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  1. #3076

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    This is bound to become an issue, so it's good to deal with it now rather than later.

    The HBG2 Doctrine.

    1. WHEREAS Pepe Le Queue (hereafter "PLQ") is "canon," like it or not, because it has the authority of WDI behind it,

    2. AND WHEREAS PLQ is the product of Imagineers who do NOT expect you to incorporate anything into anything, logically,

    3. AND WHEREAS the contents of PLQ are evidently intended as stand-alone gags, only loosely connected with existing Mansionalia,

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that we, the undercybersigned, understand "taking PLQ seriously as canon" to mean, "Don't bother trying to tie its contents into the larger whole via rational analysis. Nothing is PLQ can be used to prove or disprove anything anywhere beyond the borders of PLQ." Furthermore, such extensions of PLQ into the interior of the HM as may be found (for example, Maude's portrait) should also be ignored in any such discussions, being manifestly the product of the same WDI mindset, which considers such analysis invalid.

    It may be noted and acknowledged that it is an awkward fact that the old tombstones are swallowed up in PLQ, and it may be questioned whether they can still be referenced in the old way, making surgical excisions from PLQ as it were, based strictly on the knowledge of their prior existence.

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the old tombstones may still be referenced in the old way, despite the fact that they are now in the belly of the beast.

    It may be further noted and acknowledged that there are attractive elements in PLQ, like new tribute tombs. However, they too are the product of the current WDI mentality.

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that any temptation to enlist new tombstones in the service of argument outside the PLQ must be resisted. Enjoy 'em. Just don't use 'em in connection with anything else at the Mansion, as this is in violation of the Imagineers' intent.

    It may further be noted and acknowledged that the new Hitchhiking Ghost mirror gag is also official WDI canon, and at present it does not seem to present any logical difficulties. However, that must be taken as purely coincidental, since this too is the product of a mindset that considers rational HM analysis invalid.

    BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that nothing distinctively new in the current HHG gag can be used to support or refute any argument that extends beyond their appearance in the mirrors. The bats in Ezra's hat, for example, mean nothing in any discussion of the character of Ezra. This too is in full accordance with the philosophy of the WDI Imagineers who created and installed the new effect, which philosophy deems such extrapolations invalid.

    Witness my hand (quavering on top of the cane),
    HBQ2
    In summation, and even in legalese, it SUCKS! If it sucked any harder, it would be a BLACK HOLE.

    I don't care what TDO's foolosophy is or isn't. When something's bad, it's bad, period. You DON'T put the finale before the prelude and act I. (That's called a SPOILER.) And if it doesn't add to the story, move it along or provide exposition, you LEAVE IT OUT. And what about a little thing called "continuity"?

    That HIDEOUS McMansionland Playground DESTROYS the ambiance and mystique of a CLASSIC ATTRACTION's exterior. And the new Hitchhiking Ghost effect, while promising, looks like it was installed while still under development.

    In 1969, yours ghoully was exorcised for far less. Yet, this schlock at the beginning and end of the ride is now being passed off as "enhancements"? Pfffffffffft!

    Whatever funding was budgeted for this Chuck E. Cheesiness could've been spent far more wisely elsewhere.

    Last edited by TheHatboxGhost; 05-02-2011 at 04:59 AM.

  2. #3077

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    P.S. If Carsillo likes the Museum of the Weird concepts so much, he should have opened a Museum of the Weird -- SOMEWHERE ELSE in Liberty Square, NOT in the entrance line to The Haunted Mansion. Or, open a combination Haunted Mansion-themed restaurant, museum, arcade and gift shop on Florida swampland. Then, TDO could throw together all the Walt-rejected (After all, what did he know?), senseless, noise-making, mismatched stand-alones they want, sell them with a side of equally tasteless fries, and herd baffled, hypnotized, freaked-out and sensory-overloaded visitors past rack, bin, shelf and counter of "enhanced" souvenirs on the way out.
    Last edited by TheHatboxGhost; 05-02-2011 at 04:27 AM.

  3. #3078

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Speaking for myself, the HBG2 Doctrine is for purposes of discussing Anaheim and Tokyo. In any discussions of the identity of the Ghost Host or Constance's last husband or anything else like that, data drawn from Orlando must deliberately ignore PLQ and any other new thing there that's from the hands of the WDI team responsible for this clump of changes. Without something like this, the Orlando Mansion will be left out of such discussions in the same way Phantom Manor is.

