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  1. #166

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    To my knowledge there isn't a lot of reference to Bowie or Boone in the park.
    Exactly! Davy Crockett had quite a few contemporaries such as these that have minimal representation in the park. Both of them were just as famous as Crockett prior to the TV show....





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  2. #167

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    This is what I sent:

    Hello,

    First I'd like to thank you for your website JustDisney.com, it is very informative and easy to review.

    Your website was cited as an article on wikipedia concerning the original idea of Disneyland. You mention that the park was originally know as the "Mickey Mouse Park". Do you have a source for this bit of trivia.
    Meville, I'm sure you can find support for the idea of "Mickey Mouse Park"(I've seen it referenced; I can check my sources tonight and get back to you if JustDisney dosn't), but we're really talking about almost a different species.

    "Mickey Mouse park" was to be adjacent to the studios, and was almost set up like a picnic ground, not a theme park at all. So I don't really consider this the "genesis" of Disneyland. There was really nothing written, and no concept art that I recall.

    But in the late '40s the real idea of "Disneyland" started to gel: Walt was enjoying weekends outside with friends and family running his Carolwood Pacific, so he was seeing in action a place where families were having fun together, in an outdoor environment, with a train being a central feature. When he took the trip to Chicago with Ward Kimball in 1948, he saw several "themed" displays up close and personal--including a representation of New Orleans, interestingly enough; and later he saw a steam boat at Ford's Greenfield Village, which also included historical buildings. When you include his idea for "Disneylandia" (scenes of Americana which were to be rendered in miniatures and displayed in train cars), and you really have a far different beast as described in the 1948 memo, compared to a shady, grassy park with statues of characters.

    ---------- Post added 09-06-2012 at 04:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    To my knowledge there isn't a lot of reference to Bowie...in the park.
    Well, Ziggy Stardust may be a bit too much to handle for some of Disney's core family audience.

    Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 09-06-2012 at 08:08 AM.

  3. #168

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    The chief complaint isn't whether or not there's imagination in the world. It's all about the fact that there is no imagination left in the parks. The majority of disgruntled fans feel that this has been a trend since the 80's. Unless there is a character or movie attached to an attraction, then it doesn't get anywhere. This is a huge problem for many fans.
    Ok I understand where you are coming from. Like all of you have pointed out the majority of the original attractions were based off of stories and not movies, and I love those attractions. But what I need to know is why is it a bad thing to base attractions off of movies, or in the case of the Pirates of the Carribean, basing a movie off of a ride?
    Jack Sparrow - "You have been monstrously deceived." Pirate - We are decepted then..." Jack Sparrow - "Yes"

  4. #169

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by D3COY View Post
    Ok I understand where you are coming from. Like all of you have pointed out the majority of the original attractions were based off of stories and not movies, and I love those attractions. But what I need to know is why is it a bad thing to base attractions off of movies, or in the case of the Pirates of the Carribean, basing a movie off of a ride?
    Oh, it's not a bad thing at all to do a movie tie-in to a ride or a show, the linking provides the Show Designers a lot of material to work from and they don't have to worry about whether the Guests are familiar with the backstory first - they don't have to do nearly as much basic exposition.

    And as a bonus, they can take some of the profits from that blockbuster movie and direct them towards the construction of the ride or attraction. That lowers the costs to the Park, and it drains off some of the Gross from the movie and reduces the Net Profit they have to pay out to other participants... If they do it perfectly, there's rarely any Net Profit on any movie - they bury the basic office operating expenses and anything they can as a direct expense against the profitable movies, and lower their tax burden too.

    I don't pretend to understand all the arcana of "Fatal Subtraction" smoke-and-mirrors Hollywood Accounting, but that one's pretty straightforward.

    The problem is, it's become an iron-clad requirement that ALL new (or classic being heavily refurbished) rides or attractions now must be tied to a blockbuster movie. Or they don't get done, there's no money for it since the Accountaneers couldn't play "Three Card Monty" with those movie profits.

