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  1. #4471

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    And to think all these years... I never heard anyone go 'wow, that 3D was so impressive!' it was all about the image compositing and the concept... not so much about the idea being 3D or not. I think you all are really latching onto a byproduct, and acting like it was a fundamental requirement of the effect. This was simply the most reliable, best way to get the image of the ghost in the car with the guest back in the 60s.
    It was also the most realistic in appearance. All they really should have done was to update the stick puppets to give them more movement. The cartoony CGI just can't compete with having real figures behind the glass. Period. Back then, people would wonder "How'd they DO that?" Now it's blatantly obvious that they're just CGI.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    The reason that the fast motion in the projections is wrong is that they've spent the entire rest of the ride establishing that the ghosts in this house all move a certain way, and then, BAM! For the last few seconds of the ride, it's a completely different style of motion altogether. They even move in a completely different manner than the exact same characters did a few moments earlier.

  3. #4473

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    It was also the most realistic in appearance.
    The point being - you're taking a side-effect of the method chosen, and then making it to be one of the requirements to measure against, when it should be measured against the intended effect and purpose. Is it a loss to not see something as you move around it? certainly, but it's not needed in this effect and it's loss is far outweighed by other gains IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    Back then, people would wonder "How'd they DO that?" Now it's blatantly obvious that they're just CGI.
    Why would you think someone experiencing the attraction now for the first time wouldn't think the original effect was CGI too? The leap to assume CGI is in large part because people are used to it now. If you took a 12yr old today who is used to everything being CGI for special effects - he would probably assume the same thing. It's what he knows.

    People would assume CGI because it's something they know can't be done in reality... they also know a ghost can't possibly be sitting next to them so they might make a similar assumption of the effect that it's some rendering.

    CGI and projection in themselves are not bad - it's all about execution and the results. Most people don't seem to have a problem with the results here.
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  4. #4474

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    That video only shows the "ghosts" portion that gets superimposed onto the video of the Doombuggies. Unfortunately, the evac video seems to have disappeared from YouTube. (Why does that always seem to happen?) Anyway, as the people were walking through the Hall of Mirrors with the emergency lights on, they cast no reflections in the "mirrors". The emergency lights were also on behind the mirrors showing nothing but blank white screens, and the edges of the screens were visible. The glass was completely transparent. Vividly transparent, to the point where there appeared to be no glass whatsoever. If they were still mirrors, it would not be possible to make guests' heads "disappear". The three-dimensional aspect may be the Pepper's Ghost effect of the cars' natural reflection on the glass surface under normal ride conditions. If there is any silvering left on the glass, it can't be more than 10% - 15% opacity. If they were still the same as before, then it would not be possible to block out guests' heads.
    No, sorry. You just can't win this one. If it were a projection of the whole scene everything would be flat, and it is not. You do know how two way mirrors work, right?

  5. #4475

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    That video only shows the "ghosts" portion that gets superimposed onto the video of the Doombuggies. Unfortunately, the evac video seems to have disappeared from YouTube. (Why does that always seem to happen?) Anyway, as the people were walking through the Hall of Mirrors with the emergency lights on, they cast no reflections in the "mirrors".
    So I guess there ARE vampires in The Haunted Mansion!

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Originally Posted by flynnibus
    I didn't say they looked exactly the same.
    Originally Posted by HBG2
    That's true, you said: "The animated figures look just like the ghosts in the scene before except in physical size." If you can find a significant difference between "look just like" and "look exactly the same," then your grasp of the subtle nuances of the English tongue far exceeds my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    That is out of context - that text is in response to a claim that they don't look anything like the figures. I was responding to an assertion that said they were nothing like each other. When someone says they are worlds apart, my response is trying to bring them back at least the same 5,000ft level. I mean, people are continually saying they look NOTHING like the figures in the scene before... Just look at the post below yours
    I'm sorry, but this is another dodge. Your original response, brief as it was, was a full response to its context. You said in effect, "I agree with you that they're not absolutely identical. They are different in size. But other than that, they look the same." If you later come back and say, "I didn't say they looked exactly the same" (and without reference to the size, which was never a point of contention), then you have indeed contradicted yourself, even with the full context on the table.

    Look, it's a smallish point, but you spoke carelessly. Stonewalling it does nothing to enhance your credibility in the debate.

    I might conjecture that possibly you are preparing for a career in politics, and you understandably need venues for practicing, but that could be construed as a personal attack, and I want to keep things within the TOU!

    ---------- Post added 08-08-2011 at 08:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JCSkipr79 View Post
    Removed quote about banned member.

    Well, the thing morphed quickly into (another) discussion of the new effect per se. I agree that fretting specifically about installation at DL is taking an unsubstantiated rumor way too seriously. I didn't know that info about the source, so thanks for posting it.
    Last edited by RegionsBeyond; 08-08-2011 at 09:02 AM.
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  7. #4477

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The point being - you're taking a side-effect of the method chosen, and then making it to be one of the requirements to measure against, when it should be measured against the intended effect and purpose. Is it a loss to not see something as you move around it? certainly, but it's not needed in this effect and it's loss is far outweighed by other gains IMO.
    I don't see any gains in it's current state. The originals were more convincing in that they really seemed to be there with you in the car - at least it seemed like that for a split-second, anyway. Their style and the execution matched the trio seen in the previous vignette. Other than their lack of motion, everything else about them was right. The CGI ones are not convincing at all, and don't match their AA counterparts in appearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Why would you think someone experiencing the attraction now for the first time wouldn't think the original effect was CGI too? The leap to assume CGI is in large part because people are used to it now. If you took a 12yr old today who is used to everything being CGI for special effects - he would probably assume the same thing. It's what he knows.

