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  1. #5386

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Another little tidbit from flickr, of the long-forgotten/rare sort: Anyone remember running into this ghoul outside the Mansion circa 1990?



    Sorry for the background looking a little odd...the gentleman without a head is not a ghost, but a quick-and-dirty photoshop session to get rid of a stupid sticker on the original photo. (1990 8-9 October Disneyland Visit (31) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!)

    Definitely has the Phantom of the Opera vibe going, and this is most certainly the rear queue...don't know what the 'screen' is there for above the wall, working on the berm hill maybe or replanting?
    when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Hmmm. I can't find a familiar point of orientation. The railings look wrong to me, and there are no trees in the queue area itself like that.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

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  3. #5388

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    The lack of the crypts on the wall bugged me too...but not sure where else such a character would be, and the rest of the set is definitely Disneyland (typical views).

    The corner he is standing at looks 'right' to me, and the guy lounging behind him is at the proper position to be behind the pet cemetery wall (but that might not be there yet). It could be that is what is throwing us off...this might be pre-front pet cemetery queue configuration.
    when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

  4. #5389

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Interesting thread Smelly. The author reminds me of a now-banned member here. I'd like to see the facts set straight on the various matters.

    BTW, I am sooo greatful that the posters here are so much more polite than the posters on that site.

    >>>>>

    I was wrong about the grand staircase. I was happy to see the blueprints though.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I still can't place it, but it inspired a...


    Superpost

    This is a good example of why we still need the Thread. For the LF blog, this is (1) a little too speculative, (2) the graphics are too crude, and (3) it's a little too hypergeekish.

    I've always wanted to get a better feel for the history of that garden wall. It's amazing how few old pictures there are. Today it looks like this:





    The wall has three levels. It's very low over by the house. That part is obscured from the front nowadays by the thick vegetation that has grown up behind the cat-and-bird set and Freddie the Bat, but I think it's been there unchanged since the HM opened. Then there's the tall section where the pet cemetery plaques are mounted. Finally, you finish with a medium-high section going up to the entry gate to the back queue. You can see the three levels better on the other side. The tall portion is (needlessly) circled. Pet plaques are on the other side of this, of course. In this photo, you can barely see the low section back there.



    I've been trying to piece together the history of this wall all morning, and I think I've got it pretty well in place, but some of it is tentative.

    I've once again used and abused Data's 3D rendering and frankensteined together a crude graphic of the original layout, side by side with the current layout (minus the Fastpass garden).



    By the way, that wall alongside the family plot, which is no longer there, should not be confused with the larger wall removed before opening day. That wall was closer to the house. I can't claim 100% accuracy for the scale in this montage, but it's pretty close.



    It was hard to verify the existence of the short wall at the end of the planter (opposite the family plot), which ended with a matching brick pillar for the gateway you went through as you left the family plot area. I think you can see it in this photo:



    A couple of photos showing the now-removed wall. You can barely make out both brick pillars in the second one. The lights on top are both easy to see. And between the heads of two of the girls, you can see a fragment of that short wall, verifying that it was there and we are reading the above photo correctly.





    The fact that the wall running along behind the long planter jutted up at one point and so had two heights was another toughie. You can see the higher section in the lower left corner of this shot:



    That isn't a brick pillar. Those have gray cement square caps covering most of the top. I think the drop to the medium level is right at the very edge of that fourth photo up. Only a single brick at the top shows it (if that's what it is).

    A couple of 1971 photos, when the original layout was still there. This first one is tough to use, thanks to the fencing and the plants between us and the wall.



    Best I can analyze it, I see this:



    That spot where the wall drops from the high section to the lowest section can be seen at the far left in this photo, as well as a clear view of the low section.



    This is one of my favorite HM photos. Very nice, from 1980.



    It also happens to be high-rez, so we can lighten it and zoom in a bit.



    Can't see much, but I think you can make out all three wall levels. Much is obscured by the conical shrubs. This one is nice, however, for orienting the big Macadamia Nut tree (in green).



    The conical bushes seem to have been around since the beginning. Here's that 1966 shot again.



    And for good measure, a closer look at that 1967-68 photo Regions found the other day. That's the wall that was removed before the HM ever opened.

    Last edited by HBG2; 03-03-2012 at 10:04 AM. Reason: It's a Macadamia Nut tree, not a Magnolia
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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    And how about a followup?

    There's a lot of interesting but tantalizingly vague stuff that went on between the enclosure and the house. Some of it is baffling.

    Here's a 1962 construction shot. Notice the different levels. There was going to be a garden-like area (apparently) on a sort of terrace, and the whole enclosure complex was actually going to be higher than the house itself.



    Here's that 1965 aerial again. You can see the contours of the terracing. In one spot it is casting a shadow.





    Now that you know the outline, these photos make more sense. That curved wall in the foreground is actually convex, not concave.





    The arched opening in the wall in the first pic is also visible (barely) on a blueprint, which unfortunately I do not have in very high rez. You can also see the dual layers. It mentions the "garden walls and fencing."