    I want to be clear that I'm not ramming something down peoples' throats. Folks can agree with the HBG2 Doctrine or not, as they see fit. You can make a decent case that the intentions of the Imagineers are not conclusive, that artists can be wrong about their own work, and that PLQ is now a fact on the ground and must be absorbed into the whole, however tortured the logic must be in order to do so. "Phineas Pock now has a female relative, deal with it." I just think we need clarity. You can say things like, "Well, that theory doesn't work under the HBG2 Doctrine," and the other can say, "I don't accept the HD," and everyone understands each other, and an awful lot of tedious argument is hopefully avoided. It's a shorthand device, or call it a platform plank.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  4. #3079

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    I'm to say that they weren't, being that Gus is from England in, what I assume was, the middle ages.
    Quote Originally Posted by SmellyOrangutan View Post
    Candy Candido's voice of Gus definitely has an American accent.
    Sadly, at WDW the voice is no longer that of Candy Candido. Another of the senseless changes made there. I can hardly hear the new voice they use for him, but I don't recall that one sounding British either.

    The poor Headless Knight - who originally had a German accent - no longer even has a voice at the Florida Mansion! Totally ruins the gag, which was that he was still able to vocalize with a severed head.

  5. #3080

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Artwork can depict anything the artist and his client might like to see. I see paintings of Dracula in the real world: does that mean vampires must exist? The supernatural changing of the portraits means little since that's the ghosts trying to freak you out; it's not necessarily a validation of the contents of the paintings as actually existing somewhere.
    True. Though at Disneyland, the "several prominent ghosts who have retired here" line comes while you're walking past the changing portraits. I assume that the pictures (including the "after" stages) are representations of some of those ghosts. But you're right, the "after" stages could just be them trying to freak you out, and doesn't prove that they were actually supernatural monsters.

    For the Sinister 11, the pictures aren't seen changing from a previous image. We know definitely that the Hatchet Man is a real character in the mansion. So I assume that the vampire and Medusa would be as well. But again, it could just be the ghosts trying to unsettle you by changing the artwork - and not accurate representations of ghosts in the mansion.

    But then, you have that concept art Marc Davis did for Tokyo's mansion. Burial crypts of famous villains, including Dracula and Medusa. Also in there was Bluebeard, whose tomb has always been at WDW. He probably drew this years after the Disneyland and Magic Kingdom attractions had been open. To me, that means that Marc considered these legendary characters as existing within the world of the mansion. The concept didn't make it into the final attraction, but like I said - he came up with it after the US mansions had already been open for quite a while.

    We never actually see any of these kinds of things in the HM, though. Only ghosts.
    Well first of all, there's the raven. It could be simply a normal bird possessed by a ghost, like in the Story and Song album. But in the final attraction it could be something else entirely, like some demonic bird of death.

    Then you have the huge glowing spiders on giant webs. What are they? They're not ghosts, and I don't think they're regular spiders. They were able to ensnare and kill an adult man.
    (Of course, non-glowing versions of these spiders have appeared on the Jungle Cruise.)

    Also there's the skeletal dog in the graveyard. That one could just be a regular ghost though, inhabiting the skeleton.
    Last edited by SmellyOrangutan; 05-02-2011 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #3081

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Sadly, at WDW the voice is no longer that of Candy Candido. Another of the senseless changes made there. I can hardly hear the new voice they use for him, but I don't recall that one sounding British either.
    The current voice sounds kinda like Br'er Frog from Splash Mountain.

    The poor Headless Knight - who originally had a German accent - no longer even has a voice at the Florida Mansion! Totally ruins the gag, which was that he was still able to vocalize with a severed head.
    Does his mouth still move?
    Last edited by SmellyOrangutan; 05-02-2011 at 10:36 AM.

  7. #3082

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Looks like like the current WDW's Haunted Mansion won't suppress Disneyland's and Tokyo Disneyland's version. The projection seems like it was thought up very quickly to make little kids excited about the projection effects in the mirror rather than the Hitchhiking ghosts following you home. WDW HM's doesn't have much a creepy and dark atmosphere once you passed Constance and the 'new' Graveyard.

