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  1. #46

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    It's not just the newness of the technology, it's how the technology is applied (or in the case of Pirates of the Bruckheimer and the Finding Nemo Underwater Kiddie Cartoon Video, mis-applied).

    Imagineering isn't just hot new hardware, it's theater and showmanship -- qualities that have declined at Disney for the last two decades.
    I agree that cutting-edge technology is not the be-all and end-all of theme parks. I was responding to someone who said that Disney has not innovated since 1995, which, to me, is plainly false.

    In some cases, I agree that theatricality and showmanship have suffered. In other cases, I disagree. The company's recent theme park offerings have been inconsistent -- sometimes great, sometimes good, sometimes just bad. I believe that they have the resources to be more consistent, at the very least by not handicapping the Imagineers with arbitrary budget cuts.

    But inconsistency does not equal lousy. It does mean we get a mixed bag. Can the company do better? Yes. But does that mean the parks now suck? Hardly.
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 03-03-2012 at 12:55 PM.

  2. #47

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by simba View Post
    You say Disneyland stagnates, but as soon as they move one blade of grass, people are up in arms about the dangerous changes that are destroying the classic Disney. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either they innovate and change or preserve the history. Which is it?
    This is not an either/or situation. And it's not reserving the history that everyone is necessarily concerned with.

    Quote Originally Posted by simba View Post
    People have mystified Walt's Disneyland into an image of magical perfection, because it's seen through a colored lens of nostalgia, stories, and photographs rather than unbiased memories. There was a lot wrong with Disneyland in 1955 right on up through Walt's death. People just choose to sweep it under the rug because it's more elegant that way.
    If you equate quality with nostalgia, then it will be easy to accept the park's deterioration if nostalgia is considered a negative. If you ignore quality, then even "unbiased memories" are filtered through colored lenses.

    While Walt wasn't perfect and made mistakes, his intent was still to DO BETTER whenever he could. Accepting SO-SO was NEVER one of his attributes. And aiming at SO-SO in order to save money would have never crossed his mind.

  3. #48

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Gross View Post
    It's not an either-or.

    I've articulated this before, so here's the summary version: I'm not opposed to change in principle. I am opposed to bad changes in principle.

    In my world, Disney "magic" is defined as the use of Disney physical property to immerse one in a coherent experience of Disney intellectual property. It's not about upholding to any particular absolute standard of technology or even maintenance. Rather, it's about affecting a comprehensive environment that suspends disbelief and draws you willingly into this imagined landscape (and I say "environment" in contradiction to the cult-like obsession with "story").

    I am good with any changes that deepen this experience, eliminate what John Hench called "visual contradictions", and create this environment. I am against bad changes which distract from it, call attention to themselves, and otherwise place me in a theme park rather than an imagined landscape. For example, I like Constance and the new attic. It was well done, consistent with the rest of the ride both in content and execution, and placed for almost purely creative reasons. I do not like the addition of movie characters to Pirates of the Caribbean. Their content and execution is not only wholly inconsistent with the ride, but even inconsistent with the films and constantly remind me that they are only there because Disney's got some DVDs to sell. I also dislike Pirate's Lair for the same reason. I don't mind Disney characters in It's a Small World but I do mind the awful-looking America section. I also don't mind Jolly Holiday Bakery and don't in-principle mind the new Princess part. I prefer Swiss Family Treehouses to Tarzan Treehouses. Buena Vista St. looks good but I'm nonplussed about the contrived "story" elements. I don't like Pixar movies in general but Carsland looks fantastic. Finding Nemo less so.

    As demonstrated by these examples, not all changes are automatically good. Nor are they automatically bad. Some things are "plussed" simply by being adequately maintained (Enchanted Tiki Room) and some have longstanding problems in need of address (the load area for Haunted Mansion). Some deserve to be maintained just on historical grounds (Enchanted Tiki Room again) and generally I prefer that new things be built without taking away old things.

    Now to weigh in on whether the net amount of "magic" has thinned in Disneyland... Yes and no. Given the choice, I would absolutely prefer the Disneyland of today to the Disneyland of 1955, no question. But Disneyland of today does have its weaknesses. They really need to devise a plan for Tomorrowland that, ideally, filters out the Pixar rides. And they really need to restore Pirates of the Caribbean and Tom Sawyer's Island. And I would love to see a few of the rides of Tokyo migrate over. Nevertheless, I think that Disneyland itself is in a very strong place and DCA is getting there.


