View Poll Results: Where Should Marvel Themed Attractions Be Built?

Voters
258. You may not vote on this poll
  • Disneyland - Building Marvel attractions in Disneyland is fine with me

    13 5.04%
  • DCA - Building Marvel attractions in DCA OK

    25 9.69%
  • 3rd Park - Put Marvel in a 3rd park only

    120 46.51%
  • Anywhere Disney wants to put them

    45 17.44%
  • Nowhere - they don't belong in any Disney park

    55 21.32%
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  1. #151

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Since when is violence not allowed in Disneyland? I don't think Walt got that memo when he created Pirates of the Carribean with all that"lootin",burning cities to the ground, and extorting.

    This whole argument that Marvel is "too violent" for Disneyland is laughable, especially since everyone here has no problem with the violent nature of Pirates, and would clammer at the idea of a Tron Legacy ride in Tomorrowland. I just do not see how Marvel is any more violent than these things.

  2. #152

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    So where does Lincoln fit in?
    To the period represented by Disneyland's Main Street U.S.A., Lincoln is history. An attraction at the Main Street Opera House dedicated to Lincoln's life is entirely appropriate.
    Actually to us today, Lincoln is history, too so I'm not sure where you thought you were going with this argument.

    Further, Lincoln was long dead by the time period in which Main Street is supposed to take place. It would have been impossible to see him standing on stage giving speeches. Nice try, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    If Poppins and Alice can walk around Main Street so can Captain America

    Hopefully the brain trust at Disney will see the illogical reasoning in that viewpoint, and act accordingly.
    I think you should apply this to your first statement.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  3. #153

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by BuenaVista28 View Post
    Since when is violence not allowed in Disneyland? I don't think Walt got that memo when he created Pirates of the Carribean with all that"lootin",burning cities to the ground, and extorting.

    This whole argument that Marvel is "too violent" for Disneyland is laughable, especially since everyone here has no problem with the violent nature of Pirates, and would clammer at the idea of a Tron Legacy ride in Tomorrowland. I just do not see how Marvel is any more violent than these things.
    not to mention the suicidal state of Master Gracey in the lobby of his antebellum mansion.

  4. #154

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by MainStreetJake View Post
    not to mention the suicidal state of Master Gracey in the lobby of his antebellum mansion.
    Exactly. this 'violence' argument is ridiculous.

  5. #155

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by MainStreetJake View Post
    not to mention the suicidal state of Master Gracey in the lobby of his antebellum mansion.
    Or the numerous corpses of the prisoners of the Evil Queen in her dungeon. Imprisoned till they died of starvation and old age.
    Brer Fox about to get eaten by a crocodile.
    Captain Hook in the jaws of another crocodile.
    The Lost Expedition on Matterhorn. Nothing specific, but implied that Harold has gotten them.
    How about turning little boys into donkeys and selling them into slavery in the salt mines.

    Violence pervades Disneyland, real and implied. It's used as part of the stories that are being told to create emotions towards characters or settings.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  6. #156

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Or the numerous corpses of the prisoners of the Evil Queen in her dungeon. Imprisoned till they died of starvation and old age.
    Brer Fox about to get eaten by a crocodile.
    Captain Hook in the jaws of another crocodile.
    The Lost Expedition on Matterhorn. Nothing specific, but implied that Harold has gotten them.
    How about turning little boys into donkeys and selling them into slavery in the salt mines.

    Violence pervades Disneyland, real and implied. It's used as part of the stories that are being told to create emotions towards characters or settings.
    aligator, actually (in splash, because its the south. Crocs aren't in south america. Thank you jeff corwin and steve irwin.). Figured I'd nicely let you know before it's off with your head by the queens without hearts.

  7. #157

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by MainStreetJake View Post
    aligator, actually (in splash, because its the south. Crocs aren't in south america. Thank you jeff corwin and steve irwin.). Figured I'd nicely let you know before it's off with your head by the queens without hearts.
    Lol... indeed. Thanks for that. I've always had issues with crocs and gators. I couldn't keep them straight if my life depended on it.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  8. #158

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    I agree with you about Buzz (still enjoy riding it though). It does not fit into Tomorrowland appropriately at all. For an example of what fits appropriately, Indy and Star Tours are as far as you need to look. From where we are, Star Wars is incredibly futuristic. Indy is the very definition of Adventureland.

