JOLLY HOLIDAY BAKERY NOW OPEN - Pics

[Mac Daddy]

Here's a question: Does anyone have any links to old photos of the Plaza Pavillion interior? I've just spent the last 1/2 hour looking around on the internet and found nothing. There are a BUNCH of shots of the Plaza Inn, but zero for the restaurant on the opposite side of the street. If anyone has posted them recently around here, they didn't show up on google.

Anyone? I'd love to see what the inside looked like back in the 50's/60's or later...anything before it was closed in 1997.

[WorldDisney]

Wow looks nice! Can't wait to see it in person.

[Poisonedapples]

Here's a question: Does anyone have any links to old photos of the Plaza Pavillion interior? I've just spent the last 1/2 hour looking around on the internet and found nothing. There are a BUNCH of shots of the Plaza Inn, but zero for the restaurant on the opposite side of the street. If anyone has posted them recently around here, they didn't show up on google.

Anyone? I'd love to see what the inside looked like back in the 50's/60's or later...anything before it was closed in 1997.

oh i found this! Daveland Disneyland Central Plaza Photos don't know if it helps though!!

[lazyboy97O]

Does the fact that he hates my papasan chair mean he loves our home any less than I do?

No, but why he does would be different.

Hi,
I have enjoyed reading through this entire thread and would like to comment on a few points having just returned from Disneyland a few weeks before the bakery opened.

Lazyboy: I understand that you are not trying to be mean, but I don't agree with your analogy for a few reasons. The main reason is what you said, that disneyland covers so much for so many. Sure a Jeff Bridges fan is different from a Tron fan, but if you are a character fan, than all the more reason to be a Disneyland fan. I enjoy just about every element of Disneyland (minus the food) including characters, rides, themeing, shows, historical references and experiences. I am sure that there are "Disney character fans" who come to disneyland just to address this, but I personally am a Disneyland fan and a fan of the movies. Further I think that your logic could be extended to say that a person who is interested in historical accuracy is not a Disneyland fan but a fan of history who comes to Disneyland to address this hobby. (understand I am not implying that anyone is this as I believe as Walt said in short "Welcome."

But who is interested in historical accuracy? All I see is an interest in themed entertainment, in the story being presented cohesively. Just as a character fan would like the characters to appear as closely as possible to being on model, not like cheap knock offs. Rides being well done. Shows being well done. There is no group looking for historical accuracy.

I've never agreed with a post you've written in this thread more. Well said!

I do think it was you who said that you didn't think that Disney's building patterns nowadays was geared towards families, but to diehards, and then I pointed out Carsland. Someone said that recently Disney has been making too many film tie-ins, which I would assume wouldn't be geared towards the diehards.

Just wondering if you could elaborate on this seeming discrepancy. I would imagine if they were doing more for the diehards that it would be okay to throw a character tie-in.

Glad I could clarify.

I do not think that Disney is moving away from families, but I do think they are clearly incurring extra expense to include elements specifically intended for die-hards and even marketing these elements to us. But I see these items and film tie-ins as serving the same purpose of establishing legitimacy. People say they go to Disney theme parks looking for "Disney." But what is "Disney?" In my view this has, for whatever reasons, come to be defined, only really when speaking of the parks, as "almost anything previously established as associated with the Disney name." So something based on a film is an automatic in. Disney history is an in. Elements derived from previous theme park elements are also in. But new park elements need something "Disney." In the case of The Haunted Mansion interactive queue and Buena Vista Street, the Disney elements are old design concepts and Disney history, elements more aimed at die-hards. At Paradise Pier and Jolly Holiday Bakery they are character decorations, the latter being either subtle or clear depending on whom you ask. Instead of Carland we get Cars Land, which is admittedly also a good bit of the old synergy/marketing model.

I think "purism" still offers a lot for everybody. Attention to detail offers new die-hards something new to notice and learn about. When the right story comes along, existing characters and stories are there for people to meet and experience, some known (film tie-in) and others new. Great atmosphere could still be created. There could still be good food. Technology can still be utilized. It can still be family friendly. The only people who lose are those you think all of the fakery is stupid, the audience to which the original Disney's California Adventure was aimed, and frankly I am just fine with alienating them.

[bespinally]

But who is interested in historical accuracy? All I see is an interest in themed entertainment, in the story being presented cohesively. Just as a character fan would like the characters to appear as closely as possible to being on model, not like cheap knock offs. Rides being well done. Shows being well done. There is no group looking for historical accuracy.

The point still remains that whether youre referring to historical accuracy or themed entertainment, youre logic applies to your interests just as much as it applies to another who may be interested in characters.

