its contents into the larger whole via rational analysis. Nothing is PLQ can be used to prove or disprove anything anywhere beyond the borders of PLQ." Furthermore, such extensions of PLQ into the interior of the HM as may be found (for example, Maude's portrait) should also be ignored in any such discussions, being manifestly the product of the same WDI mindset, which considers such analysis invalid.

    It may be noted and acknowledged that it is an awkward fact that the old tombstones are swallowed up in PLQ, and it may be questioned whether they can still be referenced in the old way, making surgical excisions from PLQ as it were, based strictly on the knowledge of their prior existence.

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the old tombstones may still be referenced in the old way, despite the fact that they are now in the belly of the beast.

    It may be further noted and acknowledged that there are attractive elements in PLQ, like new tribute tombs. However, they too are the product of the current WDI mentality.

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that any temptation to enlist new tombstones in the service of argument outside the PLQ must be resisted. Enjoy 'em. Just don't use 'em in connection with anything else at the Mansion, as this is in violation of the Imagineers' intent.

    It may further be noted and acknowledged that the new Hitchhiking Ghost mirror gag is also official WDI canon, and at present it does not seem to present any logical difficulties. However, that must be taken as purely coincidental, since this too is the product of a mindset that considers rational HM analysis invalid.

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that nothing distinctively new in the current HHG gag can be used to support or refute any argument that extends beyond their appearance in the mirrors. The bats in Ezra's hat, for example, mean nothing in any discussion of the character of Ezra. This too is in full accordance with the philosophy of the WDI Imagineers who created and installed the new effect, which philosophy deems such extrapolations invalid.

    Witness my hand (quavering on top of the cane),
    HBQ2
    Is this an elaborate way of saying. "I spoke with Carsillo"?

  3. #3063

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    How did the Ghost Host get up to the rafters to hang himself? There are no visible ladders or stairs and I would'nt think he climbed in through one of the windows. Another question is if he used the ceiling of the stretch room as a floor, would'nt his weight cause him to fall through this seemingly unsupported ceiling? Plaster is pretty flimsy and many gags have people fall through ceilings in old movies and cartoons.
    The room likely served a different purpose before it became the stretching portrait gallery we see today.

    Concept art for WDW's 2007 Re-Haunting shows a rickety staircase and railing as part of the familiar cupola, with bats flying through a window.
    (Though the art is labeled "Grand Staircase.")

  4. #3064

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I feel like it is more of a "the new Queue cannot be used in analyzing anything in the HM due to it's complete and utter clash with the rest of the attraction".

  5. #3065

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that nothing distinctively new in the current HHG gag can be used to support or refute any argument that extends beyond their appearance in the mirrors. The bats in Ezra's hat, for example, mean nothing in any discussion of the character of Ezra. This too is in full accordance with the philosophy of the WDI Imagineers who created and installed the new effect, which philosophy deems such extrapolations invalid.

    Witness my hand (quavering on top of the cane),
    HBQ2[/COLOR]
    Does this mean that the new physical (animatronic) appearance of the HHGs cannot be used in an argument since they are "Distinctively new"

  6. #3066

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    You're probably sick of it by now, but here's

    More speculation on the Ghost Host...

    Jim Hill wrote a Haunted Mansion screenplay in the '90s that was optioned by Disney.
    The script is available to read here: http://doombuggies.com/media/misc/hauntedmansion.pdf
    It's very cheesy, and I actually think it would have been worse than the Eddie Murphy movie.

    Jim Hill has said that before writing the script, he had discussions with Marc Davis about the attraction's backstory, characters, etc.
    In his script, the guy hanging from the rafters in the cupola is the bride character's father.
    Now Jim could have just made up that part, but it does make you wonder.
    Could Constance's dear old dad be the Ghost Host? Did he teach her how to handle a hatchet?
    It does fit the criteria of him not being the master of the mansion.

    Most, if not all, of the characters in Jim Hill's script were named after Imagineers.
    In the script, the hanging guy is Clarence Fowler.
    The bride's name is Kathleen.
    The villain is Jacob Gracey (AKA Captain Bloodworth).
    The hitchhiking ghosts are
    Baxter, the scruffy kennelmaster;
    Gordon, the painfully thin liveryman;
    Mumford, the rotund family butler.
    This was obviously before the Gus, Ezra, and Phineas fan fiction names became popular.
    Last edited by SmellyOrangutan; 05-01-2011 at 10:22 PM.

  7. #3067

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    The Ghost Host could very well be Constance's father, but there is some information that may argue against that. For instance, the Ghost Host announced the beginning of the Mansion's 40th Anniversay event by announcing the "wedding of two of our guests while they dwell in their corruptible mortal state." This means that George and Constance probably moved in after the Ghost Host had died. If he was Constance's father, wouldn't he be walking her down the aisle during the ceremony? Before guests entered the Mansion during the events, George and Constance stood out on the balcony to cut their wedding cake and greet guests. George mentions that the Mansion is his "humble abode." That means that George would be the owner of the Mansion, thus the reason why she killed him. So the Ghost Host probably is Constance's dad.

