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  1. #3226

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    By our own MrHatboxGhost: "Anyways, my father and I were literally one of the only people on the Haunted Mansion that night, it was seriously dead for a Saturday night..no pun intended. I don't think we realized we were the last people in line until we heard, and felt, someone jogging behind us. You could feel the footsteps behind us; the CM loading whoever into a Doombuggy turned around and so did we, it was almost unnerving.
    When I was a kid, in the loading area at WDW HM, I always thought there was knocking coming from the floor. I remember thinking how cool that was.

  2. #3227

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    My guess would be that there's something mechanical just under the flooring associated with the Doombuggies making that 'running' sound, as if someone were running along side the buggies.

  3. #3228

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    My guess would be that there's something mechanical just under the flooring associated with the Doombuggies making that 'running' sound, as if someone were running along side the buggies.
    Could be, but this is described (if I am understanding it) as being in the hallway by the staring busts, heard coming from 'behind'. Not yet on the Doombuggies, where something mechanical would likely be the culprit indeed.
    when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

  4. #3229

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    It's hard for me to tell which of these items are seriously being put forward as evidence and which are merely oddities and curios.

    Oy vey, where to begin?

    First off, nothing Walt said about the interior of the HM counts. It may sound like blasphemy, but the fact is that the HM went through fundamental conceptual changes between 1965 and 1969. Walt's comments are terribly interesting for historical reasons, but they have extremely limited value in interpreting the HM interior we eventually got.

    Nothing printed inside any book in the HM counts, any more than the lights and speakers hidden behind tombstones and furniture. That would of course include the dates found on title pages. The books are props in a staged presentation. In a staged presentation, anything that the viewer cannot possibly see is "offstage" and doesn't exist.

    Does anyone know whether any of the attic glassware is in an exclusively 20th c. design?

    If it isn't possible to tell for sure from the rider's POV whether that attic lamp is electric or kerosene without a flash photo, then it doesn't count either. It's a stage prop. It's in the "old-fashioned" style of earlier, kerosene lamps, like many table lamps are. That goes for any other piece of incidental junk in the attic. If you can't see it without a flash, it doesn't count.

    All of the hanging lights in the portrait hall, the loading area, and the CoD are very authentic-looking gas lamps. They've even got their gas mantles in plain view. Whoever said gas lamp globes can't point down is mistaken. It's called "inverted" style.

    Madame Leota's old swag lamp flickers because it appears to be a perfectly normal kerosene lamp, like the antique below. Tiffany has been around since 1837.





    As for the doombuggies, Clockwork is right. They would have done SOMETHING to them, but they did zero. Nada. Flat-black painted, utterly featureless, inside and out.

    And then there's this:



    It's definitely a Victorian-era desk lamp, and yeah, it had me all furrow-browed for a bit. It was lots of fun boning up on Victorian lamps, actually. It's an antique, gas desk lamp, is what it is.

    I know, I was surprised too. Here are some gas (not electric) Victorian-era table and desk lamps:











    How can you tell an antique gas desk lamp (very rare) from an electric one? The electric ones seem to all use this style of on/off switch, a key mounted on the socket:







    The gas ones don't need anything there, of course. The HM specimen looks gas to me:



    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  5. #3230

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    All of the hanging lights in the portrait hall, the loading area, and the CoD are very authentic-looking gas lamps. They've even got their gas mantles in plain view. Whoever said gas lamp globes can't point down is mistaken. It's called "inverted" style.

    Madame Leota's old swag lamp flickers because it appears to be a perfectly normal kerosene lamp, like the antique below. Tiffany has been around since 1837.



    Tiffany lead glass shades were only on electric lamps, starting in about 1895 with the Art Nouveau style, not 1837. The Leota shade is clearly a later 20th century shade. Also, they could not have a kerosene burner completely enclosed within a white glass globe up inside the leaded glass shade as this and the others do. The second photo is the type of kerosene lamp I had already mentioned in my post, and also noted that they would not have Tiffany-style shades. Just the standard glass shade for a kerosene lamp as shown in your reference photo. WED clearly made a historical boo-boo on that one.

