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  1. #61

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmyjustin View Post
    Perhaps a hat falls out and someone needs to grab it, or their bag gets caught on something, or their child is quite the rebel and doesn't believe warnings until they try them out for themselves. I remember looking at a boiling pot of water and wondering if it was really hot or not.
    And if you've never been burned, or never seen it's real impact.. you'd probably still reach out and feel the urge to test it. That's why a true bubbleworld will never work. Without consequences people will never learn nor adapt. You can't protect yourself from everything and get stronger at the same time. Probably why the germs will kill us all off anyway with the people wanting hand sanitizer to touch anything..
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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  2. #62

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Conscious would be 'aware' of the problems and people acting accordingly.
    It is also being aware of the problem and taking preventive measures, which I guess would be acting appropriately. That is what is being done here.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Adding something like a barrier to prevent arms going out isn't more safe, it's simply more idiot proof.
    No. It's safer. It's not just people and kids intentionally sticking their arms out. Let's say someone happened to accidentally drop something as the boat came close to the dock. The normal human reaction is to try to catch it so it doesn't go over. Well, what if that happens and their hand gets caught between the dock and the boat. The netting not only prevents the arm from going in, but also prevents any items placed on the side from slipping off and causing the problem to begin with.


    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The car comparison is poor
    No, the comparison is right on.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    those are systems to make something safer in case of an accident.. not things designed to protect users from themselves and within the reasonable boundaries of self control.
    Collapsible steering columns and crumple zones are there to protect in case of an accident, yes. However they are also there as "idiot proof" protection. What if someone is driving recklessly and wraps his car around a light pole. These will improve the chances of walking away from the collision.


    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    There are
    - things to make things idiot proof
    - things to prevent stupid human tricks
    - things to prevent accidents
    - and things to make accidents less harmful

    Your example is case #4. Covers over moving machinery are examples of case #3. Fences on overpasses are examples of case #2.
    Above I have illustrated how your examples and mine can fit into all 4 of your scenarios. It is not always cut and dry. It is better to prevent things that there is a reasonable expectation of occurring rather than have someone hurt themselves and sue Disney for something that can easily be prevented.


    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Are people here really saying that accidents with kids only happen because the parent is an idiot and overly permissive? Seriously???
    Those posts serve to illustrate who has kids and who doesn't.
    Last edited by calsig31; 07-31-2012 at 09:00 PM.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  3. #63

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    And if you've never been burned, or never seen it's real impact.. you'd probably still reach out and feel the urge to test it. That's why a true bubbleworld will never work. Without consequences people will never learn nor adapt. You can't protect yourself from everything and get stronger at the same time. Probably why the germs will kill us all off anyway with the people wanting hand sanitizer to touch anything..
    Disneyland is not the only place to learn that putting your hand where it not ought to be is bad. Disney doesn't want to be associated with the place where everyone finds out that fingers get crushed when put between boats and docks. That's not what people pay for.

  4. #64

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Collapsible steering columns are and crumple zones are there to protect in case of an accident, yes. However they are also there as "idiot proof" protection. What if someone is driving recklessly and wraps his car around a light pole. These will improve the chances of walking away from the collision.
    These are residual benefits.. things happening downstream that you also benefit from but not the more significant purpose. It's like saying skid pads are really there to make a line move faster. No they aren't, they are there to prevent people from slipping.. but because the risk of slipping slows people down.. or even a slip stalls a line.. the line will ultimately move faster with the skid material. That doesn't mean if a line is slow you add skid pads to speed it up.

    Same with the collapsable wheel - it's purpose is to make injuries from accidents less severe.. not because they are setting out to protect the idiot from himself. The idiot just benefited from efforts aimed at helping others.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    It is better to prevent things that there is a reasonable expectation of occurring rather than have someone hurt themselves and sue Disney for something that can easily be prevented.
    I still advocate Darwin.. so we don't have to keep protecting the dummies from themselves for their full lifetime. There is a huge difference between something intrinsically dangerous and unsafe.. and making changes to make things idiot proof.

    The handrails is another example.. instead of spending all that time and effort to try to PREVENT bad behavior.. they should have instead focused on consequences. Without fear of consequences, you'll never change poor behavior.

    Just my opinion on how to save society...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  5. #65

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmyjustin View Post
    Disneyland is not the only place to learn that putting your hand where it not ought to be is bad. Disney doesn't want to be associated with the place where everyone finds out that fingers get crushed when put between boats and docks. That's not what people pay for.
    That's really what it comes down to, in the final analysis. If an individual parent wants their kid to learn through trial and error, or the consequences of their actions, it's their choice (and a good one, sometimes).

    However, it is in Disney's best interest, as a major corporation, to avoid lawsuits and controversy. In this day and age, unfortunately or not, that's going to require anticipating issues and troubleshooting when they show up. Techskip mentioned that there have been a lot of incidents at the dock. Regardless of why they happened, it's in Disney's best interest to try to stop them from happening again, and the mesh seems to be a low-stress way to handle it. They don't want to be on the front page of the OC Register with an article saying "they knew many kids were getting hurt and they didn't stop it! Evil Disney!"

