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  1. #16

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    My .02

    AA's should be used when nessesary and should be used offten. Actually they are underused, IMHO. I think the POOH jaunt would be more palitable with AA's. I get the same effect opening up and reading a book as in POOH.

    I would love to see some (humen) AA's added to BTMRR. Maybe on the hills. Ghosts, prospectors, etc.

  2. #17

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    No longer does an AA figure have any impact on bringing guests out to a park. It is all about immersing someone into an attraction or show by using all sorts of effects, ride systems, and techniques that may make it a personal experience to them...If an AA figure will compliment a story or theming of an attraction, then they will be incorporated. Otherwise you will not see any attraction being built again that is the vehicle for a slew of AA figures to be displayed or used as the central focus of the marketing campaign to entice people to come to the parks.
    The first two sentences here are contradictory, and it seems like she missed the real point of the lament for AA's. AA's are part of immersing someone in an attraction.
    As for the rest of this quote, I should hope that AA's would be used to compliment a story if they were going to be incorporated in an attraction. AA's do not need to be the central focus of their marketing, a good immersive storyline should be.
    All in all, it is kind of depressing to read what she had to say.

  3. #18

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    I actually AGREE with Marcie.

    AA's are not novel anymore in themselves, and as she said their presence is story driven more then for the sake of them being part of a critical mass of them. Big tableau rides are really boring to today's kids. Nothing speaks to them. You just watch as nothing happens directly to you. Movies have created an expectation in the audience and appetitie for those movies to be dimensional, but most rides cannot deliver in real time what the films they are based on give you in the theater.

    Me predicts the big tableau format (the last was TDS Sinbad which IMHO was dull)is rightfully dead, till they do "Girls gone wild" with AAs.


    The real topic is that Disney let AA technology down, or at least walked away from it. WDI slowed investment in furthering the technology when coasters became more in vogue. there was no cal from the designers so the research slowed to a trickle. They would be attractions in themselves if they were all as good as "Lucky" the Dinosaur (the exception). The Japanese have made Robots that are more sophisticated and human than anything that Disney has done, but they cost big bucks. Disney will not spend to retain the AA crown. And maybe they made the right choice. I don't thnk there is a significant audience for the "Western River Expedition". Do you?

    Ghosts and Pirates are only second to Dinosaurs (and maybe Space) in timeless genres to be immersed in. Nostalgia is the other rerason those shows still draw. Count how many people in HM know the spiel and recite it to everyone's misery. I'd say that Countdown (or Dinosaur) is the biggest AA show to come along in a while as it has many big and elaborate beasts. Execution makes the show, not the actors. How many star driven flops have we all seen? Mansion and Pirates are better executed than the others and like Marcie said, it all depends on wether the story calls for it. I think if you want to duplicate human interaction, there needs to be either more investment to make them into jaw droppers, or more convincing ways to do it than slow dolls as AA as usually turned out to be. (Good news! I heard the Buzz figure is really good!)

    My 2 cents.
    "As usual he's taken over the coolest spot in the house"- Father re: Orville 1963

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  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    Rides that only half the guests can go on??!?!
    I guess I should clarify that by calling a ride "Indy-caliber", I'm not necessarily talking about the ride itself, merely the care and attention to detail that went into the whole production. I think it's perfectly feasible to create a ride as thematically detailed as Indy without Indy's thrill-factor.

    I also agree with Orville above that times and audiences have changed to the point where kids today wouldn't respond as positively to a Pirates type ride as they did decades ago, and that much of the enduring value is in the nostalgia. I think any kind of contemporary entertainment needs to be proportional to a more sophisticated audience, which was definitely the case with Indy. While AA's are cool for those of us old enough to remember "back in the day", the younger crowd simply won't appreciate them to that same degree.
    "I could never convince the financiers that Disneyland was feasible because dreams offer too little collateral"

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  5. #20

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    Oh.... and my grandpa (an octogenarian, to be sure) absolutely LOVES Indy.
    "I could never convince the financiers that Disneyland was feasible because dreams offer too little collateral"

    --Walt Disney

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-ticket
    I also agree with Orville above that times and audiences have changed to the point where kids today wouldn't respond as positively to a Pirates type ride as they did decades ago, and that much of the enduring value is in the nostalgia.
    I reject this assertion.

    The Six Flags teens types won't respond as well as, say, Indy. But they aren't the ones that make the vacation decisions. Six Flags has positioned itself to attract "today's teens", and they've lost $275 million over the last 3 years.

