The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

[HBG2]

Dave at Daveland has gone and done it again. He's taken a photo from almost the same spot that an early photographer did, and once again it provides a dandy before-and-after for the original queue graveyard.





They're not exactly the same, so you can't make a perfect GIF out of them. Nevertheless, I adjusted the perspective a little on the old photo and came up with this. It's still interesting, even if it's not dead on:

[clockworkmonkey]

So... here's this flash game from Disney. HHG vs. Connie in The Black Widow Bride.

[FigmentJedi]

We got video of Surrell's presentation at the Florida Mansion last night. Includes a few tidbits about the "My Special Day at Chuck-E-Cheese Fun Crypts"
Jason Surrell Haunted Mansion presention at Disney Parks Blog meet - YouTube!

---------- Post added 09-30-2011 at 10:36 AM ----------

And the tour

[ttintagel]

From the video:

"A lot of us that are really doing our best to carry on the tradition of Walt Disney magic and take all of that very, very seriously"

If that's what you come up with when you're doing your best and taking it very seriously, I shudder to think what you'd do if you were goofing off.

[HBG2]

I haven't seen both videos all the way through yet (no time right now), only a few minutes of the second one, but I noticed that when Goodman introduced the Francis Xavier and Grandpa Marc tombstones, he went directly to "they're tributes." Just what I said: they aren't tombstones at all anymore; they're placards honoring X Atencio and Marc Davis and absolutely nothing else.

[FigmentJedi]

^Apparently they went with the "Buried standing up" justifcation while working on it, instead of you know, actually thinking things through better.

EDIT: And here's Carsillo's walkthrough of the crypt. Actually admits it might be reworked sometime down the line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7w0L...&feature=feedu

[SmellyOrangutan]

A better tour video, this one with Carsillo:
Haunted Mansion Imagineering Interactive Queue Tour, Disney World Trick or Treat Up 9/29/11 - YouTube

He gives the real reason for the size of the Gracey burial plot before it was lengthened.

[HBG2]

Wow, just wow.

If you're paying close attention, Carsillo's tour is (among other things) one, long continuous answer to his critics. Did you hear it?

In order:

1. Immediate reference to "the blogs." He's anticipating that someone may bring up a criticism from mine or MG13's or someone else's blog (this includes chatboards, one supposes), and he wants to deal with it right off the bat, give his defense, his response, and get that out of the way before the tour really gets going. He wants to know if he's got a hostile presence in his audience.

2. Back to the beginning for inspiration. He says he specifically went into the archives looking to discover more clearly what the ride was essentially all about, and he saw artwork and notes that aren't public. Translation: I've seen stuff by the original Imagineers that you haven't, so if I tell you you don't know what you're talking about, you're in no position to refute it. This cuts no ice with me. In the end, it's not what some of the Imagineers may have toyed with, tossed into the discussion, drew pictures of, etc. that counts (FASCINATING and instructive as that stuff no doubt is); it's what is actually there, what survived the process into the finished attraction, which we can all see. It's public. That's the masterpiece, not the chaos of ideas that were no doubt considered during the long process of creation.

3. It's not "The Haunted Mansion"; it's really "Disney's Haunted Mansion." Translation: Yes, this is too a fantasy environment, dadgummit. It's not a "real world" environment.

4. The twins. He immediately and explicitly refers to the "Oh no, KIDS in the HM?" criticism. Defends it by referring to a Blaine Gibson sculpture of a kid that was intended for the HM. So there. This leaves unanswered the question why the Gibson sculpture wasn't used. Is it because they wanted to use it but just didn't have a good place for it, or was it because someone said, "You know, it's cute, but...I dunno, it's not appropriate somehow," and that's what killed it. (Anyway, as I've said before, the twins aren't a big deal with me.)

5. The two headstones. He says plainly that you're supposed to imagine them buried beneath your feet. Why? To answer the critics, of course. Since the headstones are well above ground level in a planter, it's a pretty feeble response. I doubt if many (or any) think that there are supposed to be graves so situated.

6. Marc Davis artwork blah blah blah. Translation: "Cartoony? You want to see cartoony? Just look at Marc's artwork!" Yep, and the cartoonishness of that artwork was precisely what got screened out and left on the drawing board in case after case. Why do you suppose that was so?