    To fit appropriately one would need to look at the purpose of the land and find stories that match that purpose. Indy was often looking for things in jungles, setting a new adventure of his into a jungle fits appropriately.
    G-d bless you, you get it! I think it's significant that the only Marvel idea no one seems to mind is the Stark Expo, which was explicitly based on the 1964 World's Fair. Unfortunately, too many people seem to think that fitting appropriately means Handwaving (click for definition) some explanation as to why X character fits in Y land.
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  9. #159

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by MainStreetJake View Post
    It's all about Ideals and Dreams. Not reality and full blown logic. Sure, there has to be some logic for things, but what I'm trying to say is that things don't have to be real. Dreams are never real. So if Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals and dreams, why not make them just that?
    Ideals are perfect concept and at no point is it implied that the dreams are literal, stream of conscious dreams. The dreams in question are thought out aspirations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MainStreetJake View Post
    The more I read through this site, the more I'm becoming disheartened by the fan base. People take things far too literally with what the Park is, and what goes on. We are all fans of this wonderful place, and yet some choose to complain about anything and everything the company decides to do. I realized this last night walking back to my car. the big time fans on here aren't fun to talk to about the parks anymore. It's always a complaint about how Murphy didn't show up on time, or Alice needs the OSHA standard safety rails. You know, there is SOME merit to that chat, but when it consumes entire thread boards with negative chat, it really takes away a lot of what the park is, and that's nothing but pure magic.
    And what is ultimately the heart of most of these complaints? That Disney is no longer doing creative, innovative work that is worthy of praise. It is not some bizarre need to complain, it is a dissatisfaction that for many is clearly articulated. People take Disneyland literally because Disneyland took itself literally. We get it, you think Disneyland is a silly distraction that is enjoyable, so be it, but it is not how Disneyland historically viewed itself. It was just as you quoted, something serious intended to be a source of "inspiration to all the world." Those are not the words one speaks when dedicated a place that is intended to just be basic silly fun, that is totally devoid of meaning besides childhood nostalgia.

    But if Disneyland was so silly and lacking in seriousness, why does it continue to generate so much discussion? Why has its cultural status not be replicated by other amusement and theme parks, even when they do outstanding work? Why do we see thread about people who do not like being mocked for their fondness of Disneyland when National Geographic once humorously pondered about the possibility of there one day being a Disneyland for children?

    You think you have it all figured out, that Disneyland is nothing serious, but have you ever really sat down, asked and examined why it is taken seriously? Why it was taken so seriously? Is it just as ridiculous for people to study, examine and try to understand music? To study sculpture? Cinema? Painting? Architecture? Then why must themed entertainment be dismissed as nothingness?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuenaVista28 View Post
    Since when is violence not allowed in Disneyland? I don't think Walt got that memo when he created Pirates of the Carribean with all that"lootin",burning cities to the ground, and extorting.

    This whole argument that Marvel is "too violent" for Disneyland is laughable, especially since everyone here has no problem with the violent nature of Pirates, and would clammer at the idea of a Tron Legacy ride in Tomorrowland. I just do not see how Marvel is any more violent than these things.
    Who keeps pushing this violence argument?

  10. #160

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustysage View Post
    With just about 150 votes, the poll is currently about 25% OK with Marvel at Disneyland and 75% against it.

    Based upon this poll, Disneyland would be risking too much by putting Marvel in Disneyland itself.

    These are the sorts of things that Disney planners need to keep in mind. Just because you "Can" do something doesn't mean you "Should" do it.

    It is pretty clear that the Disney park guests want to see the Marvel characters in a more appropriate space than Walt's original Magic Kingdom of Disneyland.
    Not exactly... MiceChat is only a small fraction of the entire population that visits Disneyland, so it isn't logical to assume that a single poll from a single slice of the guests represents the opinions of the majority. Believe it or not, Disney doesn't cater to only MiceChat and what MiceChat wants... just sayin'.

  11. #161

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    My vote is that Marvel does not belong in Disneyland OR DCA. Everyone raises a valid point of the presence of Star Tours and Indiana Jones in the park, but I just feel that a connection to Iron Man in Tomorrowland, by far the most appropriate Marvel title I can think of existing within the current boundaries of Disneyland, IS a very bleak vision of the future. Iron Man has a super suit, albeit futuristic, that he uses to save the world from murderous villains like the Iron Monger and Whiplash.

