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  1. #1

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    Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    This debate starts in this thread at post#28 http://www.micechat.com/forums/showt...t=16356&page=2 and continues through some posts until post #99 when this thread was started. Basically does fronteirland include nos and critter country or are they all separate lands. They all depict things on the mississippi river or one of it's tributaries. They also depict three different times and three separate places. The train stioll hjas it's fronteirland signage but when the park originally opened it was in fronteirland. When they built nos they had to move the station and tracks 200 feet but didn't rename the station until way later. on the park maps and website they are three separate lands. The canoes are locatied in critter country but were one of those rides that was originally frontierland. Like the railroad it wasn't renamed. that is my argument to the quote in post #99
    Last edited by inav; 12-31-2005 at 09:08 AM.

  2. #2

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    I am currently looking at my October 10, 2005 park guide map- the lands ARE:

    Main Street, USA
    Adventureland
    New Orleans Square
    Critter Country
    Frontierland
    Mickey's Toontown
    Fantasy Land
    Tomorrowland

    If you'd like I could scan it as a PDF and send it to you.
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  3. #3

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Picard
    I am currently looking at my October 10, 2005 park guide map- the lands ARE:

    Main Street, USA
    Adventureland
    New Orleans Square
    Critter Country
    Frontierland
    Mickey's Toontown
    Fantasy Land
    Tomorrowland

    If you'd like I could scan it as a PDF and send it to you.
    don't worry about it. I would send them to pragmatic idealist who said that they were all one land. I was saying they were separate.did you go to the link and and look at all of the previous arguments for both sides?

  4. #4

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    If it wasn't for Pooh, they could easily have merged Critter Country and New Orleans Square into Dixieland or something....
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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    I'm sorry, but I found that discussion just plain silly. Here are the facts:

    * The current management considers these to be separate lands.
    * We will never know if Walt would have wanted these considered part of Frontierland, as he is dead. He never said if NOS was officially part of Frontierland or not, and Critter Country was long after his time.
    * Multiple people have made convincing arguments that these lands are thematically similar enough to Frontierland to consider them one. Similarly, multiple people have made convincing arguments that these lands are thematically different enough to be considered separate unities.

    It's really a matter of semantics. What's a Disneyland land? If you think a land must be one of Walt's original four (plus Main Street), you'll naturally believe that Critter Country and NOS are part of Frontierland. If you think a land must be defined by the Disney company as such, you'll believe they're separate.

    On a personal note, I feel that they are separate lands. But I've listened to and I understand the arguments that say otherwise. Like I said, it's really a silly matter of semantics.


  6. #6

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister
    I'm sorry, but I found that discussion just plain silly. Here are the facts:

    * The current management considers these to be separate lands.
    * We will never know if Walt would have wanted these considered part of Frontierland, as he is dead. He never said if NOS was officially part of Frontierland or not, and Critter Country was long after his time.
    * Multiple people have made convincing arguments that these lands are thematically similar enough to Frontierland to consider them one. Similarly, multiple people have made convincing arguments that these lands are thematically different enough to be considered separate unities.

    It's really a matter of semantics. What's a Disneyland land? If you think a land must be one of Walt's original four (plus Main Street), you'll naturally believe that Critter Country and NOS are part of Frontierland. If you think a land must be defined by the Disney company as such, you'll believe they're separate.

    On a personal note, I feel that they are separate lands. But I've listened to and I understand the arguments that say otherwise. Like I said, it's really a silly matter of semantics.
    If one could argue that New Orleans Square is an extention of Frontierland another could easily argue it's historically been an extention of Adventureland as explained in Jason Surrell's book: Pirates of the Caribbean: From the Magic Kingdom to the Movies

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirates of the Caribbean: From the Magic Kingdom to the Movies (Pg. 15)
    "In fact, one of the first renderings of just such a New Orleans-themed area (then envisioned as a subset of Adventureland, or "True Life Land," as it is labled on the drawing) pre-dates the opening of the Park with Herb Ryman's 1954 concept sketch . . . "
    Of course the inspiration of New Orleans appeared in architecture later found in Frontierland, but that's beside the point. New Orleans Square as we know it today has been historically known to be the first "new land" that Walt Disney added to Disneyland, of which he boasted cost him more than the park did when it opened in 1955. Walt Disney was certainly proud, very proud, of his new Queen of the Delta, yet its interesting that there are no Walt Disney quotes of him saying this is a land of its own.

    However, according to Surrell:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirates of the Caribbean: From the Magic Kingdom to the Movies (Pg. 18)
    "Walt ultimately decided to "spin off" New Orleans Square into a land all its own, extending its northern border even further to make room for the displaced Haunted House."

