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  1. #106

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by lighttragic View Post
    Its funny I tried explaining to my cousins who are teen 17 and thirteen the other day that they are taking away the letters, and they were disappointed they loved the letters. I tried showing them the new concept art but they say the letters are iconic go figure
    .
    The size of the letters does create an iconic image. If "CALIFORNIA" is on it's way out as a part of
    the D(C?)A park name, one would think the suits might consider putting large letters up that spell spmething else.
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  2. #107

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Warrior View Post
    Disney California Adventure: A peek into what the future may hold - latimes.com

    According to the LA Times article contained in the above link that Dustysage pointed out, Golden State and Condor Flats names are to be dropped...and the respective areas cobined under the new moniker, "Yosemite". Although Yosemite is a part of California, it is a national park. The California themed Redwood Challenge Trail is said to possibly be slated to be demolished in favor of an E-ticket ride (a mine train or some othe type of outdoor attraction). Plus, Soaring Over California is rumored to be replaced by Soaring Over the World.

    All of this new information supports my notion that the California theme may well be headed in the direction of Yesterland.
    And How is Grizzly Peak and Condor Flats getting rethemed to Yosemite a fact that DCA's ditching the California theme? Yosemite is an iconic symbol of California! I'm confused on your logic. Please inform me.

  3. #108

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Warrior View Post
    I totally respect the fact that you are willing and committed to vigorously promoting the views that you strongly believe in. I also greatly admire your articulate writing style. I simply disagree with you on this issue.

    If a regionalized theme doesn't make sense anyplace else in the world, I don't perceive one as being beneficial at the Disneyland Resort either. After years of listening to "it doesn't fit the California theme" arguments from different people for one DCA attraction after another, I'm excited about the possibility of the "California" element being eliminated from the park moniker. If it wasn't for the constant call for strict thematic adherence, I suppose I would be much more tolerant of the name. As it stands, I'm hoping to see the door shut and a padlock placed on it.
    I do see what your getting at with the complaints about non-Californian contents. That too just might be a lack of effort in the early days though to make additions fit the theme. Once the park's numbers came back they were quick to add lots of random projects and none of them really fit the locations they ended up in or the park that housed them.

    I wonder though if what was added to any second gate in Anaheim regardless of its original theme would have matched the original park style. I have a feeling that no matter what, the same random assortment of attractions from abroad would have been fit into the second Anaheim gate even if another base theme was chosen and executed the same way.

    No matter what they gave us in 2001, it would have had the same budget, layout and execution flaws as well as the same half-hearted corrections that would have been just as out of place. I guess this is why I lean more toward execution as the primary mistake. If they had made it a SEA park, I have a feeling many would be hating the name of that park just as much as you do DCA.

  4. #109

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    I basically agree with Trevor, I don't think what people say on the internet should be a consideration. The idea that every single attraction has to celebrate some kind of specific thing in California is just silly, and that's not the only way to execute a California theme. If the park had always been the way it's becoming people would have just recognized that these were the "theme rules" for this park. The vision of how the park should be executed has changed and the "rules" should change accordingly. Nonetheless, Ride Warrior, you have no proof that a regional theme is bad or would always fail other then your opinion. I would vastly rather go to Paris to visit a well done Disney Europe Adventure then a Studio park and Japan Adventure could be a pretty cool third gate too.
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
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  5. #110

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Ride Warrior are you going to respond?

  6. #111

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    I do see what your getting at with the complaints about non-Californian contents. That too just might be a lack of effort in the early days though to make additions fit the theme. Once the park's numbers came back they were quick to add lots of random projects and none of them really fit the locations they ended up in or the park that housed them.

    I wonder though if what was added to any second gate in Anaheim regardless of its original theme would have matched the original park style. I have a feeling that no matter what, the same random assortment of attractions from abroad would have been fit into the second Anaheim gate even if another base theme was chosen and executed the same way.

    No matter what they gave us in 2001, it would have had the same budget, layout and execution flaws as well as the same half-hearted corrections that would have been just as out of place. I guess this is why I lean more toward execution as the primary mistake. If they had made it a SEA park, I have a feeling many would be hating the name of that park just as much as you do DCA.
    Again Trevor, I respect the fact that you feel the California theme could have created a thriving popular park had the execution from 2001 forward been of quality...rather than shabby. I must maintain that sometimes it is the overall park names/themes that fail, regardless of how much effort goes into proping them up by investing more money into them. Are you kidding about the Disney Sea comment? A Disney Sea name/theme would have made the park a grand slam hit from day one - especially if most of the cool attractions from Tokyo were included.

