People mover not coming back, Subs staying?

[JerrodDRagon]

I was there for Tony Baxter's presentation and here is some of what he said and showed us. Tinkermonkey can back me up on this.

Princess Fantasy Faire has some cute little details, like a Figaro animatronic that sits up on a window sil, napping, but then wakes up and watches a bird in a bird cage.

The Submarine Voyage is not going anywhere (at least for now) as they just spent a lot of money on it. He was saying that the sub show building goes back almost all the way to where Small World is. That is part of the reason that they have never developed the old Motorboat dock area.

Alice in Wonderland's ugly tarp and rails will be removed to rails that can retract when they are not needed.

The Peoplemover.
He said that it will not be back in ANY form and asked us to get this information out there. There are a couple reasons why.
1. The track has badly deteriorated in several spots.
2. OSHA regulations would require a TON of changes. First they would have to add railings to the entire track. Second they would have to add stairways and other means to get down all along the track in case of evacuation. Third they would need to enclose the track so that people could not reach out to touch the side of the buildings as you travel along the track.

Tony said that they have tired many different ideas to try to get a ride that worked there, but nothing really worked. He really wants it there. Unfortunately, no one thought to ask when is the track was going to come down.

Yeah...ok now I want the Subs gone....the amount of land this one...Ok ride is sitting on is too much.....

I know some will miss it but...I can tell you 2 new E tickets for Tomorrowland and room for a new subland and new dark ride in Fantasyland will be more then worth getting the Subs, inntoventions and Autopia

[almandot]

The Peoplemover.
He said that it will not be back in ANY form and asked us to get this information out there. There are a couple reasons why.
1. The track has badly deteriorated in several spots.
2. OSHA regulations would require a TON of changes. First they would have to add railings to the entire track. Second they would have to add stairways and other means to get down all along the track in case of evacuation. Third they would need to enclose the track so that people could not reach out to touch the side of the buildings as you travel along the track.

Tony said that they have tired many different ideas to try to get a ride that worked there, but nothing really worked. He really wants it there. Unfortunately, no one thought to ask when is the track was going to come down.

That's fine and dandy. I just never ever want to see another construction wall in the parks quoting "It's kind of fun to do the impossible." Though those little quote walls are usually used at WDW where I don't want to see them simply because they use quotes like that when they're just repainting a facade. I know asking that management to keep things fresh is difficult but we don't need the reminder.


I'm sure they really did try and get something proposed, and things like those Incredible pods had some basis on a real proposal that just couldn't pan out. On the one hand it's so very frustrating because that 98 Tomorrowland has ruined most of the land's atmospheric feel that could only be revitalized by a renovation on the scale of the one in the 60's.. On the other hand.. they're looking at tearing down Innovations, Captain EO is stagnant and that theater's expendable anyways, and the whole middle of the land is taken up by something they don't want there anymore... They could easily do one of those mass-land renovations at this point without effecting much. Tear down the entrance rocks and the front portion of the peoplemover to get some walking space added, add a detour back-entrance to space mountain and star tours exit, and shut down tomorrowland east of the star tours/buzz entrances to take that land to town.

[tinkermonkey]

Yeah...ok now I want the Subs gone....the amount of land this one...Ok ride is sitting on is too much.....

I know some will miss it but...I can tell you 2 new E tickets for Tomorrowland and room for a new subland and new dark ride in Fantasyland will be more then worth getting the Subs, inntoventions and Autopia

As for the land use for Motorboat Cruise Dock area, Tony said that a lot of people have wondered why they haven't used that space for anything new. Many ideas have been considered but the issue is that that area has the Monorail running above it, Autopia running next to it and the Subs running below it. With all that, it's near impossible to do much at this time.

[chesirecat]

WDI did. Disney management ignored WDI's warnings, nixed upgrading the track and pylons, and went with the cheap "fix" of slowing down the vehicles on the turns. Which, like the pylon stress issues, they were warned wouldn't work. And which, like the pylon stress warnings, they ignored.

Obviously, Disney had structural engineers looking at what the track could support in terms of a new ride. The knew that the cars needed to slow down on the turns, not so much as the track would fall apart, but more because the cars would fly off the track. Simple physics, you can't take a some of the turns at high speed or you'll fly off the track. And they fretted, accurately, over the computer control system for the ride.

The biggest problem was maintenance, they used a military grade skid coating for the quick accelerations, but the tires wore out very quickly, and the ride vehicles were literally shaking apart. When it rained, the computer system had trouble coping with the changes in friction on the track. I remember seeing smoke and a burnt rubber smell coming from the cars during that first quick acceleration. Changing tires every month and trying to keep the computer control systems and stuff from falling apart was a big part of the demise.