7. The Raven ... is out for remodeling. He wasn't happy with the look of it (...either, you bloggers). I specifically complained that it's hard to imagine what the thing is supposed to be made out of. It's on a stone crypt, but it's not stone. Metal? Wood? When it comes back, we are told that it will be in the style of the bat stantions. Translation: It will look like a metal sculpture.

8. Master Gracey. The real story of the short tomb is told. Very mundane. Some of you critics and commentators have overactive imaginations.

9. The Sea Captain. He wanted to make it dark and scary, with the sea captain DROWNED (at sea), but another team member came up with the silly idea you see before you, with him drowned in the tub. Translation: It's not my fault it contradicts the painting of the mariner; I was overruled.

10. He's investigated crypts and tombs all over the world. Translation: I can find an example to justify most anything you see that you think is impossibly silly (or whatever). He gives no particulars. We know about the organ funerary monument. Even if he found something roughly like the tubsoleum in some remote corner of Timbuktu, is that enough to make it believable? Not unless the guests have seen something akin to it somewhere in their experience, like in a book.

11. No one's noticed all the 13's, and even at the "scholarly" blogs (sic!), no one has noticed the Caretaker's and dog's footprints. We're not getting credit for some of our good ideas, just criticism for the (allegedly) bad ones.

12. It's not just "homages"; they've added fresh new content. I hate to sound narcissistic, but in this case it is hard for me to avoid the suspicion that this is a highly specific response to my review at LF. My response is that there is nevertheless an unprecedented cascade of tributes here, and this represents a level of self-referentiality that can only be described as decadent. As I said, I don't want to go on the HM and have someone stopping me every four feet and reminding me how cool this ride is. And the new content is out of place, putting the HM into a fantasy world that I may now enter and visit rather than situated in what is recognizably a simulacrum of my world.


Then there are the general comments:

(1) We love love love this attraction (so stop talking like we gleefully took a sledgehammer to it). To be fair, these particular remarks may not be a reaction to anything.
(2) We have to keep tinkering with these rides so that future audiences will like them and the HM will pick up new generations of fans. It's a different audience today.
(3) Nothing is permanent. "If you don't like something, wait ten years and it'll be gone." I suppose the message is, "If this thing is as bad as you guys keep saying it is, then sooner or later that realization will become evident to everyone, and that means it'll be changed."


My responses, fwiw.

(1) I for one have never doubted their good intentions or their love for the ride.
(2) You can never catch that rabbit. Kids ten years from now may be into non-electric, Victorian-era visual amusements, in defiant reaction to the perceived shallowness of their techno-geek parents and their addled, Attention Deficit Disordered minds, and the original HM will be would be hotter than ever if it hadn't been "improved."
(3) Yeah, well, I may not live long enough. Maybe my grandkids will. This is a MAJOR investment and will not be changed soon or easily, no matter how widespread the consensus becomes that it's a bomb. At best, they'll tinker with it around the edges, when unfortunately only a bulldozer will do in this situation.

Did you notice that PLQ is so noisy you can hardly hear yourself yelling to a small group right around you? Reeeelly subtle, is that PLQ.

[HMF]

Wow, just wow.

If you're paying close attention, Carsillo's tour is (among other things) one, long continuous answer to his critics. Did you hear it?

In order:

1. Immediate reference to "the blogs." He's anticipating that someone may bring up a criticism from mine or MG13's or someone else's blog (this includes chatboards, one supposes), and he wants to deal with it right off the bat, give his defense, his response, and get that out of the way before the tour really gets going. He wants to know if he's got a hostile presence in his audience.

2. Back to the beginning for inspiration. He says he specifically went into the archives looking to discover more clearly what the ride was essentially all about, and he saw artwork and notes that aren't public. Translation: I've seen stuff by the original Imagineers that you haven't, so if I tell you you don't know what you're talking about, you're in no position to refute it. This cuts no ice with me. In the end, it's not what some of the Imagineers may have toyed with, tossed into the discussion, drew pictures of, etc. that counts (FASCINATING and instructive as that stuff no doubt is); it's what is actually there, what survived the process into the finished attraction, which we can all see. It's public. That's the masterpiece, not the chaos of ideas that were no doubt considered during the long process of creation.