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  7. #7

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    All theories aside, here's my take (which doesn't mean a thing)

    If you say, "Let's go to TomorrowLand to ride Space Mountain" then TomorrowLand is a land.

    If you say, "Let's go to FrontierLand to ride Big Thunder" then FrontierLand is a land.

    If you say, "Let's go to Critter Country to ride Splash Mountain" then you know where I'm going by now right?

    So in my opinion it's up to you if it is a land or not. Personally, NOS and Critter Country are areas on their own and not extension of other areas. However if you believe they aren't that is your right. If you want a technical ruling from me, I don't know, but you have my idea now. I like the fact that they are new areas to the park just like Toontown is not part of Fantasyland.
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  8. #8

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    I just find it funny how we're all obsessing about this.

    It's kinda like how people keep bashing Nemo. "It's a cartoon, fish don't talk, blah blah blah..." But it's right next to the Matterhorn, which has switched from one land to the other. They are both on the Fantasyland/Tomorrowland border. So, it's a fair transition. Plenty of the rides in Disneyland can be considered transitions. As MasterGracey has stated above, Pirates makes a smooth transition from Adventureland to New Orleans Square. Technically, Pirates could be listed as an Adventureland attraction if so decided (well, it could be no matter what we do), but it would make sense. But it's rides like these in their locations that make the transitions throught the park smooth.

    Hmm, I think this is why all the other parks are more determined with what "lands" they have. This is crazy.

  9. #9

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    If the park map has them listed as different areas, THEN THEY ARE DIFFERENT LANDS. BOTTOM LINE, NO IFS ANDS OR BUTTS ABOUT IT!

  10. #10

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    NOS and CC are as much a part of Frontierland as ToonTown is to Fantasyland... they are NOT! Plain and simple. ToonTown is not part of Fantasyland and NOS and CC are NOT part of Frontierland. To be sure the lands bleed naturally into each other but they are NOT the same land. The Disneyland website currently says you can "explore eight fantastic "lands" of nostalgia, color and delight."

    Each land does have parts, to be sure. Frontierland, for instance has Zocalo Park and Big Thunder Ranch and the former Festival Arena. Main Street has Plaza Gardens, Central Plaza, and Town Square. Fantasyland has Snow White Grotto and Ariel's Grotto. But these are not lands, they are PART of their respective lands. CC, TT, and NOS are lands.
    Last edited by dlfreak; 12-25-2005 at 12:42 AM.
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  11. #11

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    I think everyone is missing the point.

    I object to the bastardization to which New Orleans Square and Critter Country have both been subjected since Paul Pressler descended on The Magic Kingdom.

    Walt Disney's New Orleans Square is set before 1866 because he explicitly said so. He also used the words, "... when she was the gay Paris of the American frontier". I don't know how anyone can argue with the creator of New Orleans Square or see any other meaning in his words.

    Bear Country occupied the former Indian Village of Frontierland. The Indian Village was, incidentally, on the opposite side of New Orleans Square, so guests first had to walk through N.O.S. to reach this other part of Frontierland.

    Prominent "imagineer", Tony Baxter, said that he had always had a problem with Bear Country since he thought that guests would move through New Orleans Square "and, essentially, re-enter Frontierland". So, Baxter began to think of ways to make the progression a little more seamless. His initial idea was to create something he referred to as "Dixieland", which was a combination of New Orleans Square and Bear Country. Guests would, in that way, move from the port city to the backwoods and bayous of the American South.

    This idea was scrapped in favor of a renaming of Bear Country to "Critter Country" with the addition of Splash Mountain, which is inspired by the Uncle Remus stories of Joel Chandler Harris, as well as "Song of the South", the Academy Award-winning film by Walt Disney.

    Critter Country is now a little more tied to the American South, and to the antebellum period. This is just one of the reasons The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh is not appropriate.

    Incidentally, the Mark Twain Riverboat, an official Frontierland attraction, not only tours New Orleans Square and Critter Country; the riverboat narration refers, specifically, to attractions like The Haunted Mansion and Splash Mountain, which are, by the definition of some, not located in the Realm of Frontierland.

    The distinction is important. Walt Disney Imagineering goes to great lengths to establish visual barriers between each Realm, but there are no such barriers between New Orleans Square, Critter Country, and the rest of Frontierland because these areas are, in actuality, part of a cohesive whole.

    For these reasons, I cringe every time I hear "She's a Brickhouse" being played by a contemporary jazz band there and every time I see toy tigers and elephants cavorting with a British child through the area.