    Great points and I agree. It has been inconsistent lately and leans more to the things that contradict what their goal should be.

    I think Midway Mania is a great addition to Paradise Pier and I love Toy Story, but I almost feel that this was an attraction that could have used ANY property and it would have been great. There IS, however, a certain lure about Toy Story that really catches attentions so maybe my thought of using the original Fab Five and have Donald beckon guests in wouldn't have been as successful maybe.

    But regardless of the property, the "disney magic" isn't diminished when I'm experiencing the ride. Only when I stop and think about it later on.


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  4. #49

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    Maybe Universal has innovated more in recent years, and Disney certainly has the resources to do better. But I don't think it's correct to say that Disney "hasn't done anything innovative since Indiana Jones".

    BLAB introduced the concept of an interactive ride/game. MIB in Orlando topped it by using sets and AAs, but the initial innovation came from Disney. TSMM was also innovative, by introducing the world's first 3D/4D interactive ride. By adding interactivity to a 3D ride, it went a step beyond Spider-Man in one sense, even if many would still prefer that classic ride.

    Whereas Universal bought the rights to the Kuka Arm, and made great use of it for Forbidden Journey, I would argue that Disney has been more innovative in ride vehicle development. They were the first to develop a motion simulator built into a ride vehicle (Indy, Dinosaur), trackless vehicles (unfortunately only used in Pooh's Hunny Hunt, as far as I know), and the ride system used for Test Track and the upcoming RSR. Speaking of Cars Land, Luigi's Flying Tires will represent a vast improvement on an old ride technology.

    Disney is also the leader in AA technology: TLM, Lincoln, Mr. Potato Head, Yeti (when he worked) Jack Sparrow, etc. AAs have become increasingly realistic, lifelike, with more elaborate movements, facial expressions and interactivity. Aside from the terrific Imhotep AA in the Mummy ride (which looks like it was designed by former Imagineering guys), Universal really hasn't kept up in the race to create amazing animatronics.

    Projections may be used in a lot of places, but I would argue that Disney does it best, with the greatest variety of experiences, from Constance 2.0 in Orlando's HM, to WOC and Magic, Memories and You.

    TOT represented a quantum leap forward for drop rides (altough it's too bad they cheaped out a little with the DCA version); Splash is still the world's standard for flume rides. I would also argue that the recent Star Tours reboot was very innovative. I've never before experienced a ride that combines 3D with a motion simulator, and multiple, rotating storylines. Have you?

    Finally, whereas Forbidden Journey may represent the current cutting edge of ride technology, anyone who has also ridden Soarin' has to acknowledge that FP owes that earlier wharide a debt. FP does it better, but I couldn't help but be reminded often of the flying effects in Soarin'. One could even argue that there would be no FP (in its present form) if Soarin' had not come first.

    There are many experiences I've had only in a Disney park, although it may have existed elsewhere first. One example is the new HHG in Orlando's Haunted Mansion. I've never before seen a ride effect in which a part of my body appears to be manipulated by a character. That may or may not be a world's first, but it's certainly a first for me.

    I could go on and on with examples, and some would not be 100% innovative. But when a Disney park guest experiences something they've never before seen, does it matter to them whether or not a variation of that experience was presented somewhere else before?
    Yeah you're definitely right here. But what's more attractive to you? An update to a pre-existing attraction and advanced animatronics, or the introduction of actual new experiences? I know Disneyland is short on space but I feel like Disney relies on the stereotype held by those such as yourself (that theyre the best at what they do, which at one point was certainly true) go justify their relatively minor improvements/additions compared to the actual additions going on in the competitors' parks (even Six Flags/Cedar Fair)

  5. #50

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    I think Midway Mania is a great addition to Paradise Pier and I love Toy Story, but I almost feel that this was an attraction that could have used ANY property and it would have been great. There IS, however, a certain lure about Toy Story that really catches attentions so maybe my thought of using the original Fab Five and have Donald beckon guests in wouldn't have been as successful maybe.
    As I said, I'm not a Pixar fan, so it probably would have gained points with me for having used vintage Disney characters. My biggest issue with TSM, however, is the fact that I can literally buy that very same game for the Wii. I think it's one of the worst examples of VR-creep in the parks.