    Moms and Dads make the decision on big family vacations like Disney targets. Pirates type rides WILL appear to parents.....

    And 10-20 years from now, today's teens will be the parents making the vacation decisions, and they'll have the nostalgia for any ride built today that I have for Pirates and Mansion.

    And my father... only 65.... wouldn't go anywhere near Indy. Even my sister and her husband, 40ish, compared it to being in a car wreck.

    Indy, while very popular with a certain segment (which I myself am in) does not have the mass appeal of a slower, highly immersive, AA filled dark ride like mansion or pirates.

  7. #22

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    AAs may not be novelties anymore, but they still pack a punch. The newer animatronics are amazing! Like Tom Morrow in Innoventions. For Indy, its not an AA based attraction because it doesn't require a large amount of AAs to fit the story. You just need a few Indys and a giant snake.


    Mice Man, I'm afraid that I disagree with you. WDI has not lost sight of having attractions with immersive experiences. They would if they wanted too, but they can't because people like Paul Pressler, Cynthia Harriss, and Michael Eisner never approved of high budgets for attractions to save on cost. This is the reason why DCA and Pooh failed.
    Hail Matt Ouimet, the savior of Disneyland!

  8. #23

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    We talk about DCA being a cheap park....

    Somewhere between the rumored $600 million and the officially filed with the city of Anaheim $1 billion.

    Well, someone (like Disney), could walk in and buy Six Flags Inc, including all 30 Six Flags parks and rights to sell Looney Toons and DC comics merchandise at the parks, for a grand total of $450 million dolars (plus assuming the $2.5 billion in debt).

    Now, am I suggesting they do that? Of course not. Those parks are in HORRID shape physically and financially. They targeted the teen market, which DEMANDS you add a giant new coaster every couple years. You can't make money like that!

    The point is, why would Disney want to make the same mistake? Why would they want to target every new E-Ticket at the thrill seeking teen/young-adult market?

    Why have they given up building rides for families to enjoy toghether?

    I fear that the answer is as simple as "maintenance costs". The cost to maintain Screamin or BTMRR has to be WAY lower than the costs of constantly overhauling the dozens upon dozens of AAs in pirates. This was the reason that was given for removing the 5th dimension room from ToT.... 50% of the maintenance budget for the ride was associated with the lateral movement in the 5th dimension room.

    All else being equal, the lower maintenance budget required for a ride, the more profitable the ride.

    But, my assertion is that not all else is equal. Right now, Disney is counting on Hoppers, APs and 2-fers to fill DCA. With a couple Pirates/Mansion type dark rides(and several land rethemings), I believe they could fill the park with people paying $35 a day to be there. Just a couple more ToT type rides won't do that... I think... A couple more ToT type rides will put them on course to be like Six Flags... forced to add a new E-Ticket every 2-3 years, forever, or their teen markets simply quits coming. BAD financial move!

  9. #24

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    If rides are like art, the medium is not the message.
    "As usual he's taken over the coolest spot in the house"- Father re: Orville 1963

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  10. #25

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    It seems the assumption here is that only AA-based rides can be for the entire family, with HM and POTC as the examples given. If Disney were to suddenly proliferate with AA rides, that might take away from the experience that we now get on these two existing rides. I'm in agreement that Disney shouldn't become a new Six Flags, but at the opposite end of that spectrum, we don't want them adding massive new AA rides every year or two... that would get old really fast.

    What I would challenge the imagineers to do is come up with interesting, story-based rides that use the necessary technology appropriately. If that technology includes AA's, then great, but just having them en masse won't automatically create a ride that everyone can enjoy.

    Please, please please.... no more painted plywood and cheap fiberglass figures.
    "I could never convince the financiers that Disneyland was feasible because dreams offer too little collateral"

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  11. #26

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    WOW that was heavy reading!

    I think Indy is great and TOT could be better (que line anyways).
    But yes there needs to be a middle ground for the family. It is just more difficult in todays world, things change.

    "This guy!"

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    They demand that the CEO, through the board, has NO adenda other than increasing the stock price, and doing it NOW!
    That isn't true of all investment bankers... A good example is Warren Buffet, the second richest man in the world... He recently pulled all his stock from DIS because he lost faith in it's abilty to provide sustainable growth over the long term... (That is a pretty profound statement from a guy who most investment bankers turn to for advice...)