I mean lets extend your analogy, so the guy is not a tron fan but he is a fan of jeff bridges, but it would be silly to say that he is not a fan of the Jeff Bridges box set (if such a thing existed). Disneyland is like a Jeff Bridges box set, some people will say that classics like King Kong and Tron were the best, and some will say that True Grit or The Fabulous Baker Boys are his best. Me personally I prefer the Trons and the Big Lebowski. But if you are a fan of the box set, then you may like some movies but not the others, some might be downright bad movies.

Personally I think that being a fan, collector, or whatever form it takes is a personal choice and ultimately its different than tron vs Jeff Bridges. I am on this website because of an emotional connection that I created when I visited Disneyland and WDW as a child with my father, I have extended that to my kids. I look at a lot of details, and I agree pretty much with the strictest interpretation of theming and quality, however I choose to acknowledge them, and realize the reality of the world I live in today.

It is unfortunate that the idealism of Walt Disney is gone from corporate decision making. There is a reality (ala TDR) where people can make more money by making the right decisions and paying close attention to detail. But the world is such where the bottom line makes all decisions. This is wrong approach from an artistic perspective absolutely, but it is the approach that dictates corporate thinking. Their thought is to compromise to the "golden mean" like what is the most we can do while spending the least and maximizing interest and profit. For me to fight this would mean that I cant enjoy disneyland at all, because it is full of compromises of the sensibilities of quality. (perfect example why cant you get a cup of Fresh Orange juice in Orange county theme park, or in Florida).

In other words I analyze the wrong and right, I enjoy the discussion, and I don't spend much thought on it other than a intellectual recognition of the waning of ideals in our society overall. Unfortunately Disneyland is not immune to the models which dominate todays business world.

So as a fan of Disneyland, I recognize the theming (story) flaws, but I don't care in this case....it doesn't even pique the meter for me. Now dont get me started on BLAB or innoventions.

Please reply.

[nonob88]

What happened to the talk about foodand bakery's opening and soup?

Yeah, its the food that really matters! Here's a great photo review of the pastries and lunch entrees:

Dining in Disneyland: FIRST LOOK! The Jolly Holiday Bakery | the disney food blog

[bespinally]

Not only is Disney not immune, in many cases they innovated the method of "bean counting."

And just to be clear I fully support the vocal minorities which espouse their opinions for others to mull and respond. Knowledge is king, and unity is king too, so in some cases we can make a difference when we agree. I think that this point regarding the themeing of this bakery is somewhat marginal to many fans thus the pages of differing opinions. But by all means vocalize opinions because its fun.

Further I dont agree with those who keep saying things like....lets get over it or lets just talk about the food. The conversation will take its own course, and I think its great when people get this excited about a topic.

[WED]

There's a lot of good discussion here. I find it interesting.

Pity certain people on one side cherry-pick which posts there respond to and completely ignore valid points made in opposition. Oh well.

[Mac Daddy]

oh i found this! Daveland Disneyland Central Plaza Photos don't know if it helps though!!

Thanks Poisonedapples! Thats's one of the first links I found,but I was disappointed that Daveland didn't seem to have any shots of the interior. Still looking....

[lazyboy97O]

The point still remains that whether youre referring to historical accuracy or themed entertainment, youre logic applies to your interests just as much as it applies to another who may be interested in characters.

I mean lets extend your analogy, so the guy is not a tron fan but he is a fan of jeff bridges, but it would be silly to say that he is not a fan of the Jeff Bridges box set (if such a thing existed). Disneyland is like a Jeff Bridges box set, some people will say that classics like King Kong and Tron were the best, and some will say that True Grit or The Fabulous Baker Boys are his best. Me personally I prefer the Trons and the Big Lebowski. But if you are a fan of the box set, then you may like some movies but not the others, some might be downright bad movies.

Personally I think that being a fan, collector, or whatever form it takes is a personal choice and ultimately its different than tron vs Jeff Bridges. I am on this website because of an emotional connection that I created when I visited Disneyland and WDW as a child with my father, I have extended that to my kids. I look at a lot of details, and I agree pretty much with the strictest interpretation of theming and quality, however I choose to acknowledge them, and realize the reality of the world I live in today.

I do not think that is a proper extension of the analogy as the Jeff Bridges collector set includes the common element of Jeff Bridges. The better analogy would be a TRON box set which features Jeff Bridges (for Jeff Bridges fans), TRON (for TRON fans), is Disney (for Disney fans), and sci-fi (for the sci-fi fans). A third film without Jeff Bridges would not appeal to the Jeff Bridges fans. A third fan that was sold off to another studio would not appeal to the Disney fans. No big connection to the previous films would not appeal to the TRON fans. No going into the computer or high tech fantasy would not appeal to the sci-fi fans. None are wrong or less, but there is a means of maintaining the elements that all of these diverse fans enjoy.