    What is futuristic and optimistic about that? We are going to join Iron Man in his weaponized war suit to help save the world from terrible enemies? It's a problem uniquely side-stepped by Star Tours, because the theme is a tour company shuttling people to new planets at light speed and in state-of-the-art ships. But guess what? I don't really think Star Tours belongs in Tomorrowland either, but at least it is tied to a revolutionary film franchise that is known the world over! Furthermore, your encounter with the Empire, although unnecessary is an expected scenario in the Star Wars universe! I don't need to see Gwyneth Paltrow in Walt's Disneyland.

    Iron Man excelled in the worldwide box office, but what in the world did Jon Favreau do that was revolutionary? His film nowhere near matched the sheer amazing experience we got from Nolan in The Dark Knight. I'm sorry but the solution isn't "They added a movie title before, so this one will work too." No. Iron Man involves realities that I don't want in a Disney park like using technology for warfare. That IS a violent reality that, in my opinion, is vastly different from marauding pirates, a cursed temple, and a haunted house with a macabre back story.
    "You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try." ~ Homer Simpson

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  12. #162

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    And what is ultimately the heart of most of these complaints? That Disney is no longer doing creative, innovative work that is worthy of praise. It is not some bizarre need to complain, it is a dissatisfaction that for many is clearly articulated. People take Disneyland literally because Disneyland took itself literally. We get it, you think Disneyland is a silly distraction that is enjoyable, so be it, but it is not how Disneyland historically viewed itself. It was just as you quoted, something serious intended to be a source of "inspiration to all the world." Those are not the words one speaks when dedicated a place that is intended to just be basic silly fun, that is totally devoid of meaning besides childhood nostalgia.

    But if Disneyland was so silly and lacking in seriousness, why does it continue to generate so much discussion? Why has its cultural status not be replicated by other amusement and theme parks, even when they do outstanding work? Why do we see thread about people who do not like being mocked for their fondness of Disneyland when National Geographic once humorously pondered about the possibility of there one day being a Disneyland for children?

    You think you have it all figured out, that Disneyland is nothing serious, but have you ever really sat down, asked and examined why it is taken seriously? Why it was taken so seriously? Is it just as ridiculous for people to study, examine and try to understand music? To study sculpture? Cinema? Painting? Architecture? Then why must themed entertainment be dismissed as nothingness?
    Bingo of the year! Very well said.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  13. #163

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Seriously guys, there are OVER 5,000 Marvel characters. The universe is huge and vast beyond comprehension. It is not all Iron Man and Spider Man, etc. There are so many it is mind boggling.

    MainStreetJake was not saying in any way shape or form that Disneyland is a silly distraction. He was saying that it is fantastical. Big difference. Huge difference. Main Street USA is not a literal Main Street from that time period at all. It's an idealized Main Street, a dream, a fantasy. Adventureland isn't much like what the real world jungles are like at all. Again, idealized, fantastical. Same with every land. They take the real world and reduce them down to the core emotional connections we have to those lands and then build back up on top of that. They pare out all the negative aspects of these places (the poop, power lines, dirt, etc from Main Street. The cholera, bugs, sweat and smells of Adventureland, etc) and leave only the positive aspects that we all associate with them. In this way, Disneyland is the ultimate dream, the ultimate flight of fancy.

    Complaining in and of itself is not bad, nor is it wrong. It's when assumptions are treated as facts and complaints based off those that it becomes troublesome. And that is a valid point. People absolutely have the right to complain and not like things, but it helps to take a step back and look at the facts before reacting emotionally to something. "Am I get worked up for no reason" is something I often have to ask myself. "Do I know and understand the complete picture?" is another I often ask myself when I'm getting worked up. It really helps to take a step back and examine a situation from several angles before just outright dismissing it. Even if you still disagree with it in the end, you at least have a more reasoned dislike for it. Knee-jerk complaints aren't very constructive usually. Constructive complaining often times looks more like concern and worry coupled with hope rather than outright dismissal.

    As to Disneyland's not being replicated, I would posit that it is precisely because it is fantastical that no one has been able to replicate it. The other parks all take themselves far too seriously. They are unwilling to make that last, crazy leap into the realm of the truly fantastic. They're afraid. They won't believe, and for that reason, they will never fly with Peter Pan to Neverland. Walt loved the story of Peter Pan. Walt is the real life boy who never grew up. Disneyland was his plaything, his sandbox where he could build castles and moats and drive trucks and trains and monorails, even submarines. To say that Disneyland is not silly and playful and dreamlike is to miss the very core purpose of Disneyland. But, as Jake talked about, every single dream has elements of reality within it or it is simply nonsensical. Thematic elements at Disneyland are based in reality, though they are idealized, as dreams so often are.