If the track is structurally unsound, then why is it still left standing? Cynthia Harris didn't want to admit that they could have kept the ride going, for years, but it would require millions for tires, and/or upgrades/fixes to the motors and computer system, or they could have spent $12 million to bank the turns so that you didn't have the tires wearing out and the stress on the ride vehicles. And since GM pulled out, they didn't have the money.

Easier to just say that they didn't bank the track enough, which is a PR way of trying to blame it on poor planning, and on something you supposedly can't fix. Rather than spending the millions to fix the problem because you need to make the bottom line look good so you get your bonus. There were really only a couple areas that really needed to be banked, under $20 million IMHO.

[explodingboy]

I've said this 100 times but get rid of those tracks and move forward with something new. The amount time and money it would take to reboot a Peoplemover-type attraction (not to mention rehab on the track itself) could be used for something else that could benefit Tomorrowland better. I agree that Tomorrowland needs energy like it had originally, but I don't think the Peoplemover is the answer.

[monster heck]

Disney makes it sound like the PeopleMover tracks are impossible to fix. Give me a break.

The reason they won't fix them is because they see it as an ice-aged attraction with no movie tie-ins now. Think about it from their perspective. Let's say they redid the tracks up to any OSHA codes. How does Disney marketing sell this to the 2012 public? "We're bringing back a classic!" That's great for a lot of us, but what about this new generation of Disneyland visitors that greatly outnumber us hardcores. There is no movie tie-in. Casual fans will say, "Big deal. I can get this at my airport." Why would my kid care.

Bottom line, they need to be creative and original if they were to rebuild this attraction. I'd be happy with just the same grand tour of Tomorrowland myself, but you know that ain't happening.

[chesirecat]

As for the land use for Motorboat Cruise Dock area, Tony said that a lot of people have wondered why they haven't used that space for anything new. Many ideas have been considered but the issue is that that area has the Monorail running above it, Autopia running next to it and the Subs running below it. With all that, it's near impossible to do much at this time.

The Subs don't run directly below the motor boat dock, but the Subs dry dock/maintenance bay is perhaps only fifty feet to the northeast of the motor boat dock. Much of the motor boat river was filled in anyway, its not as big an unused area people think. The biggest problem by far is that the monorail and Autopia are also close to this area.

If they wanted to pay to move the monorail track and Autopia, then they would actually have enough space for 1.5 Matterhorns in this area, so if they built up, they could add an E-Ticket, IMHO.

I think they could move Toad Hall over the Motor boat area (fill it in of course), and build a Mr. Toad ride that has a dark ride portion, and an outside portion using half of the Fantasyland side of Autopia. Inside the dark ride the computer drives the car (which helps with unloading), and outside you get to drive the old fashioned car through the english country side. Then they could use the Autopa load area/Innoventions area for a whole new E-Ticket as the Subs are not under the massive Autopia load area.

And of course where was once Mr. Toad they could put in a Beauty and the Beast dark ride!

[explodingboy]

Disney makes it sound like the PeopleMover tracks are impossible to fix. Give me a break.

The reason they won't fix them is because they see it as an ice-aged attraction with no movie tie-ins now. Think about it from their perspective. Let's say they redid the tracks up to any OSHA codes. How does Disney marketing sell this to the 2012 public? "We're bringing back a classic!" That's great for a lot of us, but what about this new generation of Disneyland visitors that greatly outnumber us hardcores. There is no movie tie-in. Casual fans will say, "Big deal. I can get this at my airport." Why would my kid care.

Bottom line, they need to be creative and original if they were to rebuild this attraction. I'd be happy with just the same grand tour of Tomorrowland myself, but you know that ain't happening.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I really feel like the amount of work and money that would be required to bring a Peoplemover-type attraction back to life wouldn't be worth it. I think it could be used elsewhere for something new, as opposed to bringing back an attraction that already had it's run.

[merlinjones]

Best bet to maximize space: Use the Motor Boat Cruise area for the queue and load for Autopia from Fantasyland side, then the whole Autopia grandstand/queue space becomes available to Tomorrowland expansion.

[chesirecat]

When I visit the Magic Kingdom in Orlando, I always like riding the People Mover. Usually it is no wait, it gets you off your feet, and you get a great view of Tomorrowland, as well as the castle, and a quick little look at the old plans for epcot. So, I don't think that the general idea of a people mover type ride is without allure, as you can't get all of these elements at the airport, plus, the airports I've been to have enclosed people mover systems.

Having said that, a new People Mover in Disneyland would need to be much, much more than what was there to justify the cost, IMHO.

Tony Baxter always wanted to add scenes to the Rocket Rods, but the budget just wasn't there.