    People would assume CGI because it's something they know can't be done in reality... they also know a ghost can't possibly be sitting next to them so they might make a similar assumption of the effect that it's some rendering.
    The originals were real figures and looked like real, physical figures, and anyone can see the difference quite plainly. I seriously doubt anyone would think the original effect was done via CGI.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    CGI and projection in themselves are not bad - it's all about execution and the results. Most people don't seem to have a problem with the results here.
    CGI would be just fine if it were done correctly, but it was not. It was poorly done, and disrupts the continuity from the previous scene of the real trio. They don't even look like their supposed to be the same ghosts - just "similar" in appearance.



    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey13 View Post
    No, sorry. You just can't win this one. If it were a projection of the whole scene everything would be flat, and it is not. You do know how two way mirrors work, right?
    I already explained that once. The 3D image of your neighbor's Doombuggy is a Pepper's Ghost reflection on the front of the glass. Looking directly at the mirror, you're seeing both the projection of yourself and a slight Pepper's Ghost effect at the same time. If it were the original mirrors it would be impossible to black out guests' heads for the effects. This can only be accomplished by dimming out the guests' heads in the real-time projected image behind the glass. The slight bit of Pepper's Ghost is why a guest's head doesn't quite disappear completely, and also why you can see the correct angle of your neighbor's car.


    Quote Originally Posted by clockworkmonkey View Post
    So I guess there ARE vampires in The Haunted Mansion!
    I was waiting for someone to say that...
    Last edited by Grinning Ghost; 08-08-2011 at 07:45 AM.

  8. #4478

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    The 3D image of your neighbor's Doombuggy is a Pepper's Ghost reflection on the front of the glass. Looking directly at the mirror, you're seeing both the projection of yourself and a slight Pepper's Ghost effect at the same time. If it were the original mirrors it would be impossible to black out guests' heads for the effects. This can only be accomplished by dimming out the guests' heads in the real-time projected image behind the glass. The slight bit of Pepper's Ghost is why a guest's head doesn't quite disappear completely, and also why you can see the correct angle of your neighbor's car.
    There's still a big problem with your explanation, GG. If it were correct, then when you looked sidelong at the reflections of other doombuggies and other guests in them, you would see TWO images superimposed. You'd get the natural, slight Peppers effect of the glass, giving the full 3D of reality which is plainly visible in all the photos and videos, AND you'd get a flat image of those buggies and guests slicing right through it in the same plane as the ghosts.

    Having said that, how they black out the faces of guests is frankly a mystery to me.
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  9. #4479

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is another dodge. Your original response, brief as it was, was a full response to its context. You said in effect, "I agree with you that they're not absolutely identical. They are different in size. But other than that, they look the same." If you later come back and say, "I didn't say they looked exactly the same" (and without reference to the size, which was never a point of contention), then you have indeed contradicted yourself, even with the full context on the table.
    You skipped over the part where I referenced the context of the correction. Here's a parallel for you.

    Joe says: "HBG2 doesn't know anything about the HM"
    Bill counters: "No way, HBG2 knows everything about the HM!"

    Bill's response is exaggerated to balance out the extreme exaggeration of the first assertion. Bill doesn't mean you know everything there is possibly to know about the HM inclusive and NOTHING is outside your knowledge -- Bill's response is scaled because of the initial assertion. MG13 claimed they don't look anything like the figures (as GG continues to do as well) - they most certainly look like the figures, but there are notable differences that are inconsequential to identifying the characters as the same from the previous scene. The guy's hair being more of a mess, or the which leg the ball is attached to, does not make you go 'wait a minute.. that's not him!!'. The tone of my response was scaled to balance out the extreme initial assertion.

    I mean, is no one to allowed to say a face character in DL looks 'just like' the character they are portraying unless they are a FLAWLESS reproduction of the original character?

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Stonewalling it does nothing to enhance your credibility in the debate.
    It's speech and language.. no need to harp on it more here. The intent and message has been elaborated on at length - take it or leave it.