It is unfortunate that the idealism of Walt Disney is gone from corporate decision making. There is a reality (ala TDR) where people can make more money by making the right decisions and paying close attention to detail. But the world is such where the bottom line makes all decisions. This is wrong approach from an artistic perspective absolutely, but it is the approach that dictates corporate thinking. Their thought is to compromise to the "golden mean" like what is the most we can do while spending the least and maximizing interest and profit. For me to fight this would mean that I cant enjoy disneyland at all, because it is full of compromises of the sensibilities of quality. (perfect example why cant you get a cup of Fresh Orange juice in Orange county theme park, or in Florida).

Except that this is not at all what is happening. As others have said, there is no merchandizing component to this bakery. Extra expense was incurred to design (and Imagineering is notorious in the industry for costing more than other design groups) and manufacture these new elements. This is not a case of utilizing an intellectual property to generate interest and maximize profit, it is an extra expense incurred for the purpose of making the bakery "Disney."

There's a lot of good discussion here. I find it interesting.

Pity certain people on one side cherry-pick which posts there respond to and completely ignore valid points made in opposition. Oh well.

Which points do you think are being [deliberately] ignored?

[napeterson18]

Just wanted to point out that I think this is the first time when discussing this topic where I feel like a lot of the animosity has dissipated. Cool.

[Broadway Guru]

I don't know if, after 15 pages of posts, I can add anything to this discussion, but let me try anyway.

This whole debate turns on one thing: the nature of theming. Over the last year, I've realized the there are two irreconcilable schools of thought on what theming is and what purpose it is intended to serve. More and more I believe it's a generation gap between the young'uns and those whose memories extend beyond the Pre$$ler years.

The older generation wants to believe in the lands as actual places. This is how the Park was originally designed and intended. Main Street was not meant to "represent" a small American town; it was meant to be a small American town, albeit idealized. Frontierland, similarly, was a complete environment where each attraction and shop contributed to the illusion of being in the mythical "Old West." In this line of thinking, the JHB is undesirable because having Mary Poppins iconography breaks the illusion of being in a small Midwestern town ca. 1905.

To the younger set, "theme" means "a group of rides w/ something in common." The lands do not represent actual places, but simply a way to tie those rides together. This type of theming is exemplified in Fiesta Village at Knott's Berry Farm. At its heart, FV is nothing more than a collection of carnival rides and a gaming arcade. By housing the attractions within Spanish style buildings and painting scenes from Spanish California on them, FV is given a sense of being more than just a "kiddie carnival land." No attempt is made to convince the visitor that he is actually in that era of history. It's purely an aesthetic affectation. Those who accept this definition of theming accept the JGB because they in turn reject the illusion of being in a specific place and time.

BTW, thanks to whoever invented the term "Disneyland Historic Preservation Society." I know you meant it satirically, but I'm reclaiming it.

[napeterson18]

^Nah, I don't think there's a generation gap. There's two camps for sure, but they extend across all ages.

I'm a junior in college, and yet my favorite part of Disneyland is my ability to escape into different lands and the rich, gorgeous theming with high attention to detail.

To each his own.

[Malina]

Notice that none of the attractions you mentioned are part of Main Street...---------- Post added 01-06-2012 at 03:01 PM ----------

As a charter member of the Disneyland Historical Appreciation Society I can say that nothing on Main Street were tied to existing properties.

Yes, but that's neither here nor there. One of the overarching points that seems to keep coming up with opposition to the JHB is that it represents a shameless cash grab/promotion of a Disney property. There also seems to be the recurring theme that Walt's original park didn't promote the characters/films/etc. as much as the current Disneyland management does. The point I was trying to make there is that when a majority of opening day attractions had a tie-in or product placement, the park has been about characters/films since Day One. I was trying to say that I didn't understand why the point was one of contention, with that history...ah, the many mysteries of Disney and Disney fans.

[calsig31]

Yes, but that's neither here nor there. One of the overarching points that seems to keep coming up with opposition to the JHB is that it represents a shameless cash grab/promotion of a Disney property. There also seems to be the recurring theme that Walt's original park didn't promote the characters/films/etc. as much as the current Disneyland management does. The point I was trying to make there is that when a majority of opening day attractions had a tie-in or product placement, the park has been about characters/films since Day One. I was trying to say that I didn't understand why the point was one of contention, with that history...ah, the many mysteries of Disney and Disney fans.

I'll say it again: No one is arguing that there were not movie tie-ins since the beginning. They have always been there and rightly they should. However, there used to be a nice balance between movie tie-ins and original attractions. Sadly, that balance is now gone and every new thing at Disney has to be some way to promote their movies.

With the Poppins Bakery, however, it's nt so much the brand marketing that has people up in arms, but the fact that some of us see it as breaking theme just to squeeze in another character representation. If this was more in-theme, I don't think this would be as much of a hot button issue.