I say tear out the old track and put in a new one that can accomodate a ride which goes at a speed between the People Mover and the Rocket Rods, and add some great dark ride scenes, maybe by utilizing the Innoventions building/land.

How long with the People Mover track last if it still has metal track on top? If rain can corrode down into the metal rebar of the track, eventually it will have to go. Might as well wait to tear it down when they have firm plans for a replacement track . . . which is kind of what they are doing, IMHO.

[Mr. BuenaVista St.]

Thank you Tony for giving us closure on this.........now tell us what you have planned for TL!!!

[DaHatTrick]

Im still not giving up on the Peoplemover, I dont care what anyone says

[JerrodDRagon]

As for the land use for Motorboat Cruise Dock area, Tony said that a lot of people have wondered why they haven't used that space for anything new. Many ideas have been considered but the issue is that that area has the Monorail running above it, Autopia running next to it and the Subs running below it. With all that, it's near impossible to do much at this time.

That's why I said...get ride of the Subs

Nemo is a good ride....but to stop 3 new rides from coming in? I say it's need to go then...it's not a classic any more it's a ride that only has long lines because of its capacity

Unlike Pan which takes up almost no space the Subs just take up too much, I want to see a new subland/ride in Fantasyland and a new subland/ 2 new E tickets in Tomorrowland MUCH more then what we have right now

Disneyland is not a museum and Autopia only in name is a classic it has been change SOO many times since it open and become something that needs to go away or made into a much..much smaller ride

The lines for two new E ticket rides in Tomorrowland will be worth the money spent on removing Inntoventions and Nemo

[chesirecat]

Nemo is a good ride....but to stop 3 new rides from coming in?

The Tomorrowland Project isn't something like Carsland where they are going to put in an E-Ticket and a couple of D Ticket rides. There simply isn't the budget for something like that, and putting in a single E Ticket alone would be enough to boost DL's attendance.

Meaning, why tear out the subs when Innoventions, Redd Rockets, and the old People Mover track everywhere can be removed and a new ride could be put in its place, maybe even two??

Realistically, a whole big part of Tomorrowland can't be shut down, and losing the capacity of both the Subs and Autopia and having all of the construction would be a nightmare. Maybe Subs cycles through 9,000 guests a day and Autopia 30,000 a day, where would all of these guests go?

Nemo has a short line, and relatively low capacity BUT guests are happy to wait in line. Nemo 2 is coming out, the subs ain't going away, and neither are they holding up the big Tomorrowland project.

Oh, and by the way, the subs show building loops around towards Fantasyland, meaning that if it was ever taken out, the real estate would be used mostly for a new Fantasyland attraction, should they decide to move the monorail and Autopia.

Can't have a Tomorrowland ride in Fantasyland, though I'd guess you'd have a nice view of Matterhorn, Small World, and Storybookland if they ever used the subs show building for something else.

[JerrodDRagon]

The Tomorrowland Project isn't something like Carsland where they are going to put in an E-Ticket and a couple of D Ticket rides. There simply isn't the budget for something like that, and putting in a single E Ticket alone would be enough to boost DL's attendance.

Meaning, why tear out the subs when Innoventions, Redd Rockets, and the old People Mover track everywhere can be removed and a new ride could be put in its place, maybe even two??

Realistically, the whole of Tomorrowland can be shut down, and losing the capacity of both the Subs and Autopia and having all of the construction would be a nightmare. Maybe Subs cycles through 9,000 guests a day and Autopia 30,000 a day, where would all of these guests go?

Nemo has a short line, and relatively low capacity BUT guests are happy to wait in line. Nemo 2 is coming out, the subs ain't going away, and neither are they holding up the big Tomorrowland project.

Oh, and by the way, the subs show building loops around towards Fantasyland, meaning that if it was ever taken out, the real estate would be used mostly for a new Fantasyland attraction, should they decide to move the monorail and Autopia.

Can't have a Tomorrowland ride in Fantasyland, though I'd guess you'd have a nice view of Matterhorn, Small World, and Storybookland if they ever used the subs show building for something else.

There is enough room where Nemo, Inntoventions and just the Autipia Q to make 2 E tickets that for sure its a HUGE area

As for Disney not putting that much money into a project...I think Disney would and will put that much money into the parks unless they want them to go down in attendance. They just had a price increase and next year they only thing they are adding are shows and maybe a old parade...that's fine for Disney fans but you need to appeal to more then just them unless they want the numbers to slip.

Unless Disney get's lazy/cheap again then I see no reason they won't pump more money into the parks giving us 2 new big rides and another dark ride in Fantasy land to bring in more guests....I think an Original ride, a Tron ride/or Avengers ride and a Beauty and the Beast ride over a ten year period would draw MILLIONS more then the Subs and Autopia are now.....make rides people will wait 2 hours for not 40 mins