    ---------- Post added 08-08-2011 at 12:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    I don't see any gains in it's current state. The originals were more convincing in that they really seemed to be there with you in the car - at least it seemed like that for a split-second, anyway
    Seemed to be there - but completely ignoring you.. or worse.. in conflict with you by being on top of you, etc. The effect was simple - there are many scenarios where it simply LOOKED just as simple and generic as it really was too. There is much to be said about the current version correcting all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    Their style and the execution matched the trio seen in the previous vignette. Other than their lack of motion, everything else about them was right. The CGI ones are not convincing at all, and don't match their AA counterparts in appearance.
    Subjective...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    The originals were real figures and looked like real, physical figures, and anyone can see the difference quite plainly. I seriously doubt anyone would think the original effect was done via CGI.
    Guests have no idea how the effect was done - why would they know they are 'real figures'? Again you're putting the cart before the horse. Newer generations are used to all special effects being CG in films, etc. There is way more to suggest they'd think a effect on a wall is projected then to suggest it's an old optical effect they have little or no reference to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    CGI would be just fine if it were done correctly, but it was not. It was poorly done, and disrupts the continuity from the previous scene of the real trio. They don't even look like their supposed to be the same ghosts - just "similar" in appearance.
    Keep beating that drum.. I'd wager people have no problem identifying the ghosts in the scene as the ghosts from the prior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Ghost View Post
    I already explained that once. The 3D image of your neighbor's Doombuggy is a Pepper's Ghost reflection on the front of the glass. Looking directly at the mirror, you're seeing both the projection of yourself and a slight Pepper's Ghost effect at the same time. If it were the original mirrors it would be impossible to black out guests' heads for the effects. This can only be accomplished by dimming out the guests' heads in the real-time projected image behind the glass. The slight bit of Pepper's Ghost is why a guest's head doesn't quite disappear completely, and also why you can see the correct angle of your neighbor's car.
    FWIW - I agree with you.. the people image has to be done via blackout in the video screen and the view of people across the room is caused by glare off the glass with t the light in the vehicle portion of the room.

    ---------- Post added 08-08-2011 at 12:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JCSkipr79 View Post
    Removed quote about banned member.
    People get banned here all the time. Lack of credibility is rarely the cause... it's usually more attitude or crossing of special topics that are dear to the site admins.
    Last edited by MickeyMaxx; 08-08-2011 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Grave dancing in quoted post.
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  10. #4480

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Bottom line: The new CGI effect SUCKS. The classic is still the best, just like the simple Pepper's Ghost effect in the ballroom is still and always will be, the best. Period.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The point being - you're taking a side-effect of the method chosen, and then making it to be one of the requirements to measure against, when it should be measured against the intended effect and purpose. Is it a loss to not see something as you move around it? certainly, but it's not needed in this effect and it's loss is far outweighed by other gains IMO.
    See, I don't like the effect because the AA was 3D. That was just to explain how it was more believable and more lifelike. Thats really what I care about.
    Last edited by mr. taag; 08-08-2011 at 01:18 PM.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    As you all keep rolling back to when your 'reasons' are debunked is.. you simply don't like the style and attitude they took. Just leave it at that - no need to construct justifications on why no should like it for X reasons that really don't hold up.
    There is also no reason to construct justifications on why everyone should like it for X reasons that some of us feel don't hold up. Your opinions are just as much opinions as everyone else's, and we can reason all day but the fact is everyone can find evidence to back up their preference. I recognize the good that you see in the effect but I don't necessarily agree with you. But I think it's fine that you like the new scene. And some debate is good. Just recognize it's not just the negative view that is opinion.

  13. #4483

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    The thing that has come out of all the PLQ/nu-HHG back-and-forth for me is a better understanding of the "feng shui" of the HM, an understanding of why the attraction has felt as organic and aesthetically unified as it has in the past, and why certain changes have felt so jarring. Specifically that the 1969 ride relies almost entirely on practical, theatrical effects. Effects that are rooted in lighting, in manipulation of space and perspective, and stagecraft. To me that provides the framework for everything that has worked going forward. Even when the 1969 ride used up-to-the-moment tech and film projections, they went out of their way to give them a dimensionality and physicality that blended well with the rest of the environment.

    If you have an oil painting, trying to daub some watercolor into it probably isn't going to work too well. If you have a ride geared to one particular aesthetic modality, jarring changes that don't take the effect on the whole into consideration are going to continue to stick out like a (hitchhiker's) sore thumb.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by WDITrent View Post
    Just recognize it's not just the negative view that is opinion.
    Except I've always called my view of the effect my opinion... I'm not the one coming up with all the justifications on why it's 'anything'. Some just feel the need to attack it with reasons they've offered up
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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    We do need to stop arguing debating about opinions. Saying things along the lines of "the new HHGs suck" holds no weight and can be used (on both sides) to death. The notion that the new projections appear CGI is pretty valid, just based on the fact that they are 2 dimensional (if there were some way to make them 3D, I would give more credit to the pro-effects side), and that they move like CGI characters would (very elastic/plastic, hair not moving the way real hair would, etc.). The notion that the old figures did look real is because they were. Real solid figures. Could they use the new 3-d technology that is coming out to fix this? I suppose, but then there are those people who cannot see 3-d, opining up another can of worms.

    I will take back my statement that the new HHGs do not look anything like the figures (I don't remember saying it, but aI wouldn't be surprised if I did). But, the average Disney fan will tell you that there are some considerable differences between the two Ezras.

    We've already stated the facts, lets not argue about the opinions.

    EDIT:
    I also want to ask if anyone has been stopped during the new HHG scene. Curious to know if they disappear, continue their antics, or the projections/screens just go blank and light up.
    *Sigh* look what these 'enhancements' did to our threads.

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