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  1. #4441

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    It's a matter of personal taste, I daresay
    Do not disagree at all. However the stretching to quantify those dislikes needs to 'die off'.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    I preferred the visual look of the ghosts that were clearly solid figures vs. the redesign to look like typical "Loony Tunes" characters
    I don't follow that logic at all. 'Clearly Solid figures'?? They were transparent images people saw alongside themselves in a mirror. How they were done is lost on the average guest.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    No one denies the tech is ambitious and fancy...but people do debate whether or not the applied use in the Mansion, combined with the specific appearance....not the actions...of the figures is the best use or fits stylistically with the rest.
    I disagree. The very post quoted you replied to calls out their ACTIONS as unfit. People don't like what the ghosts are doing for some reason.. as if the entire place is ment to be somber and dark?? The scene was never a scary or gloomy one.. and even the graveyard transitions you to the humor as the ride enters the epilogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    The hitchhiking ghosts appear in very nice, newly revamped AA form seconds before the mirror scene...where they look vastly different in basic design and far more cartoonish. That is my issue.
    Honestly - actually riding the attraction.. I didn't notice such a huge variation.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    There is also the factor of over the years, hearing "how did they do that" in amongst people joking around with the figures when they were physical props. It did retain an aura of mystery for average guests. Now, it's clear...it's just a video screen projection. [...]All ambiguity or mystery of how it is achieved gone...
    The scene doesn't look any less like the mirrors of the past.. it still looks like a mirror. And this assumption of knowing they were physical objects, but not knowing how the effect worked.. is contradictory in itself.

    This sounds like a bunch of presumptions that I highly doubt resonate with the average guest.. which even you cite as the ones impacted. The average guest would have been stumped by the old effect, and not the new one? The difference is now people know it's possible to do such things with CGI.. whether they realize the real-time abilities or not is questionable.. but such an argument would be that CGI has ruined all special effects everywhere where the guest can't move around the effect.

    There is no glaring obvious 'hey it's a movie screen' moment in the ride. Have you ridden it yourself yet?
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  2. #4442

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    My opinion is simple...I think the new look of the end projection characters is off, and I like the old physical AA's and new preceding 'non-screen' ones better, as far as appearance goes. I do not have some big agenda or trying to defend what others think...I liked the stage magic aspect of it and fact that you could see it was likely a physical robot (like the rest throughout the ride) somehow made to appear with you which was clearly not there in your vehicle. That is not justifying anything.

    Other people will have issues with the actions, and do...I don't care about that aspect myself, so much: no problem to me or great dislike. You are perfectly free to disagree with my feelings about the appearance of the characters naturally Merely you misrepresent my statements as being applied on my part to every single guest or Disney fan. I still do hear statements of people who could not figure how precisely the old effect worked, that's a simple fact. I admire that, but draw no conclusions of...the public liked the old effect better, or the new one.

    And yes, I have ridden it in person. People goofed around with the ghosts like they did with the old versions, and some exclamations of surprise: the technology itself is impressive, as I previously acknowledged. I take issue with stylistic design of the new rendered characters, myself, is the bottom line.

    Saying I am presuming to know what everyone else thinks is not accurate, to me: the average guest will enjoy the ride like always, or notice something is different and they like it, or don't. I make no claim to know the mind of these guests or say my opinion stands for all.
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  3. #4443

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    I just hope that they don't wake up one day and suddenly realize that they've bled away the old feel of the place by replacing the Gracey tricks one by one.
    I seriously doubt that would ever happen.

  4. #4444

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    I don't follow that logic at all. 'Clearly Solid figures'?? They were transparent images people saw alongside themselves in a mirror. How they were done is lost on the average guest.

    The scene doesn't look any less like the mirrors of the past.. it still looks like a mirror. And this assumption of knowing they were physical objects, but not knowing how the effect worked.. is contradictory in itself.