    The interior globe can be seen in this version from HMH:

    [IMG] 11-Seance tarot by gerryu21220, on Flickr[/IMG]

    As far as flickering goes, I had always thought Leota's conjuring powers were interfering with the electricity. (And that the flickering was by design to help mask any flickering of the movie film projection on the bust inside the crystal ball.)

    There is no way that lamp could ever have been kerosene. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    And then there's this:



    It's definitely a Victorian-era desk lamp, and yeah, it had me all furrow-browed for a bit. It was lots of fun boning up on Victorian lamps, actually. It's an antique, gas desk lamp, is what it is.

    I know, I was surprised too. Here are some gas (not electric) Victorian-era table and desk lamps:











    How can you tell an antique gas desk lamp (very rare) from an electric one? The electric ones seem to all use this style of on/off switch, a key mounted on the socket:







    The gas ones don't need anything there, of course. The HM specimen looks gas to me:



    I was told gas lamps couldn't be inverted by a man that owned a specialty lighting shop. They sold both the electric reproductions of gas fixtures and contemporary lighting. I had purchased some electric reproduction gas sconces and asked how it would look mounted with the shades pointing down instead. (The very same globe as the desk lamp on the COD table, as a matter of fact.) His reply was an emphatic "NO! If it were really gas, it would break the glass globe from the heat! The wide end should go up, to let the heat out." He never mentioned anything about there being a special "inverted" version for the original gas lamps. I guess he was only referring to my fixtures in particular, saying it wouldn't be right - historically - to mount them upside down. So, that was the extent of my knowledge on the subject of gas lighting.

    You gotta admit, this has certainly has been enlightening...
    Last edited by Grinning Ghost; 05-05-2011 at 04:39 PM.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Antique inverted gas chandelier



    Gas mantles plainly visible in HM examples



    Yeah, given a choice between "Madame Leota's got the only definitely electric light in the HM" and "WED made a historical boo-boo," I'd go with option B.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  7. #3232

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Here's a thought: Could it be that Madame Leota came at a much later period to "call out the spirits"? It sure would explain a lot, like the electric light and much later style tombstone.

  8. #3233

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    Here's a thought: Could it be that Madame Leota came at a much later period to "call out the spirits"? It sure would explain a lot, like the electric light and much later style tombstone.
    Yeah that's what I'm saying. That's not impossible.

    First off, nothing Walt said about the interior of the HM counts. It may sound like blasphemy, but the fact is that the HM went through fundamental conceptual changes between 1965 and 1969. Walt's comments are terribly interesting for historical reasons, but they have extremely limited value in interpreting the HM interior we eventually got.
    I just posted that interview tidbit because it's something HM-related that I don't think we've seen before. I wasn't trying to use it to make a point or anything.

    Nothing printed inside any book in the HM counts, any more than the lights and speakers hidden behind tombstones and furniture. That would of course include the dates found on title pages. The books are props in a staged presentation. In a staged presentation, anything that the viewer cannot possibly see is "offstage" and doesn't exist.
    You could say the same about things like Constance's wedding certificates and the details of the clothes on the hanging corpse.
    Last edited by SmellyOrangutan; 05-05-2011 at 05:33 PM.

  9. #3234

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I have a question that is off the current topic. I thought I would ask the experts here. I was at the Mansion yesteday and as I boarded the doombuggy, I noticed a bat was stuck to it with velcro (i think). I didn't see it on any other doombuggies. It looked rather cheap - homemade even. Has anyone seen this before ? What is the significance of it?

  10. #3235

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I was at the Mansion yesteday and as I boarded the doombuggy, I noticed a bat was stuck to it with velcro (i think). I didn't see it on any other doombuggies. It looked rather cheap - homemade even. Has anyone seen this before ? What is the significance of it?
    I think those are to notify maintenence which Doom Buggies need to be looked at.

    NEW GHOST HOST THEORY:

    In both editions of Jason Surrell's book, for the WDW Music Room he writes:

    "Bright moonlight streams through the Music Room window, casting a shadow of the pianist--actually the Ghost Host--onto the floor as he pounds away on the piano."

    So the Ghost Host is the invisible pianist, according to Surrell.
    His voice remains with you in your buggy as you ascend the staircase.
    The Ghost Host separated from his shadow is seen elsewhere:


    So we know that the Ghost Host is a musician. He can play a keyboard.