    On the issue of parenting: of course, kids will not always obey their parents, they won't always exhibit common sense, and they will in fact do silly things from time to time. That's how it is. I'm sure every parent has a horror story about the time their kid totally mortified them in public.

    Having said that, that is why it so important for parents to be parents, and to step in. Unfortunately we see a lot of parents who DON'T do that, which leads to the bad parenting remarks. And no, I don't have kids of my own, but I'm responsible for several in the family on a regular basis and the task of being a mindful adult guardian does fall to me--so yes, I know it's hard, but some criticism of the antics we see at the park so often is warranted.
    Last edited by Malina; 07-31-2012 at 10:46 PM.

  6. #66

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    These are residual benefits.. things happening downstream that you also benefit from but not the more significant purpose.
    The more significant purpose is the safety of the driver regardless of what caused the accident, self negligence or an outside force. That is what those safety features were designed for.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    It's like saying skid pads are really there to make a line move faster. No they aren't, they are there to prevent people from slipping.. but because the risk of slipping slows people down.. or even a slip stalls a line.. the line will ultimately move faster with the skid material. That doesn't mean if a line is slow you add skid pads to speed it up.
    I don't find that argument compelling. I liken that to saying studded snow tires give you traction on ice and snow so they should give you good grip for racing on asphalt.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Same with the collapsable wheel - it's purpose is to make injuries from accidents less severe.. not because they are setting out to protect the idiot from himself. The idiot just benefited from efforts aimed at helping others.
    The collapsible wheel is there to protect the driver regardless of what caused the accident, just like the nets are there to protect riders regardless of how their hand came between the boat and the dock.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    I still advocate Darwin.. so we don't have to keep protecting the dummies from themselves for their full lifetime. There is a huge difference between something intrinsically dangerous and unsafe.. and making changes to make things idiot proof.

    The handrails is another example.. instead of spending all that time and effort to try to PREVENT bad behavior.. they should have instead focused on consequences. Without fear of consequences, you'll never change poor behavior.

    Just my opinion on how to save society...
    Perhaps you would also be against helmet laws and child proof medicine containers.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  7. #67

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    I remember looking at a boiling pot of water and wondering if it was really hot or not.
    And if your parent had been standing next to you and watching you reach out for it, I would HOPE that he or she would stop you and say, "No, don't touch that," and pull your arm back if you started to disobey.

    Anyway, the addition does make a little more sense than I originallyy thought it did; when I first saw it, I didn't realize that they've also narrowed the gap between the boats and the dock.

  8. #68

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    The collapsible wheel is there to protect the driver regardless of what caused the accident, just like the nets are there to protect riders regardless of how their hand came between the boat and the dock.
    In your wheel example, the idiot BENEFITS from the change - but the change was not to prevent the idiot from wrapping himself around a tree.

    If an area is having problems with reckless driving injuries... you don't stand up and say 'the answer is improved safety devices!' - you address the driver issues. The driver is simply benefiting from the improved safety issues made for all drivers, not specifically reckless drivers. The reckless driver benefits from changes made for another purpose.. the reckless driver problem was not the motivation for the collapsible steering wheel.

    More than one class benefited from the change... but that doesn't mean all classes individually were the motivation for the change. Just because A leads to B... you can't inverse it and say B leads to A.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Perhaps you would also be against helmet laws and child proof medicine containers.
    If you must know... helmet laws IMO are borderline to me. Child Proof medicines are about protecting unattended children who are incapable of discerning the difference. It's not idiot proofing, it's protecting the innocent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  9. #69

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    If you must know... helmet laws IMO are borderline to me. Child Proof medicines are about protecting unattended children who are incapable of discerning the difference. It's not idiot proofing, it's protecting the innocent.
    A kid who is fascinated with the boat itself while a parent has turned their head momentarily to look at the dock or speak to someone while is an unattended child incapable of discerning the difference between the right place to to put their hand and the wrong place. Should the parent never do anything but stare at their child?

  10. #70

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    A kid who is fascinated with the boat itself while a parent has turned their head momentarily to look at the dock or speak to someone while is an unattended child incapable of discerning the difference between the right place to to put their hand and the wrong place. Should the parent never do anything but stare at their child?
    By your standard... a child that attempts to walk into a busy intersection is unattended. How many toddlers do you know that don't sit next to their parents or other family member on the JC or other attractions??

    I think it's clear the distinction in the earlier post was between a child digging through prescription containers and a child sitting adjacent to their family...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  11. #71

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    By your standard... a child that attempts to walk into a busy intersection is unattended. How many toddlers do you know that don't sit next to their parents or other family member on the JC or other attractions??

    I think it's clear the distinction in the earlier post was between a child digging through prescription containers and a child sitting adjacent to their family...
    If I'm standing at an intersection with my toddler, I'm holding their hand because of the fact that they could run into traffic and I understand the grave danger that could cause. Sitting on the jungle cruise, I'm enjoying the ride and not even thinking that the boat may cause an injury to my child. I may be sitting right next to my child, but I'm not staring at them the whole time, most accidents happen in the blink of an eye, not because of bad/inattentive parents whose children deserve the darwinian consequences that can happen to them.