    One mystery is the nature of that back wall, and whether it was the only wall. In that 1962 construction shot up top, you can see a rather modest wall going up. But in this 1964 shot, the wall is monstrous, sticking up even above the big side wall:







    And it doesn't really look like it's the back wall, as the side wall looks like it continues on past it. And yet, in the 1965 aerial shot (taken the next year), the enclosure looks like a simple, empty rectangle. In the following 1966 shot again, it almost looks like that big wall is sticking up, like in the 1964 shot, but this time you can see that the side wall has more than one height, and it looks like the wall may go up to meet that taller back wall. That's probably the case in the 1964 shot too, but the tree almost obscures the rise in the wall at that point.



    I have no idea what they were doing back there, but when you compare all these photos, it seems like it was in a lot of flux.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    And now we'll complete our trifecta of trivia. One more post on the mysterious enclosures built beside the HM. Yes, enclosures, because there's a second one to the north of the house that hasn't received any attention. I have almost nothing to say about it, no information, no really good theories. It's a complete mystery. You can see it plainly in that now-familiar aerial shot:



    It's on the model:



    You can see it in other aerial photos:



    It's there as the building goes up in '62, so that rules out any "site of the Museum of the Weird" theories. The MoW concept dates firmly to 1964.



    On the model and in the 65 aerial, you can see the nicely built entrance, similar to the other enclosure with its overlapping walls. It seems likely that this was an area intended to be open to the public.

    You've seen these two shots before, from 1966. They were taken at the same time, when the park was evidently closed (note the bicycle).







    I don't attach much importance to that sign. I don't think this was ever an entrance to the Indian Village, and what kind of motor vehicles are going to navigate that narrow bend, anyway? Motorcycles? I think the sign was just shunted in there for the time being and would normally be seen over by the tunnel entrance to Indian Village, which is just yards away.



    That second '66 shot is of the site where the exit to the ride is found today.



    In that '65 aerial, you can plainly see the row of small round shrubs behind the enclosure as well as the funeral cypresses in front of it (note their shadows). Those plants are easy to spot in shots like these (1966 again). Makes it easy to orient yourself as to the exact location of the mystery enclosure.



    Today that space is occupied by a bunch of crypts and not open to the public. The original pet cemetery is right next to it. These are Datameister pix:






    In my recent blog post I puzzled over the anachronistic rendering of the enclosed graveyard to the south of the house in this '80's era map sketch. But I have been informed that the sketch actually dates from 1968 (before the place opened) and was just reused over and over. In 1968 they still had the old graveyard enclosure to the south, so that explains it.



    The only clues I can find for the northern enclosure are the suggestion on this map that the graveyard would continue on that side and the fact that it looks like it was going to be open to the public at first. A second graveyard? I don't think they ever seriously expected to have people go behind the house, as in the sketch. Even if you take out the lean-to stairwell entrance back there (which is not on the 62 blueprints), you still have only about a six foot wide space, and it's no wider on the blueprints either. I would think that's too narrow for a public passageway.

    I don't even know what the current set of crypts in that space is for. Something mundane, I imagine. Maybe Data knows something?

    [EDIT]: And I just got a communication from "Telpeurion" over at the blog:
    HBG2, in your post on the Long Forgotten Haunted Mansion thread over at Micechat, you asked what the crypts adjacent to the attraction exit were being used for. The alcove between the exit crypt and the Pet Cemetery houses numerous poles, ropes, and signs for use in crowd control. You can see Fantasmic! cast members returning their equipment here shortly after the last showing. The other side, which you will find gated, leads around a corner to a small custodial break room and closet, and stairs that lead down into the Mansion show building.
    -------------------------------------

    Okay, total change of subject. I noticed that there are design features in common between a fountain at DL and one of the new ornamental graveyard fixtures at WDW. I don't suppose it's anything more than a coincidence, but it's interesting nonetheless.

    Last edited by HBG2; 03-01-2012 at 04:28 PM.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

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  8. #5393

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I'm in hyper-geek heaven. That is a lot of trivia!!

  9. #5394

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    I don't attach much importance to that sign. I don't think this was ever an entrance to the Indian Village, and what kind of motor vehicles are going to navigate that narrow bend, anyway? Motorcycles? I think the sign was just shunted in there for the time being and would normally be seen over by the tunnel entrance to Indian Village, which is just yards away.


    That picture is just priceless. Just love the look on those people's faces.
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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Awesome!
    Janet
    John 3:16

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    I was so pleased with this graphic, crude as it is, that I decided to work on it some more, in order to make it more accurate. From a graphic design perspective, it's still not perfect, but it's a lot better.



    So once again, apologies to Datameister for tinkering around with his stuff. Here's the latest version. I put the fastpass area back in, lightly. It took awhile to confirm that the planter was indeed added later and not original. A lot of other stuff has been tweaked, too.