    But the Ghost Host could be Constance's last husband. Although it seems as if George is the fifth and final husband, she could have very well married another. Since she appears old in the stretching room portrait she may have married another old man (The Hatchet Man looks old) to get his wealth. Too smart for her, the husband turned the table, took Constance's hatchet and did her in. Possibly horrified by what he did and what may happen to him if caught, he hid her body in the attic and hung himself nearby, thus becoming the Ghost Host. This could explain the blood on the Hatchet Man's clothes in a rendition of his portrait many years ago. Then again Constance wasn't around then. Another theory.

    The Ghost Host could have just been a simple butler who couldn't take his job anymore and took his own life. He could have been a foolish mortal who wandered into the Mansion one day, got caught in the stretching room and hung himself when he found no way out. Or perhaps he is a homage to the Axeman, a serial killer from New Orleans. For all we know he could be the Axeman retired to the Mansion. He never was caught.

    Axeman of New Orleans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Theatrical Roles: Various Roles (The Laramie Project), Fred (Oklahoma!), Oberon (Shakespeare in Hollywood), Hero (A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum), Valere (The Miser), Moonface Martin (Anything Goes), Thenardier/Laborer/Army Officer/Ensemble (Les Miserables), Franz (The Sound of Music), Tobias Ragg (Sweeney Todd), Tinman (The Wiz), Elles Dad/Winthrop/Ensemble (Legally Blonde), William Barfee/Leaf's Dad/Jesus Christ (25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee), Fiddler on the Roof (Rabbi), The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (Muff Potter/Ensemble), Shrek the Musical (Lord Farquaad)

  8. #3068

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Or perhaps he is a homage to the Axeman, a serial killer from New Orleans. For all we know he could be the Axeman retired to the Mansion. He never was caught.

    Axeman of New Orleans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I actually remember looking into this a few years ago, but I never posted anything about it.
    Interesting idea.

    Also, a "hatchet man" is a phrase meaning "hired killer." The Ghost Host could have been a guy hired by Constance to kill her husbands.

    But the Ghost Host could be Constance's last husband.
    Could be. But I would hope that her last husband is the Hatbox Ghost.

  9. #3069

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I'm pretty sure the 40th Anniversary event hardly counts as ride canon
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  10. #3070

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Ya I wouldn't count it with the canon.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ic-sQEZUXM...atchetman2.jpg

    Psychotic New Orleans serial killer anyone?
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  11. #3071

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I'm pretty sure the 40th Anniversary event hardly counts as ride canon
    It was poorly performed, but they could have been following WDI's official story.
    We just don't know.

    In the show,
    The reverend was named Bloodmere.
    As a ghost, George called himself master of the mansion.
    Constance as a ghost had a slit throat.

    They combined Madame Leota with the Ghost Hostess, which irked me.
    Last edited by SmellyOrangutan; 05-01-2011 at 08:27 PM.

  12. #3072

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    So that eliminates the Ghost Host being Constance's final husband. I guess that means that George is the last one. Maybe George is the Hatbox Ghost?
    Theatrical Roles: Various Roles (The Laramie Project), Fred (Oklahoma!), Oberon (Shakespeare in Hollywood), Hero (A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum), Valere (The Miser), Moonface Martin (Anything Goes), Thenardier/Laborer/Army Officer/Ensemble (Les Miserables), Franz (The Sound of Music), Tobias Ragg (Sweeney Todd), Tinman (The Wiz), Elles Dad/Winthrop/Ensemble (Legally Blonde), William Barfee/Leaf's Dad/Jesus Christ (25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee), Fiddler on the Roof (Rabbi), The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (Muff Potter/Ensemble), Shrek the Musical (Lord Farquaad)

  13. #3073

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by SmellyOrangutan View Post
    Well,

    I know I'm going against the popular opinion/belief here, but to me the HM has always existed within a highly fantastical world. Not as a jumbled cartoon environment, but definitely a fantasy world - albeit one that resembles our own.

    A world in which the folklore, myths, and legends of the supernatural are true.
    Not just ghosts - but witches, vampires, werecats, Medusa, the Flying Dutchman, etc.
    Rolly's Museum of the Weird was all about these supernatural creatures and things.
    Of course, the supernatural stuff is rare in this fictional world, but it does exist, and the Haunted Mansion is a magnet to it.

    My problem with the new queue is its horrendous execution.
    It ruins the unsettling mood that was supposed to set up the Haunted Mansion experience.
    It's too much too soon. It's cartoony, cheesy, and obnoxious.
    Stylistically, the Dread Family busts look like they came straight out of Mr. Toad. The rest of the busts in the mansion look like real human beings.
    I agree that a sea serpent shouldn't be wrapped around the bust, because at this point the experience should more closely resemble the real world. The supernatural should gradually increase as you journey deeper into the Haunted Mansion. Sea serpents can exist, but it's too soon.
    Much here worth discussing.

