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  1. #1

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    Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    The DLR occupies the NW corner or Harbor/Katella, the convention center occupies the SW corner and a 3rd gate will occupy the SE corner. The NE corner contains GardenWalk, budget motels, mid-range hotels, the Pumbaa Lot, various strip mall businesses and office buildings.

    Let's Blue Sky out 25+ years to when the DLR will most likely have a 3rd gate and Disney has purchased GardenWalk. My question is how can the NE corner of Harbor/Katella be reworked/realigned to not only maintain the usefulness of what is already there but create a more cohesive DLR experience. This would include improved parking and access, integration with GardenWalk, an easy walkable connection between the current entrances to DL and DCA and the 3rd gate, etc. What could an overall plan look like?

    The GardenWalk , the Firehouse, the HoJo would all stay, the budget hotels are important to both guests and Disney as alternatives to the DLR hotels, but could be moved. With all that in mind...

    What if Disney was able to purchase more of the land east of Harbor, north of Katella, all the way to the freeway and make deals with current motel owners. Disney would help the motels along Harber move to a new "motel courtyard" in the big space north of Pumbaa and east of the HoJo. These motels would have virtually the same access to the parks as they do now. Clementine St would be realigned and expanded to be used as access to the motel courtyard. The Pumbaa Lot/Structure would be built farther to the east right up against the freeway with access from the current N and S bound freeway exits. The area east of Clementine and south of Disney way would remain unchanged (there's a big hotel and residential in this area). Strip mall businesses would be mostly removed, with some stores/fast food places somehow integrated with GardenWalk, perhaps by occupying the land east of GW.

    This would open a corridor from the Esplanade across Harbor then south via GardenWalk to Katella and the 3rd gate. There could be Downtown Disney East, maybe another Disney Hotel, but most importantly, a pedestrian connector from DL/DCA to GardenWalk and the 3rd gate, as well as maintaining a budget motel presence, which is very important to both the DLR and guests.
    Last edited by Mojave; 11-02-2011 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #2

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    well the garden walk could be ripped out to make way for a DisneyQuest type area with a tunnel or a bridge leading to the 3rd gate which in my opinion should be a discovery park similar to Tokyo DisneySea, EPCOT, Animal Kingdom, etc. another hotel could be added in this area as well, possibly with a Disney Animation theme so families with young kids could enjoy it alot

    ---------- Post added 11-02-2011 at 04:07 PM ----------

    i personally look at garden walk as a crappy failed sequel to Downtown Disney

  3. #3

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Before a third gate is built, I seriously hope Disney works on getting Tomorrowland fixed, Frontierland expanded, ToonTown brought up to the true Disney standard, the old Motor Boat Cruise area used for something, Critter Country losing its "dead end", expanding DCA a bit and adding more attractions, and upgrade Paradise Pier Hotel. If all of those are not rectified within 25+ years, I see no reason to spend gobs of money building a third gate.

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacky4Donald View Post
    Before a third gate is built, I seriously hope Disney works on getting Tomorrowland fixed, Frontierland expanded, ToonTown brought up to the true Disney standard, the old Motor Boat Cruise area used for something, Critter Country losing its "dead end", expanding DCA a bit and adding more attractions, and upgrade Paradise Pier Hotel. If all of those are not rectified within 25+ years, I see no reason to spend gobs of money building a third gate.
    Come on, really? I agree that there are a lot of things that have to be done in Disneyland and DCA before any 3rd gate, but that is NOT what I was asking. On top of that, I wasn't even talking about the merits of a 3rd gate. I was asking about the NE corner of Harbor/Katella and what Blue Sky ideas could/should be applied there in the distant future to give the whole resort some cohesion.

    It's like admonishing a first grader who wants to write a story by saying "you have to learn how to spell and have good grammar before you can be creative".

    Seriously, this is why people don't want to post here anymore. People talk about something completely different than what the post is about.

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacky4Donald View Post
    Before a third gate is built, I seriously hope Disney works on getting Tomorrowland fixed, Frontierland expanded, ToonTown brought up to the true Disney standard, the old Motor Boat Cruise area used for something, Critter Country losing its "dead end", expanding DCA a bit and adding more attractions, and upgrade Paradise Pier Hotel. If all of those are not rectified within 25+ years, I see no reason to spend gobs of money building a third gate.
    DL will never be perfect, sounds like you want near perfection before we get a 3rd gate. DL was not perfect when they added DCA and it wont be perfect when they add a 3rd gate. Build the 3rd gate when the demand warrants it, and judging from how packed the parks have been, Id say that demand is coming pretty near.