3. It's not "The Haunted Mansion"; it's really "Disney's Haunted Mansion." Translation: Yes, this is too a fantasy environment, dadgummit. It's not a "real world" environment.

4. The twins. He immediately and explicitly refers to the "Oh no, KIDS in the HM?" criticism. Defends it by referring to a Blaine Gibson sculpture of a kid that was intended for the HM. So there. This leaves unanswered the question why the Gibson sculpture wasn't used. Is it because they wanted to use it but just didn't have a good place for it, or was it because someone said, "You know, it's cute, but...I dunno, it's not appropriate somehow," and that's what killed it. (Anyway, as I've said before, the twins aren't a big deal with me.)

5. The two headstones. He says plainly that you're supposed to imagine them buried beneath your feet. Why? To answer the critics, of course. Since the headstones are well above ground level in a planter, it's a pretty feeble response. I doubt if many (or any) think that there are supposed to be graves so situated.

6. Marc Davis artwork blah blah blah. Translation: "Cartoony? You want to see cartoony? Just look at Marc's artwork!" Yep, and the cartoonishness of that artwork was precisely what got screened out and left on the drawing board in case after case. Why do you suppose that was so?

7. The Raven ... is out for remodeling. He wasn't happy with the look of it (...either, you bloggers). I specifically complained that it's hard to imagine what the thing is supposed to be made out of. It's on a stone crypt, but it's not stone. Metal? Wood? When it comes back, we are told that it will be in the style of the bat stantions. Translation: It will look like a metal sculpture.

8. Master Gracey. The real story of the short tomb is told. Very mundane. Some of you critics and commentators have overactive imaginations.

9. The Sea Captain. He wanted to make it dark and scary, with the sea captain DROWNED (at sea), but another team member came up with the silly idea you see before you, with him drowned in the tub. Translation: It's not my fault it contradicts the painting of the mariner; I was overruled.

10. He's investigated crypts and tombs all over the world. Translation: I can find an example to justify most anything you see that you think is impossibly silly (or whatever). He gives no particulars. We know about the organ funerary monument. Even if he found something roughly like the tubsoleum in some remote corner of Timbuktu, is that enough to make it believable? Not unless the guests have seen something akin to it somewhere in their experience, like in a book.

11. No one's noticed all the 13's, and even at the "scholarly" blogs (sic!), no one has noticed the Caretaker's and dog's footprints. We're not getting credit for some of our good ideas, just criticism for the (allegedly) bad ones.

12. It's not just "homages"; they've added fresh new content. I hate to sound narcissistic, but in this case it is hard for me to avoid the suspicion that this is a highly specific response to my review at LF. My response is that there is nevertheless an unprecedented cascade of tributes here, and this represents a level of self-referentiality that can only be described as decadent. As I said, I don't want to go on the HM and have someone stopping me every four feet and reminding me how cool this ride is. And the new content is out of place, putting the HM into a fantasy world that I may now enter and visit rather than situated in what is recognizably a simulacrum of my world.


Then there are the general comments:

(1) We love love love this attraction (so stop talking like we gleefully took a sledgehammer to it). To be fair, these particular remarks may not be a reaction to anything.
(2) We have to keep tinkering with these rides so that future audiences will like them and the HM will pick up new generations of fans. It's a different audience today.
(3) Nothing is permanent. "If you don't like something, wait ten years and it'll be gone." I suppose the message is, "If this thing is as bad as you guys keep saying it is, then sooner or later that realization will become evident to everyone, and that means it'll be changed."


My responses, fwiw.

(1) I for one have never doubted their good intentions or their love for the ride.
(2) You can never catch that rabbit. Kids ten years from now may be into non-electric, Victorian-era visual amusements, in defiant reaction to the perceived shallowness of their techno-geek parents and their addled, Attention Deficit Disordered minds, and the original HM will be would be hotter than ever if it hadn't been "improved."
(3) Yeah, well, I may not live long enough. Maybe my grandkids will. This is a MAJOR investment and will not be changed soon or easily, no matter how widespread the consensus becomes that it's a bomb. At best, they'll tinker with it around the edges, when unfortunately only a bulldozer will do in this situation.