    If management in 2001 had been committed enoiugh to come up with an inspiring and with-it name/theme (not necessarily Disney Sea even) fror DCA from the onset, they would likely have put more cohesive thought and investment into into the whole thing. Disney would have had a hit on it's hands, and it would not be going through intensive remake surgery presently.
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  7. #112

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
    I basically agree with Trevor, I don't think what people say on the internet should be a consideration. The idea that every single attraction has to celebrate some kind of specific thing in California is just silly, and that's not the only way to execute a California theme. If the park had always been the way it's becoming people would have just recognized that these were the "theme rules" for this park. The vision of how the park should be executed has changed and the "rules" should change accordingly. Nonetheless, Ride Warrior, you have no proof that a regional theme is bad or would always fail other then your opinion. I would vastly rather go to Paris to visit a well done Disney Europe Adventure then a Studio park and Japan Adventure could be a pretty cool third gate too.
    Well then, it sounds like you would enjoy Disney's Marne-la-Vallée Adventure as a replacement for Walt Disney Studios Paris. The park isn't actually in Paris. So, in the interest of the theme fitting it looks like we could look forward to hundreds of millions visiting Disney's Marne-la-Valle Adventure annually, should the building of it be executed right.

    Since you said the you essentially agree with Trevor, Uncle Bob, then I hope you won't mind my asking you to refer to my response to his last post.
    Last edited by Ride Warrior; 01-03-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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  8. #113

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dlandclub33 View Post
    Ride Warrior are you going to respond?
    Sorry Diandclub. I was temporarily preocupied with New Year's activities. I had planned to responf, but did so quicker at your request. Thanx for urging me forward. You are one cool friend.
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  9. #114

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Warrior View Post
    Again Trevor, I respect the fact that you feel the California theme could have created a thriving popular park had the execution from 2001 forward been of quality...rather than shabby. I must maintain that sometimes it is the overall park names/themes that fail, regardless of how much effort goes into propping them up by investing more money into them. Are you kidding about the Disney Sea comment? A Disney Sea name/theme would have made the park a grand slam hit from day one - especially if most of the cool attractions from Tokyo were included.

    If management in 2001 had been committed enough to come up with an inspiring and with-it name/theme (not necessarily Disney Sea even) [] DCA from the onset, they would likely have put more cohesive thought and investment into into the whole thing. Disney would have had a hit on it's hands, and it would not be going through intensive remake surgery presently.
    I think I see what your saying now. When you say "sometimes it is the overall park names/themes that fail", your saying that DCA as a park has so much negative perception in the public eye that it has joined Windows Vista in the failure category regardless of how much it improves and is invested in. I can't really agree with you there though because it would be far more expensive to rename, rebuild and re-theme the whole park to another theme instead of making it fit the one it got originally. I have also wished to point out in my previous posts that the California theme is vast and impressive enough to create a great theme park around. We don't need to jump back to that though because we've covered it extensively.

    My whole point about the DisneySea comment was that if it had been built in California instead of DCA, it would have been just as cheap a version as DCA 1.0 was. It wouldn't have had "most of the cool attractions from Tokyo" because those were expensive, and the famous theming from Tokyo would also be missing as it would have been an unjustified expense. I wanted to highlight how the name and basic theme mean nothing compared to the quality level at which the park is built. You could have a great DisneySea, or a terrible DisneySea... a great DCA, or a terrible DCA. To extend that point, anything that was built in Anaheim in 2001 was going to be a cheap version of what it could have been. That doesn't mean that out of bad luck, that theme should be tossed to the wind as unfeasible and forgotten. This is why I have been arguing for days that Quality is more important than the chosen theme. You can have just an ok theme that is done to an amazing quality and therefore becomes an amazing park, but even the most amazing theme done very poorly will give you a very poor park. Fortunately, I think California is much better than "just ok", so DCA has great potential.

    We're going to get a great second gate in the Disneyland Resort once it develops and it will be done at the least expense to Disney which most likely means keeping the same name and theme.

  10. #115

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    I think I see what your saying now. When you say "sometimes it is the overall park names/themes that fail", your saying that DCA as a park has so much negative perception in the public eye that it has joined Windows Vista in the failure category regardless of how much it improves and is invested in. I can't really agree with you there though because it would be far more expensive to rename, rebuild and re-theme the whole park to another theme instead of making it fit the one it got originally. I have also wished to point out in my previous posts that the California theme is vast and impressive enough to create a great theme park around. We don't need to jump back to that though because we've covered it extensively.

