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  1. #46

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    ^ Outstanding post!
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
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  2. #47

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Pineapple, I suppose that I have to agree with you, and it's tough, because I don't like people swaying my opinions! You bring up some very valid points, especially with regards to entertainment for children. But alas, as I am not a parent, this kind of thing is less important to me right now. Just being honest. I am sure further down the road I will be fuming with the writers of the pathetic excuse for programming most TV networks have in the queues - especially ABC Family and Disney. But for now, I am more concerned with what is being delivered and directed towards my demographic, and I don't mind the cheesy.

    But if I am not being selfish for a minute and thinking about the kids, my impression is that they are being robbed. Robbed by the cell phone companies, the water parks (locker fees), and most importantly, entertainment. The television shows the Disney-owned networks have been putting out are cooking my grits and I actually feel less intelligent after letting the channel rest on them for a minute. I am not sure if written publications have gone the same direction, I sure hope not, but why wouldn't they have? It's pretty sad.

    Back to the subject at hand. Yes, the park is a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way, I think. We haven’t seen Disneyland take quite as drastic measures like this yet, although I still think some of the implementation, or at least early prototypes are/were pretty ballin. But you are right in that the attractions are carnival type - but are they carnival quality? Do they have that grease all over them and duct taped lap bars? Certainly not. And do the ride operators and hosts have a switch-blade comb sticking out of their mechanic-style coverall and a couple of crucial teeth missing? See, it is a safer, cleaner carnival atmosphere with adorable Pixar characters!

    I don't think this park reflects what has been done at our DLR completely, although there may be some loose applicable comparisons.

    I am going to back off on this topic a little in hopes that Cars Land knocks everyone's socks off and quiets the Pixar bashing a little. But you and I both know, no matter how things continue to evolve, or dissolve, there will always be critics. At least they still have that stone and anvil with the sword in it. It is glimmering beacon of optimism, and in my opinion, holds everything together.
    "Let's get weird" -Abraham Lincoln

  3. #48

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    No, I would have to say that he isn't a sell out, but more a victim of corporate politics reducing what great ideas he has and could develop into great attractions due to all the bean counters saying it has to be cheap, popular and easily copied. The same goes for them forcing him to say good things about the Tinkerbell movies and such.
    The fountain of youth really is in Florida... thats why they built Walt Disney World where they did.

  4. #49

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoygunaSurf View Post
    Back to the subject at hand. Yes, the park is a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way, I think. We havenít seen Disneyland take quite as drastic measures like this yet, although I still think some of the implementation, or at least early prototypes are/were pretty ballin. But you are right in that the attractions are carnival type - but are they carnival quality? Do they have that grease all over them and duct taped lap bars? Certainly not. And do the ride operators and hosts have a switch-blade comb sticking out of their mechanic-style coverall and a couple of crucial teeth missing? See, it is a safer, cleaner carnival atmosphere with adorable Pixar characters!
    If your local amusement park or traveling carnival were sparkling clean and mechanically perfect, the employees pleasant and clean cut (many Disney CM no longer fit that description), would you accept their "a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way" if it weren't Disney?

    Disney parks aren't compared to carnival quality. They aren't compared to amusement park quality. They shouldn't even be compared to other theme park quality (though other theme parks have surpassed Disney at times). Disney parks should only be compared to themselves. Unfortunately, Disney has let their quality suffer to the point where Disney now has a "worst" park, something that they have never had before DCA (and then Studio Tour Paris and HK Disneyland).

    As long as people allow Disney to slip in "a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way", each generation will be getting a poorer experience. Even those who aren't that totally drawn into the extent of quality that Disney has established their heritage on need to suck it up and accept and demand top quality form the company even if it's just for the advantage of future generations.

  5. #50

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Wow! This thread has struck some nerves (mine included, unfortunately...see apology to Mr Wiggans). I , too, think the mouse was a rascal! Let's give Mr Lassiter's vision some respect, and reserve judgement until all is said and done. I would never hold a carney to Disney standards, and won't accept those standards to be applied to Disney. So much angst being directed at the "mistakes" made with DCA. I'm more than willing to kick it and see what evolves. I prefer to hold onto a positive vibe that much will be improved. Naive?, Maybe, but one can hope.

  6. #51

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55 View Post
    If your local amusement park or traveling carnival were sparkling clean and mechanically perfect, the employees pleasant and clean cut (many Disney CM no longer fit that description), would you accept their "a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way" if it weren't Disney?

    Disney parks aren't compared to carnival quality. They aren't compared to amusement park quality. They shouldn't even be compared to other theme park quality (though other theme parks have surpassed Disney at times). Disney parks should only be compared to themselves. Unfortunately, Disney has let their quality suffer to the point where Disney now has a "worst" park, something that they have never had before DCA (and then Studio Tour Paris and HK Disneyland).