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    im thinking on the N/E end of harbor/ katella should be a giant themed hotel/ entertainment complex with easy access to DCA... just thought of that right now. like i mentioned earlier it can hold an animation theme, but also other themes for adults on business trips or on an anniversary etc. the hotel could have a private show for hotel guests only that could charge a fee. fine dining could be a possibility. this hotel could be an attraction on its own that families can spend an entire day just at the hotel and other days in the parks. and give it a simple name like "The Walt Disney Hotel"

    yes i know this isnt my finest idea but i was making this up as i typed but as i come up with better, bigger and more ideas, i'll post them... thought?

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    I think if the goal is to create a pedestrian connection from the esplanade to Gardenwalk there are much easier ways to do it. I really don't see how trying to convince all these businesses to move would be at all feasible. I assume the Harbor crossing will be dealt with when they build parking garage at Pumbaa, so that should happen within the next few years. Once that's done it seems most likely that if they did then want to add a connection to Gardenwalk later then it would make the most sense to use this same route over Harbor as the route to Gardenwalk.

    I'm not sure how that route will be laid out, but Al's latest rumors were that a bridge would be built over Harbor. Then I think it makes a lot of sense for that they would create some kind of pedestrian route from where the bridge crosses over Harbor to the north side of Disney Way directly across from Gardenwalk. Not only is Gardenwalk there, but that will also be the future location of the Anaheim Rapid Connection station (hopefully a monorail) that will connect to the train station and the Convention Center. Then if Disney does buy Gardenwalk, they can add a bridge from there to Gardenwalk as well.
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  8. #8

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    Arrow Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    Come on, really? I agree that there are a lot of things that have to be done in Disneyland and DCA before any 3rd gate, but that is NOT what I was asking. On top of that, I wasn't even talking about the merits of a 3rd gate. I was asking about the NE corner of Harbor/Katella and what Blue Sky ideas could/should be applied there in the distant future to give the whole resort some cohesion.

    It's like admonishing a first grader who wants to write a story by saying "you have to learn how to spell and have good grammar before you can be creative".

    Seriously, this is why people don't want to post here anymore. People talk about something completely different than what the post is about.
    In regards to the bold section above, the same could be said about the entire reply. Simply because I do not feel the same way you do about envisioning a third park does not give one the right to talk down or infer that it is people like me who have caused others to either stop posting on MiceChat or leave altogether. That is simply rude and uncalled for. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuenaVista28 View Post
    DL will never be perfect, sounds like you want near perfection before we get a 3rd gate. DL was not perfect when they added DCA and it wont be perfect when they add a 3rd gate. Build the 3rd gate when the demand warrants it, and judging from how packed the parks have been, Id say that demand is coming pretty near.
    I in no way expect Disneyland Resort to ever be "perfect". (How is the word "perfect" defined anyway? That term is typically all up to personal interpretation.)

    The point I was attempting to make is with so much real estate still available "on site", I see no reason fiscally or logically to even begin thinking of a third park. For example, say a person has a house and they decide they want to add a separate cottage or living quarters (third park) due to their family growing (increased attendance). Now let's say their original house (Disneyland/DCA) has one or two rooms that were once used quite a bit as a den or a library but are not used anymore (Motor Boat Cruise pad, etc.). It is not financially or logically sound to build an entirely separate building (third park) when there are still rooms which could be converted for less into usable bedrooms. Now, if we were discussing an expansion of this existing house (Disneyland/DCA), then I'd be all for talking about blue sky ideas. However, we're not. We're talking about an entirely new structure (third park).

    Also, in regards to the above bold section, if Frontierland were to be expanded, ToonTown fixed and have new attractions added, a new attraction added to Motor Boat Cruise pad, etc., those higher numbers of people (demand) would have more places to go, therefore alleviating the swelling traffic on Disneyland's/DCA's pathways.

    I hope I've clarified myself better. Take care!

  9. #9

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    They should purchase the Gardenwalk mall and rename it Uptown Disney. They can just fill it with high-end stores, now that all the money in the world is concentrated in the hands of the rich. They should build the third park south of Katella and east of Harbor, and I would bet it will have a Marvel theme. They need to build a transportation system, like a PeopleMover or similar, to connect the entrances of all 3 parks, both malls and all the Disney-owned hotels. Finally a real-world application for the PeopleMover concept. And by the way, if this site is less popular now, micechat did it to themselves by heavily loading the site down with scripts and ads - the pages now take so long to load in your browser that you give up before you can even scroll down or post a reply.