    I tend to find virtual reality elements to be the least convincing of theme park effects because I deliberately go to a theme park to have an emersive experience in real space. A movie is still a movie, even when its in 3D and even when it's projected onto a glass porthole. A video game is still a video game, even when I'm in a moving cart. Now that I can buy a 3D TV and the exact same game for a Wii, the 3D experience has diminished appeal.

    About the only real experience of watching a movie at Disneyland that I seek out is Main St. Cinema because I love early cinema and its mystique. I also think it's a gyp that Carthay Circle doesn't have anything in it. They could have shown Snow White instead of just have some expensive restaurant I can't get into. Both of those I consider to be extenuating circumstances because they actually embody historical interest, whereas TSM is just a game and Finding Nemo is... actually, I don't know what Finding Nemo is supposed to be. Star Tours? I dunno'... could you imagine a Peter Pan's Flight where you were only suspended over a projection of Neverland? In 3D? Barf.

    Anyways, I see a lot of VR-creep in my field as well, being museums and heritage. Exhibit designers seem to be thoughtlessly wasting money on "interactives" because that's the hip thing they're supposed to put in instead of realizing that actual real stuff is 110% more "interactive" than anything on a computer screen. I'm always telling kids that real reality is better than virtual reality. The most interactive museum I've ever been to was the Studio Ghibli Museum, which had no computers or 3D effects or anything like that, but tonnes of nooks and crannies and art pieces and details to explore.

    Uh... sorry... got off on a tangent there...


  6. #51

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Yeah you're definitely right here. But what's more attractive to you? An update to a pre-existing attraction and advanced animatronics, or the introduction of actual new experiences? I know Disneyland is short on space but I feel like Disney relies on the stereotype held by those such as yourself (that theyre the best at what they do, which at one point was certainly true) go justify their relatively minor improvements/additions compared to the actual additions going on in the competitors' parks (even Six Flags/Cedar Fair)
    Let's give credit where credit is due. Currently, the company is in the midst of a construction boom. Between the DCA makeover, the Fantasyland expansion at the MK and the planned Avatar Land at AK, that accounts for three of their six U.S. parks that are enjoying big changes (plus, Star Tours 2.0 just launched at two others).

    I do agree that Disneyland could use a new E ticket -- and Epcot needs a lot of work -- but, as others have pointed out, guests will be less than pleased if they are greeted by construction walls at all the parks at once.

    ---------- Post added 03-04-2012 at 02:05 PM ----------

    (Orlando is getting a parade, water show, golf course, AND new simulator ride all this year!!).
    I'm a fan of Universal parks, but this is not quite as great as it sounds. The new water show is a blatant WOC ripoff, using Universal movies instead of Disney ones. The new simulator replaces an old one. As for the new parade, it's long overdue, since they've been recycling Macy's floats for years.
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 03-04-2012 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #52

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    Let's give credit where credit is due. Currently, the company is in the midst of a construction boom. Between the DCA makeover, the Fantasyland expansion at the MK and the planned Avatar Land at AK, that accounts for three of their six U.S. parks that are enjoying big changes (plus, Star Tours 2.0 just launched at two others).

    I do agree that Disneyland could use a new E ticket -- and Epcot needs a lot of work -- but, as others have pointed out, guests will be less than pleased if they are greeted by construction walls at all the parks at once.

    ---------- Post added 03-04-2012 at 02:05 PM ----------



    I'm a fan of Universal parks, but this is not quite as great as it sounds. The new water show is a blatant WOC ripoff, using Universal movies instead of Disney ones. The new simulator replaces an old one. As for the new parade, it's long overdue, since they've been recycling Macy's floats for years.
    Yeah but that's no different than DCA ripping Universal off for Hollywood Pictures Backlot (or Hollywood Studios Park for that matter). Sometimes you've got to 'cheat' to get ahead I'm the game. And had Disney wanted to, they could've installed an east coast WOC a while ago but didn't, so the watershow will be unique to Orlando and that's all that counts. The Despicable Me replacement is just like the Star Tours replacement--except Star Tours was the first 'new' thing in a while whereas Despicable Me is among huge recent additions at Universal in this year and the last.

    Either way, Universal is upping their game while Disney is not--DCA needed a makeover because it's current state was hurting attendance so thats a special case, but it takes a great company to be improving while they're already ahead (like Disney used to do, when in 1959 they opened 4 E-tickets simultaneously). That's where they've been losing magic, IMO.