    As long as people allow Disney to slip in "a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way", each generation will be getting a poorer experience. Even those who aren't that totally drawn into the extent of quality that Disney has established their heritage on need to suck it up and accept and demand top quality form the company even if it's just for the advantage of future generations.
    You and pineapple made excellent posts
    Quote by Al:
    To that end I'd like the Internet community to join me in reminding the Disney company that "it all started with Walt." As you can see below we've created some T-shirts, plus a few simple graphics that you can copy and paste into your websites to let folks know how you feel.
    -Al Lutz



  7. #52

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Quote Originally Posted by seafaring_ghost View Post
    No, I would have to say that he isn't a sell out, but more a victim of corporate politics reducing what great ideas he has and could develop into great attractions due to all the bean counters saying it has to be cheap, popular and easily copied. The same goes for them forcing him to say good things about the Tinkerbell movies and such.
    This.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  8. #53

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?



    Quote Originally Posted by BoygunaSurf View Post
    But if I am not being selfish for a minute and thinking about the kids, my impression is that they are being robbed. Robbed by the cell phone companies, the water parks (locker fees), and most importantly, entertainment. The television shows the Disney-owned networks have been putting out are cooking my grits and I actually feel less intelligent after letting the channel rest on them for a minute. I am not sure if written publications have gone the same direction, I sure hope not, but why wouldn't they have? It's pretty sad.
    Oh I absolutely agree with you. Children's entertainment has gone down the toilet. Not that it has ever been perfect, but so much of it is dumbed-down, mindless, and unimaginative (and gender-stereotyped and biased...but that's for a whole different conversation).

    As far as I know, the best current Disney children's program is Phineas and Ferb...I wouldn't per say call it amazing, but it's a lot better than what is out there for the most part. But then, if you put Phineas and Ferb next to Avatar: The Last Airbender from Nickelodeon, it can't hold a candle. The latter is so good that it has a very strong adult following and has a sequel-series being made (the movie tanked, but that isn't because of the original source material by any means)...because it's a smart, well-developed story with strong characters and clever arcs. The creators knew that kids would appreciate this higher-level of storytelling and understand it, so it does not alienate particular audiences. It's a powerful, adult story, but the main characters are still kids and it's a cartoon on Nickelodeon. It's like Harry Potter...they have been written as children's books but people all over the world of all ages love it.

    But Disney seems to not be reaching that level for the most part, because they're afraid to take a risk...and I think that it's about time for them to.


    As for carnival-styled Disney rides...no matter how clean they are, they are still carnival rides and, for the most part, come off as cheap IMHO. It's not terribly creative on WDI's part. WDI used to be incredibly innovative and bring us new things that we had never heard of or seen before with technology...by shoving in a ferris wheel that we could ride basically anywhere else, I feel cheated. Slapping Mickey's face on it and putting it in a Disney Park isn't enough for me, nor is the scary sliding aspect. It's still a ferris wheel. If they wanted to impress me with the basis of a ferris wheel, they could make it suddenly slip in two and dance horizontally or something...

    Disney makes a lot of train rides. There are plenty of trains outside of Disney, but they are not themed to show us anything interesting. Disney trains take us on a themed journey. Heimlick's Chew Chew Train isn't the best Disney train, but at least I'm riding a caterpillar with a Disney voice I recognize, traveling through a watermelon and can smell the various things I'm passing.

  9. #54

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    I don't have children, Pinapplewhipaddict, but if I did, I would want you in my life. There is good literature out there, a whole biology of life experience, and a wide world of challenging concepts that Hannah, or Sweet life, or Scooby blithely ignore. We are dumbing down the future of so many of our children, and really have no one to blame but ourselves. Television could be a positive influence, but, sadly, as a babysitter, it's failing.

  10. #55

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Quote Originally Posted by blorgan View Post
    I don't have children, Pinapplewhipaddict, but if I did, I would want you in my life. There is good literature out there, a whole biology of life experience, and a wide world of challenging concepts that Hannah, or Sweet life, or Scooby blithely ignore. We are dumbing down the future of so many of our children, and really have no one to blame but ourselves. Television could be a positive influence, but, sadly, as a babysitter, it's failing.


    I don't have any children (yet) either, but I feel that it's really important to care about the opportunities, entertainment etc. that adults provide them. You remember certain things from your childhood and read things and suddenly things start to become rather troublesome. Nickelodeon has a commercial where they tell kids at the end to, "Stop dreaming and start watching!" -_- So depressing. The person who wrote that script more than likely didn't realize the other connotations of that line, but really, what are we training kids to do right now? Most of the entertainment we're seeing at this point are remakes...not too many original ideas (that could also be corporations not approving original ideas, as we've seen Disney do time and time again).

    As a parent or parental figure, it is crucial that adults encourage creativity in kids, allow them to daydream and play, let them have arts programs in school. Life is not simply divided into language and math. There is so much more to life and so many other skills you need! If a kid isn't doing well in school, it's not automatically their fault - a lot of the time the system is not catering to the way that individual actually learns things. If they do poorly in school, and have no class or extra-curricular activity that they excel at and enjoy, then they are discouraged and have no drive to do better. Automatically punishing kids by taking arts or sports away from them is not always the answer...parents, teachers, school administrators, even people in the entertainment industry need to also ask themselves, "What could I do better? What am I possibly doing wrong?" It is important that they think out of the box, so they can show kids how to think out of the box, too.