  12. #12

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    Quote Originally Posted by inav
    They also depict three different times and three separate places.
    I strongly disagree. You are sorely mistaken about the different time periods. And, the settings depicted are all much more geographically homogenous than any other part of Disneyland.

    Quote Originally Posted by inav
    The train stioll hjas it's fronteirland signage but when the park originally opened it was in fronteirland. When they built nos they had to move the station and tracks 200 feet but didn't rename the station until way later.
    The Frontierland signage was added after New Orleans Square was built. And, the original Frontierland Station building is still there on the other side of the tracks in what some people apparently maintain is not Frontierland.

    As a former conductor of the Disneyland Railroad, I also would like to correct your misstatement of the facts regarding the depot. It has never been renamed. It is still Frontierland Station to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by inav
    The canoes are locatied in critter country but were one of those rides that was originally frontierland. Like the railroad it wasn't renamed. that is my argument to the quote in post #99
    Actually, the Davy Crockett Explorer Canoes were renamed in honor of Davy Crockett when the Indian Village became Bear Country. So, you just made my argument for me. Originally, they were called the Indian War Canoes, and the original creators of Bear Country changed the name of the attraction in 1971. Davy Crockett rose to fame as part of the "Frontierland" portion of the "Disneyland" television series, so I don't think there can be any question as to original design intent in that regard, either.

    Davy killed him a b'ar when he was only three, after all.

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  13. #13

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey
    If one could argue that New Orleans Square is an extention of Frontierland another could easily argue it's historically been an extention of Adventureland as explained in Jason Surrell's book: Pirates of the Caribbean: From the Magic Kingdom to the Movies
    I wonder if Jason Surrell is correct because, for the life of me, I cannot see how New Orleans has anything to do with the concept of adventure. Adventureland is filled with the people and places of the foreign and the exotic, both of which New Orleans is not, while Frontierland, conversely, always had a New Orleans section from 1955 onward.

    I am much more inclined to believe that an attraction about pirates was originally considered for Adventureland since many Disney adventure stories featured pirates, including "Treasure Island" and "Swiss Family Robinson". The building that houses Pirates of the Caribbean definitely belongs to early New Orleans, though, and to the bustling French colony in the New World that the Crescent City was.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey
    New Orleans Square as we know it today has been historically known to be the first "new land" that Walt Disney added to Disneyland, of which he boasted cost him more than the park did when it opened in 1955. .... yet its interesting that there are no Walt Disney quotes of him saying this is a land of its own.
    Precisely,... Walt Disney never referred to it as a new "land", and, yet, people call it such.

    Why?
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 12-25-2005 at 02:58 AM.

  14. #14

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    Quote Originally Posted by dlfreak
    NOS and CC are as much a part of Frontierland as ToonTown is to Fantasyland... they are NOT! Plain and simple. ToonTown is not part of Fantasyland and NOS and CC are NOT part of Frontierland. To be sure the lands bleed naturally into each other but they are NOT the same land. The Disneyland website currently says you can "explore eight fantastic "lands" of nostalgia, color and delight."
    Well, we have at least one discrepancy between the Web-site and Walt Disney, himself. Mr. Disney said that his Magic Kingdom was comprised of four Realms: Adventureland; Frontierland; Fantasyland; and, Tomorrowland. So, clearly, he did not think of Main Street, U.S.A. as a Realm even though the Web-site considers Main Street, U.S.A. a "land".

    Who is right? ... Mr. Disney or the Web-site?

    Quote Originally Posted by dlfreak
    Each land does have parts, to be sure. Frontierland, for instance has Zocalo Park and Big Thunder Ranch and the former Festival Arena. Main Street has Plaza Gardens, Central Plaza, and Town Square. Fantasyland has Snow White Grotto and Ariel's Grotto. But these are not lands, they are PART of their respective lands. CC, TT, and NOS are lands.
    Town Square is a square. New Orleans Square is a square.

    Why is New Orleans Square not a square, but rather an entire realm?

    Substitute Walt Disney's preferred terminology, "Realm", to the current management's word, "land", and the nature of New Orleans Square and Critter Country becomes readily apparent. Neither area has the scope required for such a descriptor.

    Main Street, U.S.A. has Town Square. Adventureland has the Lost River Delta. Fantasyland has Small World Meadows. Tomorrowland has its Concourse. So, why can't Frontierland have Zocolo Park; Big Thunder Trail; Tom Sawyer's Island; New Orleans Square; and Critter Country?

  15. #15

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    Re: Are Critter Country And NOS part of Fronteirland

    OMG...who cares...it's am amuement park...geez...i thought this was some kind of joke until I started to realize people were being serious...then I stopped reading...*whew*...and *sigh*...and still in disbelif.......wow....

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