    Perfect Example, the Submarine Voyage. As originally built and operated for decades they weren't tied to any particular movie franchise at all, and they were eventually closed down for "high operating costs" as besides all the CM's on the dock loading and unloading there was a Skipper in each sub. Yeah, those two legs you always saw were attached to a driver peeking out the Conning Tower portholes.

    The Imagineers came up with their first "Dry-for-Wet" projection and lighting ideas to redo the Subs, and tied it to the "Atlantis: The Lost Empire" movie that was then in production - then that movie only made very modest profits in theaters (it looks like "Atlantis TLE" made back the production costs and a modest bit of money, but not near enough so they could siphon some off...) and the idea quietly went back on the shelf.

    Until they got another aquatic based movie franchise to ride the coattails of in "Finding Nemo" that did good numbers at the box office, and they hitched the rehab and reopening of the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage to that franchise.

    It's not just as simple as turning a great idea into a great ride, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get there. Hoops that Eisner and Iger and the rest of the Modern Hollywood bunch put there.

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  5. #170

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by seafaring_ghost View Post
    Allow me to try to tackle this for a second... First i would get rid of most of the pirate paraphernalia and props, except for what would be needed to imply river pirates such as the ones that were found on the Mississippi and Ohio rivers; secondly, I would put a Mark Twain face character on the fantasmic! stage during the day and have him telling tall tales and entertaining the guest; and lastly regarding fantasmic!, I would retheme it to a more appropriate theme such as the gold rush and the tales of pecos bill.
    I could dig this. It's at least keeping with the proper theme for Frontierland and the Rivers of America.

  6. #171

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    What was the last original ride, without a movie tie-in to be featured at any North American park?

  7. #172

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    What was the last original ride, without a movie tie-in to be featured at any North American park?
    Your question specifically states ANY North American park. There are a ton of parks in North America that have no movie/brand representation whatsoever. I have Silver Dollar City about an hour from where I live and this park has absolutely zero branding at all, except for the park merchandise. None of their rides are attached to any existing franchise and they are all in-house designs.

    I think the best way to have worded your question would be along the lines of "last Original Attraction at a Disney Park". Especially since it is Disney that we are referring to in this thread.





    "I do not like to repeat successes. I like to go on to other things." - Walt Disney


  8. #173

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    The problem is, it's become an iron-clad requirement that ALL new (or classic being heavily refurbished) rides or attractions now must be tied to a blockbuster movie. Or they don't get done, there's no money for it since the Accountaneers couldn't play "Three Card Monty" with those movie profits.
    Ah I see...well that is truly dissapointing that every ride has to fall under those requirements. Looks like some of us should get in there and steer things back in the right direction
    Jack Sparrow - "You have been monstrously deceived." Pirate - We are decepted then..." Jack Sparrow - "Yes"

  9. #174

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    I'll write two books and feel like my opinions, morals, preferences, and feelings are the only appropriate way to represent Disneyland. If you disagree you have a simple way of thinking & like cheap things.

    RSR is an original adventure from an pre-existing story, just like TSI, 200,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Star Tours, Indy, Jungle Cruise, & more. There is so much appreciate that you can't if you are just going to be upset about everything Disney isn't doing since Walt was around. They even had that Cowboy Round Up and original characters walking around DCA now. I personally love what Disney has been doing the past few years and understand Disneyland's management of today ARE NOT Walt & things change. Doesn't mean it's bad just because you can't appreciate change or the current things.

    Fans are always quick to point out the negative, rarely the positive. Glad I'm sure I'm going to enjoy my next Disneyland visit, as well as the next one & the one after that.

  10. #175

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Hey so how about that Tom Sawyer Island and that stupid Pirate overlay, amirite?