Did you notice that PLQ is so noisy you can hardly hear yourself yelling to a small group right around you? Reeeelly subtle, is that PLQ.

Well, to be fair he does admit that some design choices were not great. That being said, yeah, it does seem to be a point-by-point defense of what it is but in all honesty the concept might be worse then the actual design though there are some questionable design choices that even Carsillo admits too As much as I disagree with him I have to give him credit for admitting that there were certain things that could have been done better. Besides, Goodman had to say yes to everything. Don't think I am defending Carsillo too much, I just think we should appreciate that he responded despite how much we may strongly disagree with him. On a side note: The fact that Carsillo apprenticed under Blaine Gibson does not surprise me. Say what you will about the Dread Family but they are done in the Blaine Gibson style whether that is a good thing or not.I personally don't mind the Dreads that much outside of the Maude portrait that is/was part of the new HHG tableau

---------- Post added 10-01-2011 at 12:30 AM ----------

We got video of Surrell's presentation at the Florida Mansion last night. Includes a few tidbits about the "My Special Day at Chuck-E-Cheese Fun Crypts"
Jason Surrell Haunted Mansion presention at Disney Parks Blog meet - YouTube!

---------- Post added 09-30-2011 at 10:36 AM ----------

And the tour

I feel like screaming at Goodman when he leans on the Gracey stone. Goodman-"We want people to actually touch these tombstones" Yeah, Nothing could possibly go wrong there. Prudence's voice carries ridiculously loud as does the captains. If they are going to keep this thing at least turn the audio to those off and I might be able to tolerate it just a little bit more.. the voices may just be the absolute worst element of PLQ. As for Carsillo's it might be gone in 10 years comment I would be surprised if the Sea Captain lasts 3 and the singing is just ridiculous and the tub idea was from Michael "Where be Captain Jack Sparrow" Sprout. You should have gone with your original idea Pete, trust your own instincts. Goodman-Any other questions I have one-what were you smoking when you approved this stuff? OK, That might be a bit harsh but the logic concept wise behind this Queue baffles me.

---------- Post added 10-01-2011 at 12:48 AM ----------

From the video:

"A lot of us that are really doing our best to carry on the tradition of Walt Disney magic and take all of that very, very seriously"

If that's what you come up with when you're doing your best and taking it very seriously, I shudder to think what you'd do if you were goofing off.

I concur. It's probably even worse at night. Goodman irritates me. Carsillo I at least have some sympathy for, though I strongly disagree with his insistence on "Relevance" and he constantly contradicts himself on the "story" or lack thereof. On the other hand I agree with him 100% about the HM movie. Also I hope the new Raven actually looks like it is made of stone. He also more or less states that WE indirectly designed the thing which is both flattering and embarrassing at the same time. Embarrassing because what they did wrong they did VERY wrong but I think we should give them credit for what they did right. I hate to disagree with HBG2 but I have no problem with the Dread Family busts. The Bride's ring is a nice touch as is the Caretaker and Dog footprints. Of course the new tribute stones are nice (Except Marc, X and Collin should be put back on the hill with the others And here's hoping the new Raven actually looks like it is organically part of the crypt.

[Timchat2]

At least someone near the end of the Carsillo tour asked about the necessity of an "enhancement" to an attraction that has proven with its four decades of successful operation that is does not need to be made more interesting off a vague fear of future generations not embracing it. I honestly started to feel a little sorry for him because it seems the criticisms of the queue have hit home.

And you are right. I never noticed how ridiculously noisy the queue is. How can the Imagineers not notice this? Are they really that stuck with the decisions pushed upon them?

[HMF]

At least someone near the end of the Carsillo tour asked about the necessity of an "enhancement" to an attraction that has proven with its four decades of successful operation that is does not need to be made more interesting off a vague fear of future generations not embracing it. I honestly started to feel a little sorry for him because it seems the criticisms of the queue have hit home.

And you are right. I never noticed how ridiculously noisy the queue is. How can the Imagineers not notice this? Are they really that stuck with the decisions pushed upon them?

Yes they were, the idea of loud interactive queues was forced upon them by TDO. They could have done a better job designing it but the concept was flawed to begin with.