    TDL HM has more special effects and newer effects in the Corridor of Doors than WDW's amd DL's The doors can go crazy, as if the doors are breaking. There more sounds of ghosts. Leota's Seance, since her crystal bowl won't float around like WDW and DL. At least it feels and look the same. For the Ballroom, it is pretty much identical to all of the Ballrooms. The Attic has the Frozen Bride and the screams of the Pop-up ghosts which makes it creepy. The Graveyard ghosts have more movement and fluid animations than the counterparts at both DL and WDW. The singing voices still retain, the original audio track.

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  8. #3083

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by SmellyOrangutan View Post
    Then you have the huge glowing spiders on giant webs. What are they? They're not ghosts, and they can't be regular spiders. They were able to ensnare and kill an adult man.
    Not anymore you don't - unless you're referring to Tokyo.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmellyOrangutan View Post
    Also there's the skeletal dog in the graveyard. That one could just be a regular ghost though, inhabiting the skeleton.
    Nope. That's a wolf.

  9. #3084

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Nope. That's a wolf.
    Do you know of something that definitively labels it as a wolf?

    On the Liberty Belle riverboat, a sign for "Howling Dog Bend" can be seen:
    Howling Dog Bend Obsessed with WDW

    I believe the famous HM howling sound is also called "Howling Dog."

    But yes, it might be specifically a skeletal wolf using the same sound effect.

  10. #3085

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by SmellyOrangutan View Post
    Do you know of something that definitively labels it as a wolf?

    On the Liberty Belle riverboat, a sign for "Howling Dog Bend" can be seen:
    Howling Dog Bend Obsessed with WDW

    I believe the famous HM howling sound is also called "Howling Dog."

    But yes, it might be specifically a skeletal wolf using the same sound effect.
    Not sure where they get that it's a dog. That's a wolf's howl. Same sound effect that was used outside, in the Load area, and in the Graveyard (just a slightly different edit, but the exact same sound effect).



    Sure doesn't look like just a dog to me.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Also there's the skeletal dog in the graveyard. That one could just be a regular ghost though, inhabiting the skeleton.
    Nope. That's a wolf.
    Actually, now I think it's a "hellhound" rather than a re-animated dog/wolf skeleton.

    From wikipedia:

    A hellhound is a supernatural dog, found in mythology, folklore and fiction. A wide variety of ominous or hellish supernatural dogs occur in mythologies around the world, similar to the ubiquitous dragon. Features that have been attributed to hellhounds include black fur, glowing red or sometimes glowing yellow eyes, super strength or speed, ghostly or phantom characteristics, foul odor, and sometimes even the ability to talk.

    Legend says that if someone is to stare into its eyes three times or more, the person will definitely die. In cultures that associate the afterlife with fire, hellhounds may have fire-based abilities and appearance. They are often assigned to guard the entrances to the world of the dead, such as graveyards and burial grounds, or undertake other duties related to the afterlife or the supernatural, such as hunting lost souls or guarding a supernatural treasure. In European legends, seeing a hellhound or hearing it howl may be either an omen of death or even a cause of death.
    I still say the portrait characters, raven, spiders, and the aforementioned "hellhound" found in the original Haunted Mansions indicate that supernatural creatures other than plain old ghosts exist in the attraction's "reality."

  12. #3087

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    According to the "DACS" it is a Howling Dig.

  13. #3088

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    So, does that make this the reanimated skeleton of a hellhound? It has no black fur (or any fur) as the description says. I don't think this one has the glowing eyes, but I believe the Phantom Manor version does have glowing eyes. However, that one only snarls - no howl.

  14. #3089

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    So, does that make this the reanimated skeleton of a hellhound? It has no black fur (or any fur) as the description says.
    That just describes features often associated with one version of the creature.
    I'm sure there are many different visual depictions of hellhounds.

    The skulls coming out of the organ are called banshees, but they don't match the typical description of a banshee.

  15. #3090

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    According to the "DACS" it is a Howling Dig.
    Perhaps whoever labeled it was confused. There are two other dogs in the scene, one with sound (albeit both of those are the same dog - the Caretaker's dog). Maybe they just assumed all three were dogs. The sound effect itself is that of a wolf.

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