  12. #72

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    In your wheel example, the idiot BENEFITS from the change - but the change was not to prevent the idiot from wrapping himself around a tree.
    True, the collapsible wheel does not prevent someone from wrapping their car around a tree, however it does prevent impalement on the steering column. Similarly, the Jungle Cruise nets do not prevent the boat from coming into close contact with the dock, but they do prevent crushing injuries from hands accidentally or negligently coming in between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    If an area is having problems with reckless driving injuries... you don't stand up and say 'the answer is improved safety devices!' - you address the driver issues.
    Actually, that is one of the things that people address. They try to reduce the amount of injury in a collision. That is how safety standards on cars improve, from data gathered from any collision, not just freak accidents that are no one’s fault. The driver issue would be addressed as well, don’t get me wrong but definitely safety standards are looked at.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Child Proof medicines are about protecting unattended children who are incapable of discerning the difference. It's not idiot proofing, it's protecting the innocent.
    Same thing with the safety nets on the Jungle Cruise. As Juni also stated above, should a parent become momentarily distracted the nets will keep the kid safe as no parent is able to stare at nothing but their kid for the entire time at the park. It is Disneyland, there are several things to catch the eye and it only takes a split second for the kid to stick a hand into danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    By your standard... a child that attempts to walk into a busy intersection is unattended. How many toddlers do you know that don't sit next to their parents or other family member on the JC or other attractions??
    The intersection is a poor example. A parent knows and appreciates the danger of a busy intersection. However, Disneyland presents a feeling of safety. One doesn’t expect their kid’s hand to get squished on a ride. Therefore, a parent will also be taking in the surroundings as well as watching the kid. The ride vehicle on the Jungle Cruise is a boat. There is only so far a person could go. Knowing this, there really is no need for a parent to hold tightly on to their kid like they would at an intersection.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  13. #73

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    Hey, if Disney chooses to take it upon themselves to do the parentsí job for them, thatís their business.

    What I disagreed with was the premise that was being put forth, that itís inherently impossible for children to follow the basic safety instructions that have been given to them, and that itís impossible for their parents to see that they do. If the parents choose not to, thatís one thing, but I donít see the point in pretending that theyíre not capable of it, since they did it just fine for decades.
    I'm a parent who keeps close tabs on my kids and keeps them within reasonable and safe limits whenever we're in public. I'll drop a safety / morality spiel on my kids at any time if I need to.

    Disneyland has a responsibility to operate a safe park. If the single lap bars on Big Thunder Mountain Railroad are deemed to be safe enough to keep smaller riders from sliding right out the side of the car (or from being crushed by a larger co-rider), then they have fulfilled their responsibility to keeping the guest safe. I personally don't feel that the restraint system on that attraction is safe enough, but I don't design rides and it appears that it has been operating since the mid-70s without a rider lost.

    Kids - even ones who are raised to be responsible and respectful - can suffer from that dog-like SQUIRREL!!! syndrome, where they suddenly bolt in one direction with little or no warning. Disney, being a park designed for families, must design their attractions to answer to both ends of the behavior spectrum. In between the perfect angel children and the miscreants I've read about in this thread are plenty of people who simply trip over invisible cracks in the pavement or walk headfirst into plate glass windows.

    Disney has to do what they can to keep us safe and we should be less outraged when they take it upon themselves to do so before someone is seriously injured or killed.

  14. #74

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    The intersection is a poor example. A parent knows and appreciates the danger of a busy intersection. However, Disneyland presents a feeling of safety. One doesn’t expect their kid’s hand to get squished on a ride. Therefore, a parent will also be taking in the surroundings as well as watching the kid.
    If the parent chooses to CLOSE THEIR EARS when the Skip tells them again... keep your hands inside the boat and warns them about the dock as they approach the dock.. and doesn't take that opportunity to pay attention to their child - then yes, they fall in the idiot category of we should let darwin speak.

    This isn't happening randomly - it's happening during a specific part of the ride where guests are told and warned about. If you fail to heed those warnings and in turn fail to watch over those dependent on you. I put the blame on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  15. #75

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    Re: Children Discourged From Riding Jungle Cruise?

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    How is being more safety concious stupid?
    He's talking about the people who can't take care of themselves or their children.

    ---------- Post added 08-01-2012 at 01:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    I am curious how they would "keep the solution at the dock". The issue is actually between the boat and the dock so the boat cannot be removed from the equation. There is nothing feasible that they could do to the dock to stop people from getting their hands pinched because you will always have something that the boats come close to, and therefor something that you can pinch your hand with.
    Well that's how children will learn not to stick their hands out of the boat and parents to learn to watch their kids.

    ---------- Post added 08-01-2012 at 01:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    A kid who is fascinated with the boat itself while a parent has turned their head momentarily to look at the dock or speak to someone while is an unattended child incapable of discerning the difference between the right place to to put their hand and the wrong place. Should the parent never do anything but stare at their child?
    There's always a "but what if" or an extreme example. Yes, that's it. Never do anything but stare at your child.

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