    My whole point about the DisneySea comment was that if it had been built in California instead of DCA, it would have been just as cheap a version as DCA 1.0 was. It wouldn't have had "most of the cool attractions from Tokyo" because those were expensive, and the famous theming from Tokyo would also be missing as it would have been an unjustified expense. I wanted to highlight how the name and basic theme mean nothing compared to the quality level at which the park is built. You could have a great DisneySea, or a terrible DisneySea... a great DCA, or a terrible DCA. To extend that point, anything that was built in Anaheim in 2001 was going to be a cheap version of what it could have been. That doesn't mean that out of bad luck, that theme should be tossed to the wind as unfeasible and forgotten. This is why I have been arguing for days that Quality is more important than the chosen theme. You can have just an ok theme that is done to an amazing quality and therefore becomes an amazing park, but even the most amazing theme done very poorly will give you a very poor park. Fortunately, I think California is much better than "just ok", so DCA has great potential.

    We're going to get a great second gate in the Disneyland Resort once it develops and it will be done at the least expense to Disney which most likely means keeping the same name and theme.
    I've been enjoying the sparring very much Trevor. Even though I disagree with you on this point and that, I do learn a good deal of infrormation from those such as you who are as impassioned as I am about theme parks...especially those bearing the name, "Disney"!

    First off, if Disney had chosen to build a Disney Sea as the second gate, I can pretty much guarantee that it wouldn't have been a cheapo express version. Even dummies like Eisnerd and dePressler knew that high expectations would have come with that theme. Eisner in all likelyhood would have been tarred and feathered...then fired.

    Secondly, theme is just as important as execution. A Little Mermain ride (that had been built by Jay Leno on a $500 budget), and a Yawn Mountain ride built by George Lucas on a $100 million dollar budget would niether one interest me in the least. Execute the latter all that one may want. It's destined to fail.

    Thirdly, Disney is not remaking D(C?)A at it's least budgetary expense. It's investment in Phase I alone is $1.1 billion. By the time it finishes Phase 2 & 3, we will probably be talking over $3 billion.
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  11. #116

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Warrior View Post
    I've been enjoying the sparring very much Trevor. Even though I disagree with you on this point and that, I do learn a good deal of infrormation from those such as you who are as impassioned as I am about theme parks...especially those bearing the name, "Disney"!

    First off, if Disney had chosen to build a Disney Sea as the second gate, I can pretty much guarantee that it wouldn't have been a cheapo express version. Even dummies like Eisnerd and dePressler knew that high expectations would have come with that theme. Eisner in all likelyhood would have been tarred and feathered...then fired.
    Why? Why would the expectations of that theme be any different? Why would it draw different response when complete if it was lackluster? They had x dollars to build a park. That would get them the same distance with any theme.

    DisneySea was not yet open when DCA opened so there was no previous standard, so thats not it. They (DCA and DisneySea) were built at the same time so obviously they didn't worry about comparing the standards while constructing the parks, so that isn't it either. With the failure of EuroDisney, Anahiem's gate two budget was cut, regardless of what the concept art featured.

    Secondly, theme is just as important as execution. A Little Mermain ride (that had been built by Jay Leno on a $500 budget), and a Yawn Mountain ride built by George Lucas on a $100 million dollar budget would niether one interest me in the least. Execute the latter all that one may want. It's destined to fail.
    Kinda... Firstly, budget is no indicator of a good ride so lets eliminate that variable.

    Theme is very important, but consider this. With a flawless execution, there will be lots to see, it will be interesting, and enjoyable. Avatar and Tron are kinda like this in the eyes of many. The story is so-so, but the visuals make them worth seeing and enjoyable. Add a really good story to those and then the experiance becomes much more enjoyable and immersive. However, the other way around works much worse. Start out with a great, specific theme and a very flawed execution and you have a very poor, uninteresting ride. Add in proper execution and suddenly the experiance takes off.

    Basically, if you decide on an amazing theme but it is executed poorly, there is no way to get that amazing theme across. Without any details, cohesiveness, containment or logical design (just a few of the hallmarks of a good execution), your story will suffer no matter what you do. This is where I'm coming from when I say execution is more important.