  10. #10

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    My idea is below. Its not perfect, but is a way to incorporate the future parking structure along with getting guests from Disneyland and Downtown Disney to the 3rd gate along with getting guests from the future parking structure to Disneyland and DCA.


  11. #11

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacky4Donald View Post
    In regards to the bold section above, the same could be said about the entire reply. Simply because I do not feel the same way you do about envisioning a third park does not give one the right to talk down or infer that it is people like me who have caused others to either stop posting on MiceChat or leave altogether. That is simply rude and uncalled for. Period.
    They are completely different issues. I agree with you, as I said in my reply, that Disneyland and DCA need more work before a 3rd park is built. That is your opinion AND that is my opinion. I was not talking down you, I was venting frustration that you simply moved on to a different subject.

    However, you completely ignored the topic of the post, which was about connecting the DLR to a 3rd park, not about the 3rd park, not about the current DLR, not about TL, not about FL, but about the CONNECTOR.

    I posted one analogy, here is another. It's as if I wrote "Disney should create a plan to install more solar panels on building roofs in the future" and you replied "Disney should redo the shops in PP". Yes, I agree they should redo the shops, but that was NOT what I was talking about.

  12. #12

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    I wonder if I have all of those plans I did for this years ago. Time to dig.

  13. #13

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    I would like to thank you for posting this, Mojave - because believe it or not, I was trying to find the proposed location for the third gate for a long time, and nowhere on the internet seemed to be able to tell me exactly where it was. Now I know.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    It seems to me that there are only a couple facilities in-between the current DL/DCA area, and the proposed third gate: an Anaheim Plaza Hotel and Suites, a Castle Inn and Suites, three other minor motels, a restaurant, and GardenWalk.

    To my eyes, out of these, the main issue is GardenWalk - especially the east side of it, which is just scrubby undeveloped area. I agree with others on here that purchasing it and turning it into a Downtown Disney East would be the most savvy move - they can keep most of the businesses there that want to stay there, and attract a slew of others, complete with a remodel of the facilities. I'm thinking mainly a widening and opening up of the corridor: this can become the main path between the current DL/DCA pad and the Third Gate.

    The motels are slightly more complicated. I imagine moving them or otherwise altering them would require a huge investment, and not really be for all that much good. Not sure what to do with them. If, as notlemc suggested, a monorail route was put in along the north and east end of the block, then the inns and motels wouldn't be an issue - simply move guests out of sight of them. And they would actually become more valuable properties, being closer to that brand-new park.

    So I suppose I'm just agreeing with what's already been said: re-purpose GardenWalk, and hide the motels, but don't destroy them.
    "And after a long time or a short time, Ivan and the Wolf came at last to the home of the Firebird..."

  14. #14

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Ahhhhhhh....... Blue-skying the DLR w/ a 3rd gate............ I won't Blue-Sky the 3rd Gate except to assume it's coming (when? who knows - and yes, TL needs some TLC first, but as for the rest? Who knows....), the rest of this will be "master-planning" the future of the existing DLR and it's connections to the future 3rd Gate.

    Unfortunately, I believe the NE corner of Katella/Harbor is NEVER going to be in Disney's hands - otherwise they should have pushed the mountains for RSR further to the SE. Additionally, it is my understanding that the 7/11 on the corner of Katella/Harbor is one of the highest grossing stores in the U.S........... therefore it is unlikely to ever be for sale at any price, or at least at any price the WDC would ever consider.

    East of Harbor and North of Katella, there's a chance of expansion....... Rumor has it (and you know what little rumors are worth) that some of the local hotels have changed hands over the last 6-7 years, I can't be sure, but a check at the County Assessor's office would do it - Obviously, if TDA was involved, it was with a shell corporation to conceal their identity to make sure the prices of adjacent property wasn't escalated beyond the already jacked up prices the land is currently worth. But it's entirely unclear if all these properties including HoJo, Residence Inn, McDonalds, Mimi's, Tony Roma's, Ramada Maingate, Candycane, Carousel, Tropicana, et al could ever be purchased. Additionally, there is the issue of the Hotel Bed Tax the City of Anaheim receives from these properties..... They'd lose a LOT of tax revenue if these properties were moved/removed. It may not be practical to relocate them to a "courtyard" to the East of Clementine, in fact, there's not enough room to relocate them all over there or basically anywhere else in the Resort District. The other problem is that these properties main selling point is their location across the street from the Esplanade. To move them would be really expensive and would take away their most compelling reason for guests to stay there - it reduces the overall value of the individual properties.