    Once you reach the balcony overlooking the ballroom, the Ghost Host leaves you for awhile. "They'll be expecting me," he says.
    Why are they expecting him? Do they need his... musical talents?

    Ghost Host = Organist?

  11. #3236

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    Could be, but this is described (if I am understanding it) as being in the hallway by the staring busts, heard coming from 'behind'. Not yet on the Doombuggies, where something mechanical would likely be the culprit indeed.
    When you get to the staring busts and take a turn right, you go straight until you have to turn to the left, two walls meet into a corner, it was in that corner that I heard the footsteps.

  12. #3237

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHatboxGhost View Post
    When you get to the staring busts and take a turn right, you go straight until you have to turn to the left, two walls meet into a corner, it was in that corner that I heard the footsteps.
    Oh ok, so right before the carpet runs out/turn to get on the moving platform? By the large lamp/urn on the corner as you describe.
    when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

  13. #3238

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    Oh ok, so right before the carpet runs out/turn to get on the moving platform? By the large lamp/urn on the corner as you describe.
    Yes, where the urn is, but on the opposite side further from the running carpet.
    I honestly don't think it was anything mechanical though, you could feel the distinct footsteps.
    If you really want to replicate my experience, get on at the 10:30 showing of Fantasmic! and right before the park closes.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    There is a hallway on the other side of those walls. It can be seen if you look down through gaps in the paneling that surrounds the doombuggy track if you were to continue riding to the load area instead of disembarking at the escalator. Last time I saw it someone was pushing a handtruck down the hallway. that's probably where the footsteps came from.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I'm not following the logic of this Leota theory. She's 20th century, and therefore she insists on using a 20th c. light, except that she makes it flicker? I don't get it. Also, I've never seen the white globe before. Was it always there, or is it a HMH thing? Also also, I don't know enough about Tiffany-style lamp shades to pinpoint dates.

    Of course, the vulnerable point in using electricity as evidence that the place must have been occupied during the 20th c. (and I don't think anyone here has pushed precisely that argument) is that rich people were electrifying their houses already in the latter 19th c. Conceivably, George or Constance had at least the sťance room wired with that new-fangled electricity thing, perhaps an indicator of the importance they assigned to that room and its activities.

    No matter how you slice it, I think you have to conclude that the Tiffany lamp is an error by WED. You just have to decide what the error is. Either (1) they assumed Tiffany lamps like that could be kerosene, or (2) they made what was always intended to be an electric lamp flicker like a flame. It's a judgment call, and obviously we're disagreeing as to which of the two is more likely, but right now I favor the first as a more plausible error.

    I don't understand why some are saying the Leota stone looks more modern than the others. I never picked up that notion. It's certainly in a different style than the others, and it's much more formal and expensive, but what is there in its style that dates it later than the others?

    The point about the GH corpse's clothes and Connie's wedding certificates is an interesting one. Both are offstage and therefore not part of the show (although someone could argue that theoretically, someone could notice the pinstriped pants and pair that bit of data with the noose thing for a fairly positive identification, but we'll let them one go). The difference between those and things like an electric lamp on the junk in the back of the attic is that they are specifically informational and undeniably intentional. They incontrovertibly betray WDI's mind in those areas, but they are backstage, inside info. To use the stage analogy once again, it would be like sitting next to the author of the play as you watch it, and having him give you a few inside comments on what he intended in his own mind with this or that detail. The point is, there is no possible misunderstanding of what the GH clothes mean (= Hatch) or what is explicitly written on the certificates, whereas the attic lamp could be shrugged off as a random piece of junk that they didn't think you would be able to see very well, and this is almost certainly the case with the books they used as props. You've got a pretty steep, uphill battle arguing that those things represent meaningful content for the Imagineers.

    Having said that, I still hold Connie's certificates in a sort of "Widow Patecleaver" category. If a headstone appeared with "Constance Hightower, neť Williamson" on it, they couldn't be accused of changing her name since the content of the certificates is offstage and has not been openly confirmed. I consider it extremely likely that Hatchaway is her maiden name at WDI if those certificates were indeed authorized additions to the attic, but if they wanted to change her name, they still could.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

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