    The point is moot. He's been dead 39 years. He no longer has a say.
    Actually he does have a lot to say, if you wanted to listen... What you mean is he doesn't have the power to make the decision... That is differant...


    Any conversation about DisCo must be within the context of today's reality. It is owned by people that want profits, and they want them now.
    Again I disagree with you on this point... A conversation about DisCo must be in the context of sustainable growth for the long term as well as the short term investors... They don't just want profits now, they want profits 20 years from now!

    The truth is Eisner "sold out" most of this best long term investors when he bought CapCites when given the option of repurchasing stock after the big tech bubble burst.

    I don't totally disagree with you in the general sense regarding building more POTC type rides... but I needed to point this misconception about the investment community out...
    Check out my other blog:

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound
    Actually he does have a lot to say, if you wanted to listen...
    I've played the "find quotes from Walt to support your side of the argument" game too many times. He had a lot to say, and he said a lot of contradictory things in and out of context. The fact is he, like anybody else, was a complicated human being, capable of changing his mind and holding differing opinions based on specific circumstance. He was also a master of public image and saying whatever made the public happy. If we are to take everything the man said as gospel, then we are to believe that "up a waterfall" is the one and only logical conclusion to the question of how to get out of somewhere you entered by going down a waterfall. Without him here to answer for himself no one can answer the question of "what would Walt do?" with any certainty.
    Last edited by Bacon; 03-08-2005 at 02:14 PM.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    By far my longest post ever... but stick with it if yu can.

    ...

    And I'll grant that some of the AA focused rides have not stood the test of time, like World of Motion, Horizons, Spaceship Earth, Universe of Energy, and the one she mentions, The Great Movie Ride. But, on the flip side are pirates and mansion. 35+ years old and still going strong.
    . . .
    Disney has built 2 AA based, fantasy themed, highly immersive, non-cartoon based attractions. Both remain very popular even after 35 years of operation. Disney has bult a dozen or more non-fiction/edutainment-y based attractions... None of them have been able to remain highly popular for more than 10 or 15 years.

    Fantasy works if the goal is to create rides that will stand the test of time. Non-fiction does not. .
    I think you hit the nail on the head here - What we keep getting is thinly themed rides based on Cartoons - Pooh ride at DL is exactly that!, I hold out much hope for Buzz Lightyears Astro Blaster but it is still a Cartoon based "D" ticket ride (not that this is always bad mind you!) The SSL make over to Monsters inc will perpetuate this cycle even further.

    You don not need thrills to pack the crowds in so to speak, what you need is quality, these cartoon based attractions only provide short term quality which eventually the public grows weary of. Pirates and Haunted Mansion are the pinnacle of sucess for AA based rides. Ever since Splash Mountain in 1989, there was shift away from AA based immersive attractions and a move towards what Marcie mentions - using AA to "enhance" a ride. All of the Epcot rides were meant to have a life cycle, they served there purpose for there time of revelancy but in the end the message they broadcast becomes old and outdated as time wears on. The problem is that we need to continue with AA attractions instead of film based rides, but frankly it is a dollars and sense game out there and film based in considerably cheaper to base a ride off of (not that it produces as good an experience)

    We will have to continue to enjoy the legacy left for us from Walt - Tiki Room (DL only!), Pirates and Haunted Mansions across the globe as problby the most copied attractions in history.

    Thanks WDI

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-ticket
    It seems the assumption here is that only AA-based rides can be for the entire family, with HM and POTC as the examples given. If Disney were to suddenly proliferate with AA rides, that might take away from the experience that we now get on these two existing rides. I'm in agreement that Disney shouldn't become a new Six Flags, but at the opposite end of that spectrum, we don't want them adding massive new AA rides every year or two... that would get old really fast.
    I think that each park needs one or two of these. Not 8.... 1 or 2 per park.

    Disney parks need a balance.... Some Pan/Pinoc/Pooh (Monsters Inc) rides, some Dumbo/teacups/Flick's Flyer's rides, some HISTA/ITTBAB/Muppets/Philharmagic type shows, some ToT/Space Mt/Indy types rides.... AND some Pirates/Mansion/Spaceship Earth type rides. Were getting everything but the richly detailed, AA filled, highly imersive slow rides that can be enjoyed by the whole family.


    Quote Originally Posted by E-ticket
    Please, please please.... no more painted plywood and cheap fiberglass figures.
    Monste's Inc and a Woody's Round-UP are already in construction or in final approval. yeah....NOT

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