    There is no glaring obvious 'hey it's a movie screen' moment in the ride. Have you ridden it yourself yet?
    "Clearly solid figures" is not the best way to put it, more like "clearly three dimensional figures". Take a look:

    Old:



    New:



    They are still using mirrors, and a mild version of the pepper's ghost effect. The guest's appearance is reflected in the two way mirror while the projection/TV screen is preforming the actions on the opposite side.

    There is a clear "hey it's a TV screen" moment. Take a look at one of the videos and you'll see it. (I have ridden it with the new effects).


    If this effect was plussed (the actions and appearance being changed) I wouldn't mind the new effect, actually I might be quite fond of it.

  5. #4445

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    My opinion is simple...I think the new look of the end projection characters is off, and I like the old physical AA's and new preceding 'non-screen' ones better, as far as appearance goes
    that's fine and no issue with that. But the reasoning to quantify that taste offered don't hold up to scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    Other people will have issues with the actions, and do...I don't care about that aspect myself, so much: no problem to me or great dislike. You are perfectly free to disagree with my feelings about the appearance of the characters naturally Merely you misrepresent my statements as being applied on my part to every single guest or Disney fan
    no - simply responding to the comment that 'people do debate whether or not the applied use in the Mansion, combined with the specific appearance....not the actions...of the figures' when in fact the very post being replied to does specifically call out the actions (and does again in the later post).

    And I'd love to hear your comparison to how these are somehow 'loony tunes' characters if not because of their actions.

    You may be about the appearance - but is not that what the 'complaints' are limited to.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    I still do hear statements of people who could not figure how precisely the old effect worked, that's a simple fact. I admire that, but draw no conclusions of...the public liked the old effect better, or the new one.
    ... yet you draw the conclusion that the new is so obvious and somehow lesser effect because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    I take issue with stylistic design of the new rendered characters, myself, is the bottom line.
    sure, no problems there.. that is opinion alone. But no need to call out the old effect as a 'mystery' while the new one is 'obvious'.. or that somehow the animations are 'looney tunes' characters. I'd still love to hear that analogy worked out if it's not related to their actions or reliance on physical gags.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
    Saying I am presuming to know what everyone else thinks is not accurate, to me: the average guest will enjoy the ride like always, or notice something is different and they like it, or don't
    So kind of like before.. I guess it's not the end of the world after all...

    ---------- Post added 08-07-2011 at 05:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    "Clearly solid figures" is not the best way to put it, more like "clearly three dimensional figures". Take a look:
    You're comparing a good photo vs a miserable one. Kind of stacking the deck aren't you?

    Besides.. it's a mirror image. It's the light and shadow that gives the impression of dimension - not the source of the reflection itself. Which is why the rendered images still have depth.
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    There is a clear "hey it's a TV screen" moment. Take a look at one of the videos and you'll see it. (I have ridden it with the new effects).
    I too have ridden it (several times) and don't follow that leap with you that all of a sudden someone feels like they are watching a video image of themselves.

    As you all keep rolling back to when your 'reasons' are debunked is.. you simply don't like the style and attitude they took. Just leave it at that - no need to construct justifications on why no should like it for X reasons that really don't hold up.
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  6. #4446

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I can honor the fact that their actions are debatable, but none of us are blind to the facts that the animations do not resemble their figures and that they are FLAT. You cannot debate those two points, plain and simple.

    I did not say that there is a feeling of watching a TV screen, but there is a break in between the mirrors that can bring someone to that conclusion.


    Also, there are no good screenshots of the new HHGs that I know of, sorry for "Stacking".

    I find it frivolous to keep arguing the facts, so I am going to politely withdrawal myself from the subject. Be back when it's over.
    Last edited by MasterGracey13; 08-07-2011 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #4447

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    There is also the matter that when my head gets pulled off, it actually is still on my body....