    The Pumba lot North of Gardenwalk will eventually get a huge parking structure - likely much bigger than M&F. What I've never been able to learn is whether Disney also owns the old AMPEX buildings to the direct North of the existing Pumba lot - if so - THAT could be a HUGE parking structure, large enough to accommodate a 3rd gate when Toy Story lot is finally built upon and still supplement DL/DCA parking w/ M&F. The ARTIC regional transport plan is for some sort of trolly/bus/tram line to run up Clementine - likely to an ARTIC station at the NE corner of Clementine and Disney Way and conveniently across the street from Gardenwalk. From there the line will run down Disney Way, turn South on Harbor to the Anaheim Convention Ctr and Hilton/Marriott. But again, the ARTIC station at Clementine/Disney Way can be integrated into the Pumba parking structure with a pedestrian bridge South to connect Pumba to Gardenwalk and thus funnel guests to a 3rd Gate through Gardenwalk much like USH does with Citywalk.........

    Another point in favor of Gardenwalk - It is already zoned for at least 2 additional hotels (which Disney was going to manage, but not own) before the recession hit. These will be placed East of Gardenwalk on either side of the Fire Station on Clementine. If I understand it correctly, there is also infrastructure in place in the existing buildings to support the construction of DVC/Timeshare units on top of parts of the existing Gardenwalk. That would give Disney 5 hotels and 2 DVC developments under their direct control (on a smaller scale than in Orlando) to "control" the "resort experience", keeping guests on property and making the DLR into a true "destination" resort - which is their ultimate goal........... Gardenwalk is fine as it is so long as Disney eventually comes to own it - it's the perfect retail "funnel" to get their guests to the eventual 3rd Gate via a bridge across Katella to the entrance to the 3rd Gate......... I firmly believe it will happen, it's just gonna take a while for TDA to low-ball the present owners.

    Now, the connection of the 3rd Gate via Gardenwalk is the key component of this plan to "connect" the 3rd Gate to the Esplanade. It's really too far from Pumba to the Esplanade to expect guests to walk. But I've wondered that no one ever comments on the easement directly North of Disney Way that leads from Pumba to the old Harbor entrance to the DLR. Yes, it's a right of way for the power lines, but I have to assume Disney has some agreement with the City of Anaheim for ground-level rights to use this space as access from Pumba/Gardenwalk/ARTIC to the Esplanade. Whether they build a bridge or an underpass to get across Harbor is immaterial, the space of this right of way is at least as wide as Disney Way itself. THAT is large enough for two lanes of traffic and a pedestrian walkway (if pedestrians actually choose to walk) from Pumba/Gardenwalk/ARTIC to the Esplanade). I say two lanes of traffic because I believe that due to the cost, we will not see a PM or Monorail from the Esplanade to Pumba - Monorail/PM track is really expensive........ However, they could just use trams like they do from M&F to Downtown Disney - I know many want a Monorail or PM to do this, but trams are just so much cheaper because all you need to do is pave a road/sidewalks and landscape it nicely (maybe fence it in....?). It's cheaper than building track, and it could carry the large number of guests parking at Pumba. So, two lanes of traffic (for the trams) and a pedestrian walkway from Pumba to the Esplanade, lushly landscaped like the West side of Harbor - and maybe even completely fenced off from the public - crossing over or under Harbor at the old Harbor entrance....... If it's fenced off, it keeps guests from Pumba/ARTIC/Gardenwalk (and the two GW Hotels and DVC units "on property"

    Anyway, under this plan, the old Harbor entrance gets curbs and a sidewalk, and the bridge/underpass becomes the "new" Harbor entrance while keeping guests on property from Pumba/ARTIC/GW to the Esplanade. Absent an obscenely major and financially irresponsible investment by Disney to buy out everyone on the East side of Harbor (and the loss of Hotel Bed Tax to the City of Anaheim).

    This is how I think the future of the DLR is going to pan out.

    Thoughts?

  15. #15

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    Re: Help me Blue Sky the area connecting DL/DCA and the 3rd gate

    Loss of tax? If the resort expands, more people come. New, larger hotels would be needed to accommodate these people. One way or another, tax revenue goes up.

    As for the 7-11, it would do just as much business across the street. Disney could offer to pay to relocate/expand/improve it, citing the increase in customers for the location that resort expansion would bring.
    Last edited by Trevor; 11-16-2011 at 04:33 PM.

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