    Thirdly, Disney is not remaking D(C?)A at it's least budgetary expense. It's investment in Phase I alone is $1.1 billion. By the time it finishes Phase 2 & 3, we will probably be talking over $3 billion.
    Right.. But to demolish and redesign the area for a new theme, it would cost twice that or more to tear it out, redesign it and rebuild it while they lose the capacity benifits that even a half open DCA represents for the time being.

  12. #117

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Why? Why would the expectations of that theme be any different? Why would it draw different response when complete if it was lackluster? They had x dollars to build a park. That would get them the same distance with any theme..
    C'mon. You're asking me to explain the obvious. The concept art for each elaborately themed land of Disney Sea was everywhere at the time Anaheim got DCA . The poor Disneyland CMs were depressed over what we were getting compared to Tokyo. The company never would have risked building a crappy Disney's Disney Sea Adventure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    DisneySea was not yet open when DCA opened so there was no previous standard, so thats not it. They (DCA and DisneySea) were built at the same time so obviously they didn't worry about comparing the standards while constructing the parks, so that isn't it either. With the failure of EuroDisney, Anahiem's gate two budget was cut, regardless of what the concept art featured..
    Again, the Disney Sea websight and all of the news reports had captivated the world's attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Kinda... Firstly, budget is no indicator of a good ride so lets eliminate that variable.

    Theme is very important, but consider this. With a flawless execution, there will be lots to see, it will be interesting, and enjoyable. Avatar and Tron are kinda like this in the eyes of many. The story is so-so, but the visuals make them worth seeing and enjoyable. Add a really good story to those and then the experiance becomes much more enjoyable and immersive. However, the other way around works much worse. Start out with a great, specific theme and a very flawed execution and you have a very poor, uninteresting ride. Add in proper execution and suddenly the experiance takes off.

    Basically, if you decide on an amazing theme but it is executed poorly, there is no way to get that amazing theme across. Without any details, cohesiveness, containment or logical design (just a few of the hallmarks of a good execution), your story will suffer no matter what you do. This is where I'm coming from when I say execution is more important.



    Right.. But to demolish and redesign the area for a new theme, it would cost twice that or more to tear it out, redesign it and rebuild it while they lose the capacity benifits that even a half open DCA represents for the time being.
    Budget, theme and execution are each critical to a parks success. Execute excellently all that you want. Without a doable budget and critically thought out theming, success will be unattainable.
    Last edited by Ride Warrior; 01-03-2011 at 01:30 AM.
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  13. #118

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    That argument makes no sense. They wouldn't do a bad DisneySea but would do a bad DCA even with the same information coming out of Tokyo? Why would the theme of the park change the outrage people would feel when getting something that is substandard?

    Not only that, but the planning for each park happened long before DisneySea's sneak peaks made it to California, let alone when CM's could compare the two. By the time the finishing touches went up it would have been years to late.


    As for your last post, many many things are needed to make a world class park. Your list of three items barely scratches the surface. That being said. Execute poorly and any advances you've made anywhere else are lost. Great story? Poor execution means it won't be communicated. DCA's budget was one of the reasons that the execution was off. Tied together by their nature. Thats how I see it and I'm not alone.
    Last edited by Trevor; 01-03-2011 at 01:38 AM.

  14. #119

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    That argument makes no sense. They wouldn't do a bad DisneySea but would do a bad DCA even with the same information coming out of Tokyo? The planning happend a long time before DisneySea info leaked into California. It would have been to late.
    Yeah. Michael Eisner likely came up with the DCA theme while taking a 5 min. shower. The following day, I can see him having Pressler and a few accountaneers over to his house for a pizza party and brainstorming party on how to throw the park together as quickly as possible using money from a small reserve account.

    Your scenerio above is slightly askew. Who is it that you think desiged Disney Sea? It was WDI in Glendale. The information and concept art for DS was swarming all over the place in Glendale, Anaheim and Orlando. Like I said, one cannot expect to build a successful theme park without committing a large budget and spending quality time planning out the name/theming. To execute alone does not make the pony kick.
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  15. #120

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    Re: Buh-Bye To DCA's CALIFORNIA Sign On Jan 4th. Will We See New Park Name In 2012?

    You underestimate what it took to come up with DCA. Imagineering designed DCA too, but instead of planning ornate fascades and elaborate rides, they were faced with designing something with the small amount of money they were given. I assure you that they wanted to go all out on the California theme, but couldn't. The same would have happened with a DisneySea park. All the willingness in the world to make it amazing, and yet no money to do it.

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