    I note first of all that the non-ghost supernaturalia you list is to be found in two places: Mansion artwork and Museum of the Weird items.

    Artwork can depict anything the artist and his client might like to see. I see paintings of Dracula in the real world: does that mean vampires must exist? The supernatural changing of the portraits means little since that's the ghosts trying to freak you out; it's not necessarily a validation of the contents of the paintings as actually existing somewhere. Some of the mansion's residents evidently loved the occult, myths and legends, vampires and witches, etc. Madame Leota evidently had a connection with the place in life, since she's buried in the family plot. Well, she was into the occult pretty seriously, I'd say. Like many people in the real world, she believes that witches and wizards are real. We never actually see any of these kinds of things in the HM, though. Only ghosts.

    As for the Museum of the Weird, I note that if it were to be realized, it would need a separate venue. That was what kept Walt awake all night. He knew this stuff could not be used in the HM as it was developing. That was exactly the problem. Putting it all in a museum, an adjunct to the HM, was Walt's idea, not Rolly's. Some of the figures in the MoW artwork (Mistress of Evil, Spiderweb woman, the Werecat, etc.) are simply characters, not museum displays (unless they were going to be stuffed?). This was when Rolly hoped for a full-on fantasy haunted house as the governing concept, which was not to be.

    Have you ever been to one of the Ripley's Believe it or Not museums? There's one in San Francisco I've been to. I'm pretty sure something like that was what Walt was thinking of, except on steroids. They are creepy, weird, macabre places, with wax figures of freaky things you can hardly believe existed (a guy with four irises but only two eyes, a man with a hole in his head that he used as a candle-holder, etc.). Walt and Rolly very explicitly explain that the MoW was going to be a collection of the "weirdest things they could find," "collected from all over the world." No suggestion there that they came from a fantasy world. It was also going to be a museum of the "supernatural" (so Walt). What would that be? Representations of supernatural phenomena collected from all over the world, or actual supernatural phenomena? How would that work in a museum display? Hard to tell. Regardless, what we were going to see, apparently, was stuff that pushed the limits of weirdness that could actually be found in the real world (like Ripley's). That's what a museum is, a display of interesting artifacts, not a fantasyland.

    Anyway, Walt knew that this stuff could not simply be placed inside the HM as it was developing; it had to be segregated and presented separately, making a distinct but separate point about the strangeness of reality.

    Carsillo seems to think Walt was mistaken, that the silly man needn't have stayed awake all night, because there was no problem to solve. Why, they could have simply put Rolly's MoW-type stuff here and there inside the HM, right alongside the other stuff. No problem. So go home and go to bed, Walt, you're fretting about nothing. Carsillo has blithely put MoW-type stuff on the side of crypts in the family plot. A resident has a sea serpent as a pet? Another nod to the MoW. No clash in his book, because the HM is a fantastical world.

    So with all due respect for your opinions (as always, well-thought out), I still submit that ghosts and only ghosts are the one deviation from reality in the HM.
    Last edited by HBG2; 05-02-2011 at 12:48 AM.
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  14. #3074

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    Does this mean that the new physical (animatronic) appearance of the HHGs cannot be used in an argument since they are "Distinctively new"
    I wouldn't call that "distinctively new." Other AA's have been spruced up in the past, clothes adjusted, etc. I do feel free to ignore Ezra's suitcase, Gus's bindle, and the pile of junk next to Phineas (not just the content of the portrait). Any argument dependent on those props would be invalid, according to the HBG2 Doctrine, since there was never any WDI intention that they harmonize with the rest of the HM (even if by chance they happen to do so).
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  15. #3075

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    It's true that the audio-animatronics have been updated all over the years. The old ones were never replaced. Instead they get new parts, cleaned up, new hats, new faces, and clothes as HBG2 has put. I have seen old videos of HM when it first came out. The lightning and ghosts looked different. Now, if you compare to today's. Things look updated and the ghosts themselves look much more ghastly and unearthly. The ballroom, the graveyard, the attic, and Leota's Seance have been updated throughout the years. Also, some props are replaced with newer ones and I heard that Disney brought in 'haunted' items to the place. Like the trunk for example and they put it in the attic.

    Perhaps, the Graveyard is the most adjusted finale. Disney has make the ghosts look hazy, blurry, and unearthly. They are blue color with a slight green hue. Also, the scrims provide the Graveyard scene with fog-like atmosphere. The sounds, the GGG song, singing, and the theme are well put together. The Graveyard has lots of energy filled with friendly ghosts and some playful spooks. It is why that the scene is my most favorite in the Haunted Mansion. I always love to hear the Grim Grinning Ghosts in unison once you leave the attic and look at the starry night sky with the Graveyard ghosts come out to socialize. The view of the Graveyard from the attic is fantastic. But you can't see much. It's not over till the Fat Lady sings!

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