  8. #4448

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    This point has been debated to death, Why don't we focus on things that don't divide us. After all, we are just days away from the 42nd Anniversary of the Manson I mean Mansion.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    I can honor the fact that their actions are debatable, but none of us are blind to the facts that the animations do not resemble their figures and that they are FLAT. You cannot debate those two points, plain and simple.
    A mirror is FLAT too.. so somehow one is flat and the other three dimensional when you see them both the exact same way in your world. The depth in a mirror is perceived due to light and shadow and what your brain thinks it's seeing. The image is no different then what you see on a TV, projection, etc. That's the fact.

    As for them not looking like their figures.. I don't know what you are talking about. The animated figures look just like the ghosts in the scene before except in physical size.

    As for pictures of the ghosts.. simply go back to the first quality video of them posted by orlando attractions when they first debuted. Look pretty darn similar to me! The only difference being Erza wearing his hat instead of in his hand and how much detail one can see in his face because of his size

    Here you go, some simple screen grabs. Honestly I don't know where one would be upset to claim they don't look anything alike.



    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    I did not say that there is a feeling of watching a TV screen, but there is a break in between the mirrors that can bring someone to that conclusion.
    So wait.. the portrait hallway people think they are watching a TV too because the effect is within a fixed shape on the wall? Is your TV a big 4' circle on your wall at home? You guys are taking the conclusions you want, and then trying to spin stories to make it happen. Working backwards to justify a conclusion.

    The hallway is dark, and the people see themselves move in and out of the mirrors seamlessly. A group of circular mirrors is a lot more realistic then a long mirror anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    I find it frivolous to keep arguing the facts, so I am going to politely withdrawal myself from the subject. Be back when it's over.
    You're arguing the facts??
    the 'facts' they look like loony tunes..
    the 'facts' they are 'clearly three dimensional figures' in a flat mirror? (lest we forget every other mirror surface trick)
    the 'facts' that they 'look like ghosts rather than something Chuck Jones created'

    Quite an impressive list of hard core facts there!

    We're all entitled to our own opinion.. but not our own facts.
    Last edited by flynnibus; 08-07-2011 at 03:29 PM.
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  10. #4450

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Man, I love debating some of the new effects, but the bottom line is, some people will enjoy them, others won't. Does it mean that my opinion is valued less necessarily because I may enjoy those effects or the new queue in Florida? Again, I've never actually seen in person but I feel sometimes that people lose sight of what Disneyland is all about, having fun and enjoying one's self there. Bringing back memories of when one is a kid and perhaps sharing those memories with others as well.

    Heck, I'd rather not dissect the effects themselves or know the ins and outs of the rides. Sure, some information is nice and what not. But at some point being critical becomes nonsensical and feels as if people are nitpicking at best. Some people enjoy it, others don't. It's a matter of opinion really.
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  11. #4451

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Bottom line: The new mirrors HHG's look flat and 2 dimensional...with an occasional seam here and there. The old ones were clearly 3 dimensional figures, more realistic. How is that so difficult to comprehend?

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HMF View Post
    This point has been debated to death, Why don't we focus on things that don't divide us. After all, we are just days away from the 42nd Anniversary of the Manson I mean Mansion.
    Will they be doing anything at DL, I'm going to be there that day?

    I'm sure someone else mentioned it, so let me apologize if they did. I was watching Hollywood Treasure the other day and the found the portrait of the lady with the alligator from the elevator(sorry I don't know her name). They auctioned it for around $40,000. I would think it would be worth way more, but I guess that's what people were willing to pay during that auction...
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  13. #4453

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Maybe you're just misunderstanding the facts (or you're just being ignorant), let me explain this in the most calm and collected way I can.

    Facts:

    1. The projections do not look anything like the figures (with the exception of Phineas)
    2. They are two dimensional rather than three dimensional.
    3. There is a visible seam between projected surfaces.

    Fact 1

    Here is a comparison of the Figure and it's projection counterpart:



    (photo via HBG2's blog)

    They are using the same model as they did for the temporary ghosts.