    And lastly, an addition doesn't have to mean construction walls everywhere. Avatar land will be very much out of the way of the regular AK layout. So are most other additions that utilize free space--DCA is a special case, as I've already mentioned, and even then the construction walls aren't obtrusive at all outside BVS (which is the main entrance for crying out loud, how many times has a theme park needed to re-do that?!).

  8. #53

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Either way, Universal is upping their game while Disney is not--DCA needed a makeover because it's current state was hurting attendance so thats a special case, but it takes a great company to be improving while they're already ahead (like Disney used to do, when in 1959 they opened 4 E-tickets simultaneously). That's where they've been losing magic, IMO.
    Just because Disney has not announced their new projects yet does not mean they do not exist. There are some huge plans for the Disneyland Resort, many of which have not been seen before. Disney has absolutely upped their game, yet have been very tight-lipped about recent projects for obvious reasons.

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    I do find it kind of weird that Disney is even being measured by an also-ran like Universal. Disney doesn't need competition with Harry Potter or Despicable Me. Disney's only competition is with itself. Universal's slate of new attractions is finally starting to bring it up to Disney's level, but it has a long way to go before anybody but hardcore, anti-Disney Potterheads are making Universal their destination instead of Disney.


  10. #55

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan95 View Post
    Just because Disney has not announced their new projects yet does not mean they do not exist. There are some huge plans for the Disneyland Resort, many of which have not been seen before. Disney has absolutely upped their game, yet have been very tight-lipped about recent projects for obvious reasons.
    That means that they're not final (and seriously, when has Disney been tight lipped about anything there have never been any 'surprises' to the park), and until I see a source I can't use this assumption to change my mind about how Disney is running. To me they're still more about marketing than magic.

    ---------- Post added 03-04-2012 at 03:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Gross View Post
    I do find it kind of weird that Disney is even being measured by an also-ran like Universal. Disney doesn't need competition with Harry Potter or Despicable Me. Disney's only competition is with itself. Universal's slate of new attractions is finally starting to bring it up to Disney's level, but it has a long way to go before anybody but hardcore, anti-Disney Potterheads are making Universal their destination instead of Disney.
    Obviously Disney is still a ways beyond Universal in a lot of departments. But we're talking about theme park magic at this very moment, and in that regard, Universal is doing better than Disney. They're adding more for the sake of enhancing guest experiences...it might not be much longer before they catch up with Disney in prestige if they continue at the rate theyre going.
    Sure Disneys attendance will stay up because of nostalgia, but that doesn't change the fact that they've been sort of sitting back and relying on their name (and not innovation and plussing the experience) to make people happy the last few years. That's why I personally believe Disney's magical quality is wearing thim

  11. #56

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    That means that they're not final...
    Actually, there are big plans for Disneyland that are very final and were slated to be announced last August, but were pulled at the last minute. Expect an announcement sooner than later.

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    No one ever mentions Shanghai Disney Resort, the new show at DLP, or any of the projects outside the US. They are building plenty of new experiences outside the US parks. Last I checked building a new Theme park was a big deal compared to a new parade (Disneyland got one last year), a new simulator (Disneyland and DHS got an upgraded one last year), a new water show (DCA got one 2 years ago and DLP is getting one this year), and an expansion/ addition (DCA, Magic Kingdom, and HKDL have/ currently are getting expansions and AK is getting one in the next few years. USO & USH are each getting potter expansions but neither will be even close to the size and scale of DCA/ the MK's Fantasyland expansion from what I've heard.) Not to mention TDS is getting TSMM, TDL is getting ST:TAC, HKDL is getting Mystic Manor which last I checked was a very cutting edge technical ride system that has only been used for one other ride as far as I know. The idea that Disney is not attempting to push the envelope is kind of silly to me. Just because they aren't currently doing amazing things in Disneyland (as far as we know they may announce something that completely blows us away in the next few years) does not mean that they aren't looking for new ways to push the envelope of theme park "magic". Universal has finally started putting effort into their parks but that doesn't mean that Disney hasn't, it just means that Disney has been focusing else where currently.
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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco21 View Post
    No one ever mentions Shanghai Disney Resort, the new show at DLP, or any of the projects outside the US. They are building plenty of new experiences outside the US parks. Last I checked building a new Theme park was a big deal compared to a new parade (Disneyland got one last year), a new simulator (Disneyland and DHS got an upgraded one last year), a new water show (DCA got one 2 years ago and DLP is getting one this year), and an expansion/ addition (DCA, Magic Kingdom, and HKDL have/ currently are getting expansions and AK is getting one in the next few years. USO & USH are each getting potter expansions but neither will be even close to the size and scale of DCA/ the MK's Fantasyland expansion from what I've heard.) Not to mention TDS is getting TSMM, TDL is getting ST:TAC, HKDL is getting Mystic Manor which last I checked was a very cutting edge technical ride system that has only been used for one other ride as far as I know. The idea that Disney is not attempting to push the envelope is kind of silly to me. Just because they aren't currently doing amazing things in Disneyland (as far as we know they may announce something that completely blows us away in the next few years) does not mean that they aren't looking for new ways to push the envelope of theme park "magic". Universal has finally started putting effort into their parks but that doesn't mean that Disney hasn't, it just means that Disney has been focusing else where currently.
    This thread is about Disneyland's magic wearing thin. Not the other parks. Granted, it's unfair for me then to compare DL to Universal Orlando, but I'm simply using them as a basis for what theme parks I do think are doing it right.