  11. #56

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    I don't think John Lasseter is a sellout. There's just too many (executive) factors that weigh in how the parks turn out. Money speaks louder than innovation these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    There is one other thing that does need to be addressed, and that is this idea of using one movie for the basis of an entire Land/District. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! The themes that Walt chose for the various lands were big enough to incorporate a wide variety of ideas, themes and even movies. Adventureland and Fantasyland in particular, and even Tomorrowland have served as a home for so many different characters for various movies over the years. BUT, by locking in a land to ONE specific movie, you just kill those kind of opportunities.
    I wholeheartedly agree with your whole post. I don't mind having attractions based on films, but having whole lands based on films restricts creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapplewhipaddict View Post
    Walt talked to kids like adults. He treated his family entertainment not as kiddie entertainment, but as something that quite simply the whole family could enjoy together. That was why he built Disneyland in the first place! He took his girls to a carnival and they rode the Merry-Go-Round while he sat on a bench and watched some trash scattered on the ground. He wanted to actively do things with his daughters, but he wanted to enjoy those things, too. So he created a place with family-friendly attractions where all ages could ride and enjoy together. Little Johnny, teen Rebecca, middle-aged Mary and 83 year-old Grandma can all enjoy Pirates of the Caribbean together and all take something different from it. That's what "family entertainment" is supposed to mean. For some ridiculous reason, people have tried to change the meaning of that term to mean "children's entertainment." It's a crime to the public and the entertainment industry and as a result we get lower-quality products. Originally, cartoons were watched by everyone! The original Mickey Mouse wasn't the 100% innocent straight man that Disney has been showing us for many decades now...he used to be a real rascal. They're trying to go back to the original concept more now, but we'll see how successful that is.
    Yes, yes, YES! Walt was all about appealing to the whole family, not just children. Even with all the tame rides like the Fantasyland dark rides and Autopia, I still enjoyed myself even in my 20s. Bug's Land and Challenge Trail felt like daycares where parents dump their kids to go out. It's as if WDI wasn't even trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55 View Post
    Disney parks aren't compared to carnival quality. They aren't compared to amusement park quality. They shouldn't even be compared to other theme park quality (though other theme parks have surpassed Disney at times). Disney parks should only be compared to themselves. Unfortunately, Disney has let their quality suffer to the point where Disney now has a "worst" park, something that they have never had before DCA (and then Studio Tour Paris and HK Disneyland).

    As long as people allow Disney to slip in "a bit cheesy, but in a goofy, fun way", each generation will be getting a poorer experience. Even those who aren't that totally drawn into the extent of quality that Disney has established their heritage on need to suck it up and accept and demand top quality form the company even if it's just for the advantage of future generations.
    Very much agreed. Disney has always been about holding themselves to higher standards. Dropping the bar even a centimeter is unacceptable and only leads to a farther decline in quality.



  12. #57

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    I wouldn't call him a sell out.

    But I don't necessarily agree with the stuff he's brought to the parks, pixar-wise.

    I love his films, but I like them a lot less the more I am surrounded by this pixar obsession in the parks. The constant merch for these films undermines the storytelling of the movies themselves, and the themeing is not always great on individual attractions or whole lands.

    What I like about him is that he seems to have this magical ability to get stuff DONE, to magnetically pull the dollars his way and achieve his vision for whatever project he is working on. THAT's what makes him good in the parks, because it means he is always bringing some new project.

    I really do not like the idea of a whole land themed to one movie, however. I like my land themed to a wider concept in order to include exciting new things in the future, and to bring together lots of seeming different elements of the Disney canon and Walt's other loves and creations. Think about how many more things could be added to "Carsland" (still a stupid land name) if it were simply themed as the desert... and how easily it could be refreshed and added to and subtracted from in half a generation or so when everybody tires (heh!) of the movie Cars.

    I'm sick of seeing the same movie getting love over and over (Toy Story, ahem, which I love), and more and more elements in the park, when so many great movies aren't represented at ALL. Lasseter doesn't seem to be heading away from that direction, however. The comparison to Lucas may prove to be very perceptive!
    "And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by" (John Masefield)



  13. #58

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Wow, I'm so angry that there was a more general "route 66" workup done and Lasseter nixed the idea. Lands need to be general! I feel pretty certain that Walt himself would have felt that way, because as he said, Disneyland is a work in progress! How can you add new attractions to Carsland that make any sense 20 years from now? You cant! The desert portrayed in Carsland doesn't even look like any desert in California! Grr! Route 66 would have been PERFECT! Maybe in the future Carsland will be re-themed to be route 66 haha!

  14. #59

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenchanter View Post
    Lands need to be general! I feel pretty certain that Walt himself would have felt that way...
    And good thing he did. Otherwise, Frontierland would have been called "Davy Crockett Land" and based solely on Disney's then-hit franchise... and would have faded along with the franchise. As Cars inevitably will, along with the quarter-billion-dollar-plus marketing campaign called "Carsland."
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  15. #60

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    Re: Is John Lasseter a total sell-out?

    He needs to get his hands out of the theme parks...thanks for ruining the Living Seas.

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