    Last edited by HBG2; 02-28-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    *Passport to Dreams Old & New: On Integrity
    Good (but depressing) read.

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Yes, it is a good read, and it makes a good point. Having never been to Orlando, I can't get a feel for it. DL opened one month after I was born, and I grew up with it down there in Southern Cal, while the Florida park opened when I was in my mid-teens. It will always seem psychologically like the "new" park to me, "much younger" than DL.

    ---------------------------

    Okay, it's another SUPERPOST. I have become intrigued with that mystery area north of the DL HM and haven't been able to leave it alone, since I've always wondered about that cluster of crypts but had little information about it and only the vaguest sense of the layout. So I boned up.

    Today, we draw back the curtain (a little). This is almost worth a post at LF, but it's a tad too hypergeeky, with a couple items still too fuzzy. A big hat tip to Datameister, RegionsBeyond, Allen Huffmann, and Daveland for the photos.

    I'm certain that when the HM was built, that area was going to be publicly accessed. I think it probably was going to be home to another graveyard of some kind.



    Any excuse to repost this one. No, really; it happens to be one of the best shots of that area. Honest. Cross my heart.



    Remember that the HM was going to be a walk-thru at this time. There was no show building until 1968. The attraction's exit had yet to be worked out.

    When the ride was finally built, that area was commandeered for the exit area. There are six structures over there today.







    The main exit (at the end of the escalator) and one emergency exit use that square. We'll go building by building. #1 is of course the exit crypt. It has two heavy doors to close it up, but one or both of them is taken off the hinges entirely when the ride is in use. I haven't seen them in any recent photos, so they may not use them regularly anymore. These are from the '90's. (Note the rather ugly exit sign on a pole that used to be there.)

    Left hand door in place:



    Right hand door in place:



    No doors.



    That pic with the right door in place is useful for orienting yourself when you look at this pic, taken at the same time. You're facing the exit crypt (#1). The gate to your right is kept closed (marked in blue on the numbered diagram above), but you can see the squarish crypt (#2) next to the exit crypt with its severe but handsome columns, and you can see a little of the emergency exit crypt (#5) around the corner.



    Regions Beyond got a better pic of this area, and Datameister managed to get his camera in far enough to get part of the very attractive door on #5.





    To the left of crypt #1 is a narrow passage leading to the empty place behind it, used for storage. It too has a good-looking door on it (marked in blue on the diagram). Another RegionsB shot shows it:



    Datameister got a sneak peak behind the door.



    Buildings 1, 2, and 3 are all one building, of course, disguised on the outside to look like three crypts. Big, squarish #2 juts forward further than the exit crypt (#1), but it's just the end of the escalator ascent.





    That last photo, take by Data from "the street," confused me for awhile until I realized crypt #5 is right there on the right, almost obscured by foliage. I didn't realize it was in the picture.

    Crypt #3 has a nice round arch on the side facing the HM, but it's plain on the other side, which is not easily seen by the public. From this vantage point you can see it and how much room there is behind #1. These next four are Data shots.







    In this one you can see a little of the plainer side of #3, and again #5 is partially obscured but there on the right.



    Structure #4 is just a huge sarcophagus slab, extending much of the way through the pet cemetery. Structures #2, #3, and #4 are covering the escalator tunnel.



    When Splash Mountain was being built, guests got a rare clear view of the exit crypt complex from a northern angle, a view no one will ever get again. You can very plainly see the back of crypt #5, the emergency exit, in all four of these pix. Two are from 1987. First one is June 3rd. Second one is Sept 2nd:





    There is no sign of building #6 in either of those. This is a small maintenance closet, and that corner is a maintenance break area, according to "Telpeurion." But #6 is visible in both of these shots from 1988, so it seems that #6 may have been put in between September of '87 and May of '88.



    This last pic is from the outsidetheberm blog and the best of the four:



    Notice how the excavation reveals where the emergency exit staircase comes up behind #5? Kewl. Looks like #6 has a curved roof. It's the building I've got the least to go by as far as dimensions are concerned, so the diagram has to be taken with a bit of reserve in that corner.

    If you take one of the blueprints we refer to frequently around here, you can line it up almost perfectly with that 1965 aerial shot of the HM (which is fun).



    But if you do, the exit escalator and emergency exits do not line up right. They're too far north. So there must have been some significant architectural alterations in order to get those to come up inside this unused graveyard site.



    It's not the lost Père Lachaise graveyard scene, but at least the northern enclosure did get a graveyard. I suspect that it's supposed to read like the uttermost tip of the backyard cemetery, wrapping around and coming out to the street alongside the house. The crypts are in exactly the same plain style as the crypts in the graveyard scene inside.





    Last edited by HBG2; 03-01-2012 at 06:14 PM.
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  14. #5399

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    This thread never fails to amaze me.

  15. #5400

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    Re: The Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect Thread 7: Further Realms of Fright

    Great post and pulling together of materials, HBG2....thank you!
    when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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