    Ezra's hands are large and have skin on them, while his counterpart have tiny skeletal hands, the figure's forehead is small while the projection's is large and skinny. Ezra's hair is abundant while the projection's is scarce. The Projection's chin is as big as Jay Leno's while the figure's is not. Shall I go on?



    Gus's hair is combed nicely and sports a shackle on his left leg. His counterpart has uncombed hair and has his shackle on his right leg. The figure is in short un-torn garb while The projection is in a long torn one. Their faces only have miniscule differences.

    Fact 2:

    The difference between 2 and three dimensional. A simple definition is that you can only see the length and with of a 2-D object while with a three dimensional one you can see length width and depth. A mirror, while being a flat surface, reflects a three dimensional object. that is why when you look at an adjacent buggy you see the side of it. This was the way that the old HHGs were:



    You are able to see the side of the buggy, therefore, in order to make a sense of realism, the HHG was a three dimensional figure.
    The new HHGs, however, do not have this quality. They are projected as two dimensional objects, therefore they only have a front, and no depth:



    Fact 3:

    This one is simple. There is a seam that is visible between projected surfaces/TV screens. It is easier to see in videos rather than a screen shot, but here is a rough example:





    Their antics are personal preference, that is all that I will give you.

    I feel that if they were to fix the appearances and toned down their antics (and sound effects), I would be happy, even if they never appear 3-D.

    I hope this is enough proof
    Last edited by MasterGracey13; 08-07-2011 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #4454

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    A mirror is FLAT too.. so somehow one is flat and the other three dimensional when you see them both the exact same way in your world. The depth in a mirror is perceived due to light and shadow and what your brain thinks it's seeing. The image is no different then what you see on a TV, projection, etc. That's the fact.

    As for them not looking like their figures.. I don't know what you are talking about. The animated figures look just like the ghosts in the scene before except in physical size.
    Well, I have to say something now. The first statement is factually wrong on a purely optical level. The reason anything looks 3D is that your two eyes are seeing two different things. Your right eye is seeing slightly around the right side of whatever it is you're seeing with your left eye. Or state it vice versa; it doesn't matter: Your left eye is seeing slightly around the left side of whatever you're seeing with your right eye. The degree of difference between the two is in fact how you gauge depth. That's why people with only one working eye have no true depth perception.

    Three dimensional objects seen in a mirror retain these features. You're seeing two different things reflected in the mirror: what your left eye sees, and what your right eye sees. But with TV screens, etc., only one thing is presented to both eyes, and there is no true depth perception possible. In other words, it looks flat by comparison. It's optics, pure and simple.

    As for the CG ghosts looking exactly like the AA ghosts, I'll let you decide whether we have good reason to think otherwise.

    Here's the temporary CG Ezra that covered the AA's while they were being installed, alongside the actual AA Ezra that was unveiled. Look "exactly the same" to you?



    And the CG Ezra in the new mirror effect is obviously taken straight from that temporary figure:



    The AA Ezra has large hands (suitable to his role as a hitchhiker), while the CG Ezra has delicate, small, skeletal hands. No animator would deny that hands are very important things in an animated character.





    This is something about which everyone should be in agreement, whether they love or hate the new effect: the renditions of the CG characters, especially Ezra, are inexcusably sloppy. Look at those pics. Amateur hour. An embarrassment to Disney.

    ---------- Post added 08-07-2011 at 05:28 PM ----------

    Egads, practically a double post. LOL, as the kids say.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  15. #4455

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    A mirror is FLAT too.. so somehow one is flat and the other three dimensional when you see them both the exact same way in your world. The depth in a mirror is perceived due to light and shadow and what your brain thinks it's seeing. The image is no different then what you see on a TV, projection, etc. That's the fact.
    Well, the original HHGs are actual 3D figures, as they exist in the real world, and that's where the depth comes from, its no illusion. The projections are renderings, mere graphics, and thats why they'll never capture the 3D depth or scope. Or at the very least they don't have it now.
    Last edited by mr. taag; 08-07-2011 at 06:13 PM.

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