    Disneyland is taken seriously because it is a place that people do not have to be serious. It is the place where any adult is encouraged to let go of that seriousness that is trained into us by society, to be the kid again. To run through the front yard with a paper airplane, pretending that it is the mightiest starship in the Quilaxian Armada, making its way through the void between stars on a mission to deliver Her Royal Highness to the neighboring star system for her marriage. But space pirates attack and take her captive and it's up to you to save her. That is exactly what Disneyland is. You get to FLY OVER LONDON! In a pirate ship! You get to travel through a haunted wood, or into a ghost infested mansion. You can sail the Spanish Main with the most fearsome cutthroat crew, or spend a day playing pranks of Brer Bear with Brer Rabbit. You can ride a sternwheeler up the river and see Indians and a fort, or even get stuck on a runaway train!

    If you're taking Disneyland seriously, then mate, you missed the entire point Walt was trying to make. Don't grow up. Be a kid. See the world through those young eyes, awestruck and full of wonder and dreams so big you can't contain them. Sometimes we lose sight of that here. We could do with a bit of fun and silliness. Peter would be ashamed of us.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  14. #164

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Mycroft, that was the best response I've seen on here in a LONG, LONG time. Thank you for that.

    This is absolutely the truth, regardless of how any of us feel. Walt's vision was a place where we could go explore and be kids again. Taking it so seriously that we lose sight of that is a huge problem. We need to put on those rose colored glasses of nostalgia and really look at the parks and what they are and what they can become, as kids. Not everything is going to fit themes exactly to a T, but Marvel has over 5,000 different characters that can be used in different ways that would fit into different places in the parks. I'm not saying we need to have Captain America and Mickey Mouse hanging out in NOS or anything like that, but some characters could absolutely fit the theming of the parks.

    Walt always say that Disneyland will never be completed as long as their is imagination left in the world. And this whole debate about whether or not the characters can or should be in the parks to me should be looked at like this: If they can imagine it, in a way that it works, then it's something I would love to see. If not, move along. No harm, no foul. And you know, I don't hear kids crying or being outraged over Nemo being in Tomorrowland or Buzz and his rag tag group of rebels either. And it's all because they're lost in the magic and the wonder of the park and the rides. That's how it should be. We shouldn't be damning things that may or may not happen, we should embrace them and say "what if?" or "what could it be if it's done?"
    "Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."
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  15. #165

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    Re: The Gospel of Marvel from the Book of Al Lutz - Save Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Sorry I'm late to the party. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the poll is fundamentally flawed in that it is forcing a choice between either 100% ok, or 100% not ok. This is a false dichotomy. You are either for it or against it.

    There should be one more choice in the poll, "Disney could build them where they fit appropriately." This means it is conditionally ok. And in all honesty, this is almost certainly what Disney will do. It's what they did with Indiana Jones and the Temple of the Forbidden Eye and Star Tours. They took outside characters and placed them into Disneyland in a way that fit perfectly the theme of the lands they were put into. If we are totally honest with ourselves, were they talking, today, about putting Indy or Star Wars into Disneyland for the first time, we'd be having this same reaction. "NO! They are not Disney, they don't belong." Yet look, they are two of the most popular attractions today. To the point that one of them can't even be shut down for a desperately needed refurb and the other is getting a complete reboot after many years of successful running.
    The survey in this thread might be slightly flawed, but when Disney does their "Marketing Surveys" as Guests leave the parks those surveys are just as flawed in the other direction - and I've pointed it out to the survey takers and walked away... The surveys aren't looking for real insight and constructive feedback, they just are a manager or low-level executive looking for validation that they are already right so they can get their bonus.

    "So, when did you stop beating your wife?" is in the same vein.

    They ask you "Should we put this in Adventureland or Frontierland?" But if you are paying attention to how they worded the question, they never offer you the question "Should we do it at all? or offer the answer choices of "No" or "None of the Above." They ask you how satisfied you were, but there's no interrogatory to really find out why you weren't if you weren't.

    And I have seen first-hand (surreptitiously over their shoulder) when the last question on the Survey was "What kind of admission ticket did you use today?" - If you bought any sort of a single or multi day ticket they selected it from a list on their tablet and hit SAVE, if you answered "Annual Pass" they hit Delete and flushed the survey. They didn't want to know what you think.

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