  11. #176

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by penguinsoda View Post
    time to get back on track ladies and gentlemen....
    standard gauge or narrow gauge? This is extremely important so as to prevent derails...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    Exactly! Davy Crockett had quite a few contemporaries such as these that have minimal representation in the park. Both of them were just as famous as Crockett prior to the TV show....
    I'm not shocked that Boone wasn't included but I am a bit stunned Bowie wasn't. I don't know all the shops that Frontierland opened with but a respectable knife shop would have been interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    The problem is, it's become an iron-clad requirement that ALL new (or classic being heavily refurbished) rides or attractions now must be tied to a blockbuster movie. Or they don't get done, there's no money for it since the Accountaneers couldn't play "Three Card Monty" with those movie profits.
    To expand on that slightly, when a creative individual is continually boxed in by a pre-made storyline, pre-made characters, and pre-made attraction scenes then the end result over time is a loss of creativity. The creative mind needs an outlet, it needs a blank canvas. I would go a step further and say part of DCA's failure was the fact that WDI hadn't stretched their creative legs in a very long time. Even the "rebuild" of DCA was a substantial reliance on previous franchises. The company excuse is that this is what people wanted. People want an experience... having a known character or story makes it easier to emotionally connect but it's possible to create a quality attraction without either one. There are times when I honestly wonder if WDI is still capable of this level of imagination and creativity... and that is coming from someone who knows many within the ranks of WDI! (needless to say I'm not popular with everyone because of this opinion).

    Improv is the best example I can cite of creativity at play. When you haven't done it in a long time it takes a few rounds to get "back in the swing of things". Early on you get beat up because you're lagging. By the end of the night the Skips around you try hard to keep up. Same thing with attraction design. If you haven't had a blank canvas in a long time, and haven't had the "downtime" to develop your own concepts, then being handed a blue sky is terrifying. When DCA was on the boards, a lot of the guys were "scared" to put it nicely. Sure budget cuts played into it but come on... Superstar Limo... Orange Stinger..

    Marc Davis was known in part for randomly drawing characters just to keep himself amused. I don't have a direct quote (Steve maybe you can toss one in) but something about the creative side needing an outlet and that happened when he held a pencil. Some of those doodles ended up as characters both in Pirates and in Haunted Mansion! I know there are books on Pirates showing some of this art (not the initial doodles). I apologize that I don't have a specific source to cite on that but I've read it multiple times... and even Ollie mentioned it a few times! It was one of the "quirks" of Marc. He was one of the ones I idolized mainly because of his comical additions to Jungle. A close friend of mine has a small doodle of Thumper from Bambie. His mom was a little girl when she met Walt. He stole a pencil (she loves to tell this story), drew it on the corner of the art paper, signed it (with a note) and tore it off to give it to her. It took him all of 7 minutes, and he was talking to her dad the entire time. That was his creative outlet!

    Perfect Example, the Submarine Voyage. As originally built and operated for decades they weren't tied to any particular movie franchise at all, and they were eventually closed down for "high operating costs" as besides all the CM's on the dock loading and unloading there was a Skipper in each sub. Yeah, those two legs you always saw were attached to a driver peeking out the Conning Tower portholes.
    I know it is a loose basis but I was under the impression that part of the draw to Subs was 20,000 leagues.
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  12. #177

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Ok kiddles.....

    Some 40+ posts have been removed from this thread and moved to the graveyard where they have been locked so no further comments can be made on them.

    I am highly disappointed and yet not really surprised that despite a warning from the staff, several of you continued to post with reckless abandon on a subject that had absolutely nothing to do with the original premise of this thread. In essence... thumbing your nose at the request of a staff member.

    Posts have been removed. This thread will once again be unlocked, but if the back and forth continues with the attacks, asides and off topic posting members will be banned from participating in this thread.

    Yes indeed folks you have annoyed the penguin.... but that penguin is the one who has the power to also shut this down if rules continue to be broke and warnings continue to be disregarded.




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  13. #178

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    I would have to say no to the coaster on the island because that would cut down on the cricket population. Crickets are extremely important. They help you tell temperature, they break up the silence, and they let you know when no one else is on a conference call. What would Tom Sawyer's Island be without crickets? Nothing I tell you, pure silence.
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  14. #179

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    I agree, I would love it if the island was put back to Tom Sawyers. What un we used to have.

  15. #180

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