    And just a sidenote, Universal added US Singapore and is adding US Dubailand within a few years of each other, so it's not like Disney is ahead of the game in that department

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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Obviously Disney is still a ways beyond Universal in a lot of departments. But we're talking about theme park magic at this very moment, and in that regard, Universal is doing better than Disney. They're adding more for the sake of enhancing guest experiences...it might not be much longer before they catch up with Disney in prestige if they continue at the rate theyre going.
    Sure Disneys attendance will stay up because of nostalgia, but that doesn't change the fact that they've been sort of sitting back and relying on their name (and not innovation and plussing the experience) to make people happy the last few years. That's why I personally believe Disney's magical quality is wearing thim
    Exactly. The main sources of Disneyland's magic are still the concepts, philosophies and attractions that were set in place before the Eisger Era. By comparison, in the last two decades they've declined in many areas -- top-class Disneyland magic being one of them. Instead of excelling at the kind of creative innovation and from-the-heart showmanship that made Disneyland famous, they excel at brand marketing.


    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    This thread is about Disneyland's magic wearing thin. Not the other parks. Granted, it's unfair for me then to compare DL to Universal Orlando, but I'm simply using them as a basis for what theme parks I do think are doing it right.
    I don't think it's an unfair comparison. Considering what both companies are doing now, compared to where they were 20 years ago, it's obvious which one is moving closer to the motivation and spirit of that now long-gone company that built Disneyland... and which one is sliding farther away.


    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    To me they're still more about marketing than magic.
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    Re: The Disney Magic is Wearing Thin

    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Gross View Post
    I do find it kind of weird that Disney is even being measured by an also-ran like Universal. Disney doesn't need competition with Harry Potter or Despicable Me. Disney's only competition is with itself. Universal's slate of new attractions is finally starting to bring it up to Disney's level, but it has a long way to go before anybody but hardcore, anti-Disney Potterheads are making Universal their destination instead of Disney.
    Well, first off, Disney quality and innovation USED to just be measured against itself. The reason that they are now being compared to Universal is because Universal has raised the bar twice now without a Disney response.

    While in overall park comparisons Universal still lags, in individual attractions, they have pulled way ahead of Disney.

    And, it's not just "anti-Disney Potterheads" that are making Universal their destination. I know of many Imagineers who have gone to Florida specifically for Universal's Harry Potter. And even my last trip to Florida, I only visited Universal and skipped Disney parks altogether.

    If Disney is going to protect it's shrinking lead, and start taking the cutting-edge leadership role again, they have to be aggressive in coming up with attractions that OUTDO, and stay ahead of Universal's current string of oneupmanship attractions.

    ---------- Post added 03-04-2012 at 09:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan95 View Post
    Actually, there are big plans for Disneyland that are very final and were slated to be announced last August, but were pulled at the last minute. Expect an announcement sooner than later.
    Sorry, but according to Imagineers I know, there aren't any plans in any stage that would be considered ready to be announced. Yes, there are (always) ideas and concepts floating around WDI, but they have to get to a certain stage before they can be announced. Nothing there is currently at that stage.

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