[HBG2]

At least someone near the end of the Carsillo tour asked about the necessity of an "enhancement" to an attraction that has proven with its four decades of successful operation that is does not need to be made more interesting off a vague fear of future generations not embracing it. I honestly started to feel a little sorry for him because it seems the criticisms of the queue have hit home.

And you are right. I never noticed how ridiculously noisy the queue is. How can the Imagineers not notice this? Are they really that stuck with the decisions pushed upon them?

I am dead certain that they didn't anticipate anything like the criticism they got. They went out of their way (they think) to communicate to the hardcore fans how much they are themselves true HM geeks, and the very people they thought would be among the most enthusiastic about the new queue were instead the ones who most fiercely attacked it. I also think that they mentally prepared themselves to defend it against only one kind of criticism: the reactions of knee-jerk purists who complain about any change or addition of any kind. I don't think they anticipated at all that there would be scathing and detailed criticisms of the concepts. It's possible that they didn't even foresee criticisms of the placement of the new stuff in the show.

It is very true that you can't single out one villain. This was a team effort, and any particular abomination you focus upon might be the brainchild of any of several people. It is probably true that there elements in there that are secretly (or maybe even not so secretly) despised by one or another members of the team.

[TheHatboxGhost]

And the tour

Good gawd, that's HORRIBLE. I'm only 4:20 into it and I can't watch any more. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. My teeth are rattling inside my mouth!!! AUGH!!!!

Dear Mr. Goodman,

If you have to explain and justify it -- on other words, if no one "gets" it -- it doesn't work and/or is a bad idea. You do, however, appear to be very good at saying, "Yes."

Sincerely,

Hatz

---------- Post added 10-01-2011 at 05:53 PM ----------

I made the mistake of watching more. It just gets worse.

Who designed those crypts, you say? Sarah Winchester?? Ah, that explains all the thirteens. Psychosis.

What was that you said? "Glub-glub"? Or was it, "Flub-flub"?

Yes, you certainly did flub that one.

[ww12345]

Wow.

First impressions from the Carsillo video:
My God, is that queue noisy! Carsillo had to stop a number of times to wait for the sound to die down. A number of the sound FX could be heard from the entrance to the queue, as well, proving that you cannot just simply "ignore it."
Also, how old is the queue? It's only a few months old and already some of the visual effects are malfunctioning. Playful spooks, possibly?
He also mentions that their HHG are the best. They both seem to be enthusiastic about the HHG Dread tableau, which we've pretty well pointed out is this side of Nutsville.
Additionally, Carsillo points out the fact that the average attendant is not the same as forty years ago, because the crowd that night was able to find out about a non-publicized event. I wonder what his explanation would be for the hordes of people that showed up at the DL Mansion on the Aug 9-11, 1969 opening?
He also mentioned the lack of response on the "scholarly blogs," undoubtedly referring to HBG2, about the caretaker and dog footsteps. Isn't that the point of good Imagineering? To be so well detailed you don't even notice it? Simple lights would do all throughout the Mansion, yet WED made sure to use period-correct gas-operated lights.
The whole time, it seemed as though he was almost furious with us, the "fans," for not accepting the bundle of tributes and homages. He was quick in the beginning to say that they didn't want to add anything to detract from the original intent, but by the end, he decided to change that by adding that the WDI team didn't want to create a bunch of homages, but also wanted to add content. I guess he was able to justify it by stating that it was no longer the Haunted Mansion, it was Disney's Haunted Mansion. I doubt Walt would approve of that mess.
I'm with HBG2, it's like someone is following me through the queue, shouting how awesome the ride is at me.

[TheHatboxGhost]

As I've said before, these queue elements would be better situated in a children's playground area, away from the grounds of The Haunted Mansion, or outside of a Haunted Mansion-themed shop and/or restaurant, a la Chuck E. Cheese and, again, away from the attraction. I'm not kidding. They are that out of place, where they are now.

---------- Post added 10-01-2011 at 06:11 PM ----------

The new Hitchhiking Ghosts are a joke -- a very BAD joke.

I've decided that the McMansionland Playground/Pepe LeQueue is so loud to drown out the sound of Walt Disney spinning in his grave.